ST Kylo Ren's Future/Fate. Death/Redemption/Other?

I wonder if JJ would have the balls to let Kylo do something truly reprehensible onscreen in ep 9, something like Anakin`s moment of slaughtering the Younglings, just more in-depth. Then again, if such a scene was in there early in the movie, you`d immediately know his chances of redemption were zil.

Maybe JJ will pull a Khan: introduced in a real villain scene, then a seemingly sympathetic motive/backstory, then joining the good guys because aligning goals, then the "double-twist" on "were you seriously under the impression I wasn`t out for myself?" of skull-crashing and leg-stomping. Wouldn`t fit too well, though, since Khan was strong-willed and in control.

 

Kylo already did something truly reprehensible: he murdered his own father who was there to help him. Believe me, he's reprehensible enough. Oh, not to mention how he killed all of the Luke's Jedi, some of who were kids it seems.

 

I`ve seen explanations for why every single act wasn`t that bad so far. It was Han`s fault for being behind enemy lines, it was the villagers fault for fighting back, it was Lor San Tekka`s fault for not being cooperative, Han really sacrificed himself (and turned on the lightsaber on his own), it was Snoke`s/Luke`s/Hux` fault. And so on and so forth.

And RJ went by the temple massacre itself as quickly as he possibly could. Beyond a throwaway line of Luke`s those students might have been made out of thin air - noone gave a crap about them in the movie. That goes for the killed ones as well as the darkside ones.

You can equally explain away a lot of Anakin`s actions in ROTS (though honestly, I haven`t seen it) but those kids? Even he looked sick to his stomach and he was actual perpetrator.

 

I don't care about explanations, or reading what people say as trying to minimize. It WAS gutsy to have Kylo kill Han and JJA did that and IIRC it was so people would take Kylo seriously as a villain or something. There is no question that JJA is "balls enough" in this way. I personally would rather see the character become less reprehensible because he is plenty reprehensible already.

Unless this argument is about how visual it all is? That doesn't make a difference to me. I don't need to see Kylo killing many of Luke's Jedi to understand that he did and what that means. But if you want visuals, he plunged a lightsaber through his father's heart, chopped down an old man, and ordered the slaughter of all the villagers at the beginning of TFA, and I remember at least one child among them.

Like this character doesn't need to be made worse. He is plenty bad already.

And people have made sympathetic statements about Anakin before. I personally can and do sympathize with both characters. That doesn't mean I don't think their actions are terrible.

 

@godisawesome Now, I'm not saying this will happen, and I'm not even sure I want this approach either (that said, i do like your framework) but let's just subvert this a bit just for the sake of a different approach.

What if he doesn't really suck as a leader (yeah, I know, I doubt it too.) What if he was an idealist like a Marcus Aurelius and not Commodus if you'll allow me to use a Gladiator reference. He did say he wanted to do away with the past, and that could mean past models for regimes. He doesn't want tyranny, and just order with dubious intentions to obtain it..

*shrugs*

What if Hux is the blood thirsty tyrant in the making that disrupts the attempt at brokered peace. We still get the Emperor Skywalker imagery, but the with a coup, bloodshed and distruption of peace. Because just like Game of Thrones, as soon as you claim the throne, everyone in your kingdom is pointing a knife at your back. I'd love an Brutus-like moment with an ambush, assassination attempt and winding up with absolutely nothing except the clothes on his back. A man without a country where he will find no quarter anywhere.

If you want to subvert the damsel in distress trope, put him in a situation where it is Rey doing the saving, only she saves a broken shell of a Ben Solo. She doesn't need to break him. He's already broken. If he was the character of privilege, let him discover that he is the one now that is nothing.

And then let him discover his motivations and purpose. What do you do when you are nothing, have nothing and you're persona non grata in every corner of the galaxy? What is important to you then, and what is worth fighting for?

Not saying it will happen, but it is another dig deep inside yourself scenario where Ben Solo can emerge from the broken shell of a Kylo Ren and be forced to make some mature decisions that could determine if he lives or dies, is redeemed or condemned.

Take everything away and then give him the freedom of choice.

 

Neither of those quotes have anything to do with the fact that Leia felt hope was gone, and Luke reminded her it wasn't.

It's not Luke's job to 'save Kylo's soul', and him replying 'no' doesn't imply he thinks he's 'gone forever', it simply means he isn't there to 'save' him. Kylo needs to save himself.

Leia telling Rey 'we have everything we need', also has nothing to do with Kylo being redeemed. They don't need Kylo to be the hero or to rebuild; he isn't, that's Rey's position. I guess that's assuming one thinks Kylo is needed to save the day? That was Rey's mistake but it still has nothing to with whether Kylo can/or will be redeemed.

 

You need someone to love in order to be saved from the dark side. Right?

 

Well, given Luke's part in Ben's turn, I think he knows he can't be the one to save him. It doesn't necessarily mean Kylo is entirely on his own when it comes to being saved. The novel seems to hint that there actually is someone who can help save/guide him, but leaves it open as to whom.

I think that person will be Rey, ultimately, though others may help in the event that Ben decides to leave the FO. For example, I can see him turning toward Lando for help, especially if he needs to change ships or requires medical attention or something while defecting.

 

That's the thing. Regardless of the shipper conflicts on this forum, I think Ben does admire and is falling in love with Rey. I don't know if he will win over Kylo, but this is there. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with such a story.

 

That gives me a rad idea. Here's a challenge to the writers.

The event that inspires Kylo to become Ben again is. . .

Spoiler

watching BB-8 be destroyed.

Make that work with the majority of the audience, and I will take back every negative thing I've ever said about the ST.

 

That could actually work if BB-8 was Ben's droid, the representative of everyone's inner child and all innocence.

 

~nods~ It'd be ideal.

I figure as it stands they might be able to base it on the end of 3:10 to Yuma.

 

Kylo Ren has to be bad 2+/3 movies. He's the villain.

I personally don't see Rey doing some emotional appeal. If Ben feels something for her, and feels it enough, when push comes to shove it will make a difference.

Some people don't want to believe this, but Ben/Kylo hasn't been in this position yet, so no one really knows.

 

@godisawesome A mental attack.

I think I know what you're getting at. I read a book about hypnotism once, and they called it a "pattern break".

Kylo's pattern when faced with positive feelings is to recognize them objectively (that's a big one), and use his willpower to smother those feelings out with his rational philosophy.

 

Snoke and Hux bear the same responsibility for being the leader of a repressive, imperialistic system (call it "fascist" if you prefer). Hux being the general in command of military operations. Kylo Ren is...what? Enforcer? Commander? If Hux gave orders to Kylo, he is responsible as much as he is. Or... is he not?
Kylo slaughtered an old, disarmed man. It was cowardly ugly.
You will never hear from me that it was well done. It was ugly, together with the rest we have seen on screen.

And yet.
I am taken aback from the deliberate overlooking, discharging of Hux as a villain (let alone Snoke, but he's dead)
If there is one responsible for genocide, that's Hux.
Talking about fanatics, it's Hux who says: "Because he would enjoy every engagement, surrender, and execution. The galaxy had been hobbled by disease for far too long, but Hux had sterilized the infection. Now he would cut out the dead tissue." (Fry, The Last Jedi, page 288)
Which sounds so much like Agent Smith in Matrix ("Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet. You're a plague and we are the cure.").

You hear a similar, and yet different thought from Kylo in his speach to Mitaka "It is the task of the First Order to remove the disorder from our own existence, so that civilization may be returned to the stability that promotes progress. A stability that existed under the Empire, was reduced to anarchy by the Rebellion, was inherited in turn by the so-called Republic, and will be restored by us. Future historians will look upon this as the time when a strong hand brought the rule of law back to civilization.”
(Foster, The Force Awakens, page 92)
Kylo's speech has the same rhetoric of the Romans conquering the barbaric Europe, I honestly miss the zealous fanaticism of Hux and the first-person address (the "I"). In addition, it is completely void of the openly sadistic tones of Hux' speech.

So, I wonder why it is Kylo Ren who must bear the full responsibility of being the Big Bad of this trilogy, while Snoke and Hux are [deliberately] put aside from the big picture.

Perhaps because they are not candidates of a redemption arc?

I know my posts may be considered by some as whataboutism. Believe me, I am fully aware of the crime committed by Kylo Ren and how ugly they are. But it is this pointing finger to the one and only "escape goat" as the onyl responsible for all the diseases afflicting the whole universe that triggers the "devil's advocate" reaction in me (let alone extremely questionable actions from socalled "heroes" who are even justified).
I said in several posts that I see no point of return for Kylo Ren, from the place where he is now.
The only absolution for Kylo is to die. And I do not even mean it symbolically. I mean it literally.

At the same time I make the case of Ben Solo as a victim of severe wrongdoings which are totally dismissed and more often than not forgotten. I expect more details on his fall and a confirmation of a heavy mental conditioning (manipulation) we only have hints of in the Fry novelisation and in the film from Snoke.
That's why I also say that Ben Solo deserves to live, deserves to raise from the ashes of Kylo Ren to take back a life that was stolen from him, as Leia says herself.

If Kylo Ren dies along with Ben Solo, what kind of justice have we achieved for Ben?

 

I think this is the most intriguing part of a redemption arc: what does he do once the end credits music starts.

Ben Solo will be a marked man the rest of his life one way or another if he makes out alive in IX. And while I have zero expectations that Adam Driver will ever take on the role again, I would love to follow Ben Solo's story of reconciliation. How does he walk the straight and narrow and resist temptation to succumb to darkness? Who is there to support his journey? How will the galaxy view him in the aftermath? It's something I would love to read in novels.

He's different than Vader or Palpatine or Snoke. He has 2/3 of his life left to live. That is enough time to tip the scales when it comes to acts of atonement.

 

@Birkendoc So true.

 

I would say yes, but it has to be someone (or a group of people) who can't offer you anything.... In other words it has to be selfless. (I'm not saying other types of love are impossible BUT saying that the most important reason is doing it for the right reasons not what you get from it)

 

Honestly I'd be happy with Ben being put in a Loki-like cell for the rest of his life, but he's available for people to visit and seek advice about his experiences.

 

I’m a supporter of the Loki/ Magneto/ Morgoth imprisonment route.

 

Me too.

And I had been wondering of this...

Both sides (light and dark, First Order and Resistance) are complicit in the creation of the wars - the incident on Canto Bight is quite explicit about this as is Luke's "I will not fight you."

Therefore removing the machineries of war and/or getting "balance in the force" seems to suggest a peace of some sort or certainly an absence of wars.

So having Kylo imprisoned or exiled contains the "evil" and he becomes the monster in the cupboard/Frankenstein's monster (another narrative type alongside the hero's journey).

With "evil contained" this leaves the "good" to have adventures in dealing with life - healing pain, suffering, overcoming injustice, etc - rather than dealing with and being complicit in war. "The Jedi were the guardians.." etc.

Containing Kylo may bring balance to the Force and the end of the Star Wars. As Kylo says about Vader - consciously aware of this or just poetic justice I don't know - "I'll finish what you started".

For Disney... This would free them up to tell countless stories of Jedi and good people that are not war-related and more in line with samurai tales/wandering monks/overcoming lesser evils. It would allow them to broaden out the characters too - not everyone needs to be a trooper or warrior. So they can branch out in the Star Wars universe in many ways. Eg. Lots of little stories like in Monkey or the Water Margin, the A-team, Knight Rider, or better TV series you can think of. Whether this is in film or TV or not is to be debated elsewhere of course.