ST Kylo Ren's Future/Fate. Death/Redemption/Other?

None of this is implication, it's pretty direct questioning:

To her credit, Alliyah is answering just as directly, and it's helping me understand where she's coming from. I disagree with the ultimate assessment, and probably with the way that assessment is reached, but I understand the reasoning behind it, and that's not a bad thing.

there's nothing personal in any of this. How you enjoy fiction or what fiction you enjoy doesn't have any bearing on who you are as a person, and even if it did, there's so much remove here that it'd be almost impossible to really learn what kind of people everyone is anyway. you certainly couldn't do it through a catalog of disposable opinions on children's movies, LOL

 

Attack of the Clones IMHO is a far better movie than TLJ. AOTC treats Anakin's growth and difficulties with respect, his darkside journey begins in AOTC and his time on Tatooine is one of my favorite of the Saga. Obi Wan's little adventure.. on Kamino is also one of my favorites, the fight with Jango Fett in the rain is beautiful. Anidala is a highlight for me despite the clunky dialogue. The wedding also beautiful even though I know it was doomed. The symbology in AOTC is far and away better than TLJ, Geonosis.. what is the nosis? The monsters in the Arena,... Palpatines plans coming to fruition, the Clone Wars begun they have is EPIC..

Yes that is the point of a hero's journey... to come to a point... to a result, the result is change, growth, Luke is devolved in TLJ. However, while there is nothing wrong with a mid life crisis or dark night of the soul 2.0 he should have had it before Rey got there and grown from it, the fact that he is sitting there stewing while the Galaxy burns is "UnLuke" like.. it is a crisis that usually spurs one to action getting the old Adrenalin going that knocks people out of such things.

But oh well water under the bridge.

 

What I find kind of hilarious about the "legend of Luke Skywalker" epilogue is that by any reasonable measure, he didn't really save the Resistance. They started with a fleet of starships and gradually got blasted until the survivors are few enough to all fit on the Falcon. Luke *fails* in TLJ by not responding when his family needs help. He doesn't teach Rey anything useful either. And then the slave kids are celebrating him? Crait was a victory for the First Order! They pretty much wiped out the Resistance and none of the casualties they sustained were inflicted by Luke! Those poor kids are believing a lie. I understand that RJ is trying to make a point about mythologizing heroes and how it's never too late to do the right thing, but it's just not done well at all imo.

 

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2019/09/18/full-marvel-comics-december-2019-solicitations-incoming/
STAR WARS: THE RISE OF KYLO REN #1 (OF 4)
CHARLES SOULE (W) • WILL SLINEY (A)
COVER BY CLAYTON CRAIN
VARIANT COVER BY CARMEN CARNERO
ACTION FIGURE VARIANT COVER BY JOHN TYLER CHRISTOPHER
MOVIE VARIANT COVER ALSO AVAILABLE
WITH BEN SOLO’S FALL… COMES KYLO REN’S RISE!
Young Ben Solo is legendary Jedi Luke Skywalker’s most promising pupil. As the son of Rebel Alliance heroes Leia Organa and Han Solo, as well as Luke’s own nephew, Ben has the potential to be a great force for light in the galaxy. But the Skywalker legacy casts a long shadow, the currents of the dark side run deep, and Darth Vader’s blood runs in Ben’s veins. Voices call from both his past and his future, telling him who he must be. He will shatter, he will be reforged, his destiny will be revealed. Snoke awaits. The Knights of Ren await. Ben Solo’s path to his true self begins here.
40 PGS./Rated T …$4.99
Star Wars © Lucasfilm Ltd. & TM. All rights reserved. Used under authorization. Text and illustrations for Star Wars are © 2019 Lucasfilm Ltd.

Confirmation the KOR are not Luke's former students?
Also "true self" is very interesting considering the SG give him bullet points from TROS about where Kylo will end up at the end of the saga and are even checking dialogue.

 

Interesting.
Plus... "It is the name of your true self, you've only forgotten."
Hint at redemption or will it be flipped and indicate he was born to be bad?

I will probably read the series but the thing is I kind of want to see what they do with Kylo onscreen first.
I can imagine reading the comic without seeing that first would frustrate me.
The story seems kind of superfluous without knowing the climax.


But I might read it on release... I'll see how the full TROS trailer looks first.
I'm really aching to see how much of his fall backstory plays out in IX.

On the KOR and Luke's students... they Knights of Ren could have existed and then Luke's fallen students joined.

 

Great post! I agree with all of this! I would only add that if you were also a Luke fan and OT fan, like I was, you might also loathe Kylo, because Luke’s character was twisted into someone who was unrecognizable, and destroyed in service to Kylo; and the OT films were made pretty much pointless because everything is undone by Kylo and the first order. All of Luke, Leia, and Han’s accomplishments were taken away too, and they were made into total failures. The Jedi order and new republic were destroyed, and this unlikable, whiny character was largely responsible.

 

I don't think Rian Johnson writes movies with the notion of fandom factions in mind, and I don't think his characterizations are arrived at under notions of "well these fans will like this thing, but these other fans will like this thing." The notion of navigating a maze of fan appeasement doesn't seem like a creative process he follows.

I love Kylo Ren as a character because he's such a good (awful) villain. But I'm never rooting for him to succeed, and I don't really WANT him to be redeemed. I certainly don't want he and Rey to get together at any point, not just because in the text of the trilogy he's reprehensible, and repugnant, abusive, toxic, all of that, but because I don't feel these movies have needed a romantic subplot to do what they're aiming to do. But at no point during The Last Jedi did I feel like his story subsumed Rey's. I'd describe it as being in service to both Rey and Luke's stories. His presence and actions are giving them things to react to, but his presence doesn't overshadow theirs. He's an instigating force but not an overriding one. The focus is always on how Rey and Luke are acting, reacting, contemplating, and adjusting. All the action is with them. The amount of Kylo-specific stuff, specifically pertaining to his POV, is minimal in comparison. He is an antagonist at all times, not a protagonist. He says as much in the throne room, and then again on Crait, as if his actions weren't up to that point making it clear. His presence in the story is almost solely intended to prompt actions, reactions, conflicts, and changes in the main characters of Rey and Luke (and secondarily, Finn, Rose, and Poe).

I don't think Johnson was writing The Last Jedi under the notion that everyone is pulling for Kylo at all, or identifying with him (although of course people were, and do). I think he added shading to the character as a means to complicate the arcs of Rey and Luke more than anything, and also because nuance always helps characterization. The only other option as presented in that assumption of his creative process would be not to add nuance and shade to his villainy (because he's still a villain, and Rey's inability to see that through her own turmoil is framed as a flaw, and then shown to be a failing) but to flatten him out even further because according to this hypothesis, more "sane" viewers have already checked out on the prospect of there being more to the character than crazy fratricidal villainy.

I disagree with the theory being put forth because it hinges on the presupposition that people write good movies by taking into account fandom desires and adhering to them. The failings being laid at Johnson's feet are, ultimately, suggested as failings to recognize what the fanbase really wants, and substituting his own literary and filmmaking kinks in for what's supposed to be in the story instead. I don't agree with that explanation, nor do I agree with the idea that you write good genre movies by taking into account which factions of fandom are speaking up, and what they're asking for, and determining which crews have the best takes and catering to those desires.

I certainly wouldn't have ever predicted, or even thought to ask for, the character interactions and dilemmas as presented in The Last Jedi, but I'm very happy I got the ones I did, the ones I didn't know I wanted, because I find them to have enriched the characters to a remarkable degree. Even Kylo, who could have been a crazy, flat, showy villain along the lines of Eddie Redmayne in "Jupiter Ascending" or even Xur from "The Last Starfighter." I probably would have been okay with that. But I'm much happier with what I have, in much the same way as how the guy who wrote "Body Heat" added some nuance and inflection and just enough mystery and confusion into Darth Vader to fill out his character and transform him from an attack dog in Star Wars to a scheming-yet-sad-yet-angry-yet-hungry villain in Empire.

Will he be redeemed? I don't really want that, but I'm also resigned to the notion that it's definitely going to happen, because the threshhold for "redemption" in this fairy tale is so low. So the question is how does it happen, and can it happen in a manner hopefully more convincing than it did for Anakin's redemption? "How" is always more important than "What," and it's "How" that concerns me more than anything. Considering Anakin's redemption is pretty lacking in every respect save for the emotional result of it seeming to make Luke happier and calmer, it's possible Abrams can figure out a way to have Kylo's redemption work as a means to reward Rey's character arcs, as well as Luke and Leia's, while also hopefully not relying so much on pure emotion that the nuts and bolts of it pass the smell test a little better than Anakin's "redemption" did.

I also don't think there will be a legitimate romantic coupling betwen Kylo and Rey, I think Rey will refuse it (if the prospect even explicitly surfaces) but I don't think that's going to matter because "Reylo" will be claimed regardless of what actually happens in the text due to how diluted the concept has become since its inception in 2015. It started as your run of the mill vanilla fan-fiction ship, and is now a philosophical deep-dive into self-insertion exercises as a means to process abuse traumas. So any emotional connection that points towards Rey's acceptance and healing from those traumas will be validated as "Reylo!" on that level.

Which kind of brings me back to my initial point: What fandoms have to say on the matter is largely irrelevant to what creatives are doing with their stories. In many cases, those processes aren't only happening far away from whatever crowing voices are coming out of the fandom, they're happening years before a lot of the current theories and arguments are even existing. If it's easy for me to set aside fandom exercises as wholly extra, and unnecessary to the larger goals of the story being told, it's probably 10 times as easy for someone being paid to actually work on the movie, to CREATE the movie, to discount (if they're even aware) such concerns. I agree, I don't think Rian Johnson was trolling fandom, or trolling other writers, but I also don't think he got so lost in a noir-high that he misjudged what Star Wars is. I think he looked at what Abrams left him, and tried to figure out a way to get those characters in a conflicted, unsure, unsteady place so when the third act hits, their victories contain more meaning due to the struggles they had to endure in the second. And I'm hoping Abrams has figured out a way to take the conflicted pieces Johnson left him, and point them towards that happy ending Lucas mandated Return of the Jedi needed to have after Empire got dropped in everyone's lap.

 

Just to clarify something, 'deconstruction' is not , necessarily, subversion really.

Deconstruction is actually playing something 'straight'. You're just grounding the archetype or idea in a certain context. It's suggesting what a character would, logically, do(and it's consequences). Rather, what they would, ideally, do. Luke is just a straight subversion...

Luke, in TLJ, is not really a deconstruction. A deconstruction of Luke's would be his 'unwavering idealism/faith' causing more problems. A negative than a positive...

DJ is the only real character that is a deconstruction. He is a deconstruction of Han's archetype. That is, 'Rogue with a heart of gold" is still gonna be a rogue, self serving(logically)...

 

Well, the first issue is the only one before the actual movie so the bulk of it will still be secret until then, presumably to let the audience see what happens on-screen first as they should. Another interesting tidbit is the "voices from both his past and his future" which makes me wonder whether he'll have visions of Rey in the comic to re-contextualize some events from the movies.

 

Oh, only one issue before the film.

That was smart of them.

In that case I will get the comic on release, I wasn't aware of that.

Yes "voices of past and future" does sound intriguing.
If the recent leaks are real; I had a thought yesterday (prompted by another's post) that maybe something Han's spirit says after Kylo is defeated by Rey, was related to his and Rey's past connection.
Being Star Wars, and from what we have heard of TROS, I think the links to past and future in this film may be quite prominent.

I have felt this way about IX even before any trailers or leaks. It just feels like a film that will have some surreal moments.

Kylo's story is one of the parts I'm most curious about.
Being a ROTS fan and kind of having a mind-blowing experience with Vader's story back in the day, I'm curious how much parallels to Kylo and what they do different. SW is epic.

 

You left out the most important part of the bolded: "The focus is always on how Rey and Luke are acting, reacting, contemplating, and adjusting [to Kylo Ren's story and history.]" Our protagonist spends the film being guided by three different versions of a story that has zero to do with her, and then she reacts to that story. That is in no way a story about her. Kylo isn't an instigating force. That's what he should have been. He is the focal point of the characters. Luke's story is all about Luke's reaction to Kylo. Rey's story is all about Rey's reaction to Kylo. This is basic stuff that people cannot talk around.

 

That's what an antagonist does. They antagonize the protagonists into discovering things about themselves and choosing their actions in response. Like when an infection causes the immune system to kick into action and make your body healthy. When you catch a cold it doesn't mean your whole body is a cold. When an antagonist drives the protagonist to make decisions in the story that doesn't mean the antagonist is now the protagonist.

Granted, this gets muddied in Star Wars movies because the prequel trilogy specifically got set up to tell a story about how an antagonist becomes the protagonist on the way to being the antagonist again. But Kylo isn't a protagonist. He's still the antagonist. His actions reflect on and drive the action on behalf of the protagonists, but the story isn't his, in the same way Vader's actions drive the entirety of Empire at all times but at no point is Darth Vader the main character, or is his POV the primary one. It's always secondary, and always presented in terms of how the protagonist will react to it.

 

She doesn't react to his actions. She pretty much up and ignores every malicious act he did in TFA in order for TLJ's to happen. She ignores the extent to which his actions violate her core values as a character.

 

Nope. The antagonist is a foil. The protagonist's story is typically about them, and then the antagonist shows up to throw a wrench in things. Rey doesn't have a story about her in TLJ. She spends her time in that film obsessing over Kylo's mangst that has nothing to do with her and isn't her problem. She bizarrely fights Luke on Kylo's behalf when whatever Luke may have done to Kylo six years ago is none of her business. What is Rey's problem is within the two days prior to TLJ, Kylo Ren is directly responsible for a hell of a lot of trauma directed at her personally. Instead of caring about that, she cares about her tormentor's alleged trauma.

Vader's mangst is not the focal point of Luke's story. Luke's journey is about Luke. He doesn't show up to Yoda's house and demand an explanation of why Yoda made Vader. Why would he? That would make no sense. He's trying to learn for his own personal reasons. He faces his own personal demons in that movie. These comparisons don't work on any level.

 

That's literally what I said in the post you quoted.

His personal demons are literally DARTH VADER. He's there because he wants to find and defeat DARTH VADER. He wants to be like his father, who was (so far as he thinks) murdered by DARTH VADER. He doesn't ask about why Vader is Vader partially because he doesn't care, and mostly because Yoda couldn't tell him anyway, he's hiding who Vader actually is. The twist at the end of the movie depends on it.

 

Luke finds Yoda to follow in his father's footsteps and become a Jedi and help the Rebellion, right. Those are reasons personal to him. I like that you're caps locking Darth Vader like I might miss it otherwise, lol.

Right, he doesn't care about a stranger being mean to another stranger that is evil years and years ago. Weird, it's almost like that's a normal thing to not care about.

 

Rey's arc in TLJ is easily less of a protagonist's role than Luke's in ESB.

And for that matter, Anakin as protagonist in ROTS - the entire galaxy reacts to him.
Even Palpatine masterminding the whole thing still (possibly intentionally) hinges the large part of his plan on what Anakin ultimately chooses.
Palpatine puts the fate of the story on Anakin's shoulders.

Luke is ESB is basically doing one movie-long trial.
Seriously, watch the film with this in mind - everything that happens to him can be seen as a test.
Vader's entire pursuit of Han and Leia is just to capture and turn Luke.
Vader's revelation on Bespin - and in fact the entire conflict between Luke and Vader before it - is shown from Luke's point of view.
Everything up until he needs help, and Leia is reached through the force to rescue him, is on him.
The character ensemble is a huge part of the film's appeal, but this story is Luke's journey at its core.

Rey in TLJ - although it isn't terribly written and acted - her decisions and conflicts don't particularly shape the narrative.
You can gather from TFA that the secondary reason she went to Luke (after bringing him back to the fight) is that she wants to train as a Jedi.
So TLJ doesn't really establish this, and arguably doesn't add much explanation on it. There is one line, the "Something inside me has always been there" moment.
Which vaguely explains it, but this was already in the subtext of TFA Imo.
Her interactions with Luke and Kylo are largely like mediating between two feuding relatives.
And while we are shown some characterisation of her naivety regarding the force, there isn't really any consequence to anything that happens with Rey and Luke.
She is pretty clueless... but then she isn't trained to fill that out.

Even Luke making a last stand at the end of the movie - presumably it is supposed to be that Rey had some part in his decision to help, along with R2 and Yoda, but it isn't established onscreen.
They argue, he refuses the saber another last time, she leaves in a huff, and then we don't see him until the projection on Crait. I guess to add to the surprise that he wasn't there in the flesh. He becomes one with the force, Rey comments on his "peace and purpose" but it is so thinly developed. What did this mean to Rey?

Not to mention Rey disappearing inexplicably for a while after Kylo kills Snoke and rejects redemption again.
I am heavily repeating other's complaints I admit, but this stuff is apparent if you just watch the film.
There isn't really any drive or consequence to her arc in the film. Things happen, Rey reacts momentarily, then on to another scene.
She wants to be a Jedi, doesn't get trained, and so is she a Jedi/padawan now? The novelisation line referring to Luke and Rey being connected when Rey is lifting the rocks on Crait should have been in the film. During "And I will not be the last Jedi" I believe.

Not to mention the logic jump between TFA's incarnation of Rey and Kylo then Rey putting that much faith in him in TLJ.

Her parentage "reveal" by Kylo seemingly means something to Rey, but it is more about whether it weakens her fortitude enough for her to give in to Kylo's offer to rule with him.
Okay, rejecting the offer and going for the legacy lightsaber is a character moment, but this is where she disappears without explanation for like 20-30 minutes.
It feels dismissive of her perspective, I didn't notice on first viewing but now I can't unsee it.

I really expect TROS to do better with this stuff.
I admit I am a fan that wants the "dual-protagonist" (if that is even a real thing) concept for Rey and Kylo for the finale.

But I'm expecting Rey's story will be the beating heart of the film.
With Kylo's arc being more a "what could have been" for him.

Maybe it is too optimistic, but there is potential for a very operatic cinema experience.
They have to do this on some level.

 

Seems like Kylo gets the Harry Osborn treatment in TROS. Although I'd prefer him surviving the movie, I'm onboard with that. I think the fate of Kylo's character is tied to that of Leia. If she survives the movie, Ben will as well. And vice versa.

 

It’s not a lie. They’re just omitting Rey, Holdo and Leia for some reason. Luke, Rey, Holdo and Leia quite literally save the Resistance.

 

They seem to be really making a big thing out of Bens attachment to his parents. so with them both gone, they may think well if we kill Ben off then he can be a force ghost and be with his family and his arc will be completed. its sort of like a happy ending they can all reunite!

 

I can kind of see that(I do detect the sarcasm)..

But, it kinda falls apart from the perspective of a parent. Also, it makes everyone overwhelmingly needy...

I think it's more they wanted absolute finality with Skywalker tales...

Kylo/Ben becomes Vader 2.0. Granted, it was turning into that anyways. But, if he lived it would given a slight variation....

 

Yeah, Kylo = Vader 2.0...
No matter which perspective you at it from, all Skywalkers dead by the end of nine is a bummer, IMO. After what Kylo did to his family I get that many want him dead as well. I still prefer the slight variation, making him not Vader 2.0 - because there is little he has in common with his grandpa.

 

For me, that particular variation doesn't really work, unless Kylo pays big time for what he's done. Vader's redemption worked in no small part because he died soon afterward, good in the eyes of those who really cared. Kylo going on living, especially free and able to do what he's done before, is not a good move in my book.

Does Rey have any reason to care about Kylo's redemption anymore? What about Finn, Poe, and company? I realize that there's Leia, but sadly, I don't think there have been scenes filmed between her and Kylo.