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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Lit Kylo vs Luke - Military victory vs Moral victory

Discussion in 'Literature' started by sidv88, Apr 6, 2018.

  1. Vialco

    Vialco Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 6, 2007
    But how hard would it have been for Luke to admit to Rey that he did fail, that he made a mistake? And then say that he's still ready to go with her, to make amends.

    Instead, when confronted with renewed proof of his failure, he goes right back to his original state, insisting that Rey leave at once and that the Jedi have to end.

    Rey even gives him one last chance, holding Anakin's saber out to him. All he had to do was take it. Take the blade and take responsibility for his actions and take the first step to making it right. There's literally nothing holding Luke back except his own doubts and fears. Which he doesn't conquer in time to return in the flesh and make a meaningful difference.

    We talk about Luke and Kylo's duel and debate about the victor because it wasn't a real fight. But what if Luke had really returned? Raised the X-wing from the depths, reclaimed his emerald lightsaber and flown to Crait. If he's strong enough to project himself across the Galaxy, he could have batted the walkers aside with a gesture. Defeated Kylo with ease and ended the Supreme Leader's rule before it even began.

    Yoda did fight Sidious and almost prevailed. Obi-Wan fought Vader and did prevail. Both of Luke's mentor fought their respective enemies and did their absolute best to end their threat.

    Luke won a moral victory on Crait and suffered a physical defeat. And the moral victory means nothing since the First Order now reigns supreme.

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  2. Ulicus

    Ulicus Lapsed Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jul 24, 2005
     
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  3. sidv88

    sidv88 Force Ghost star 5

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    Aug 22, 2005
    Honestly, all Kylo has to do is say "Fake news" a gazillion times any time Crait is brought up. Eventually this will work and people will just go along with the FO.

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    Last edited: Apr 7, 2018
  4. BobaMatt

    BobaMatt TFN EU Staff star 7 VIP

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 2002
    Which are immense! And have galactic significance! Let's not diminish what Luke actually feels responsible for. It's not a failed marriage, it's the legacy of an order that stretches back tens of millennia and the lives of millions of beings snuffed out.
    The entire movie stakes itself on the idea that Luke's sacrifice, while not ultimately maybe everything he could have achieved, was meaningful. Everyone in the film thinks it was meaningful.
    Yoda fought Sidious and did not prevail.
    Obi-Wan was unable to kill his friend and student - his brother! - which made things really bad for a long time.
    Lots of people on these boards fault Yoda for not rejoining the fight, and Obi-Wan *absolutely did not.*
    Again, this is...you may not like that it means something or find it realistic that it means something but the movie is deeply committed to the in universe idea shared by everyone - including the First Order - that it meant something, and you and I both know that in Episode IX it will ultimately be because of this sacrifice that the Resistance is able to win.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2018
  5. Vialco

    Vialco Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 6, 2007
    I really don't know that, actually. After the surprise that was TLJ, I have no idea where Episode XI goes. Not sure how the First Order sees Luke's sacrifice as meaningful either, given that he was revealed to be an intangible apparition that vanished into thin air.
     
  6. BobaMatt

    BobaMatt TFN EU Staff star 7 VIP

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    Aug 19, 2002
    Kylo ends the movie extremely concerned.
     
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  7. starfish

    starfish Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 9, 2003
    anyways, before I was distracted by gi joe music I was going to say.

    I definitely think Luke is the winner here. He single handily preserves the continued survival of the resistance. It’s key to eventually stopping the FO.

    Keep in mind the FO has only just revealed itself to the galaxy. The events of TFA and TLJ only cover maybe a week or two. Except for Leia and her resistance the galaxy at large either didn’t believe in the FO or considered them as a non threat. Now the entire galaxy knows of the FO existence and the terrible things they are capable of.

    Any citizens around the galaxy now wanting to fight and resist this new empire has a ready made rebellion/resistance to join. If the FO had succeeded in destroying the resistance then folks around the galaxy would have had to start from scratch, forming new rebel cells, smuggling supplies, establishing communication networks, learning new skills. That all takes time, maybe years. The FO missed its opportunity to fully take control of the galaxy without resistance.

    Leia, Rey, Finn, and the others help make this possible, but in the end it’s Luke that ensures that the resistance will survive.
     
  8. vong333

    vong333 Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 18, 2003
    That was the problem with most of the people on these boards. They presumed that RJ was going to go a certain direction and when he didn't, we blamed him for committing blasphemy to star wars. When in reality, if you read certain interviews that spanned the internet and magazines, it was KK and Disney that wanted Star Wars to go in a new and bold direction. Yet, we still blame the wrong guy. Luke's victory was a moral one but, now a bigger question I ask. What if..........now that the force under new/official canon has some sort of sentience.......decided that Yoda could not defeat Palpatine? In the Poe Dameron comic (issue 24 or 25 I can't remember which) Lor whatever his name is says that the force comes and goes and all that jazz. What if the awakening was Luke coming back, Rey developing into her own and the jedi making the return to bring Kylo down? What of the force, told Kylo to kill Snoke? I mean, Leia was down and out and the force just .....awakened inside of her and she flew back to the ship? What if the force failed Palps in trying to fly back up after he was thrown in the chasm on the Death Star?
     
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  9. Vialco

    Vialco Force Ghost star 5

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    Mar 6, 2007
    I grow tired of saying this, so it'll be the last time.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2018
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  10. nancipants

    nancipants Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Nov 16, 2017
    As does Hux. Supreme Leader Kylo isn’t just going to face problems from the Resistance, but from his second-in-command.
     
  11. BobaMatt

    BobaMatt TFN EU Staff star 7 VIP

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    Aug 19, 2002
    Yeah the end of TLJ is basically Hux's worst nightmare of Kylo Ren, botching a chance to destroy the Resistance because of his obsession with Luke Skywalker.
     
  12. Vorax

    Vorax Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 10, 2014
    Hux lost Starkiller Base, the big Siege Juggernaut Dreadnought and the Mega Super Star Destroyer all under his leadership and watch. Its amazing he's still alive by the end of the film . Do they plan on this character still being an abuse case at the hands of everyone or do they want to have Hux become a Kallus-type or lead a mutiny against Kylo. It was not what they writers make write makes any sense so far in these two new films. The inability to wipe out the Resistance by the FO, whether by Snoke, Hux or Kylo is repetitive to the point of ludicrous at this time. There was no tactical or whatever good reason for Kylo to keep Hux around once Snoke was dead(this character seems to have kept him around for entertainment and sadism) , why even bother to have Kylo blame Rey for Snoke's death - that was as dumb as Hux.

    Training young adults never really worked out well for the Jedi, with Luke and Leia the Jedi did not really have a choice cause of their current state and the Skywalker bloodline was always seemingly questionable. Luke only succeeded when he broke from Yoda and Kenobi and he ended up a failure in his later life and once again the Jedi are partially responsible for the evildoers successes. But now, to apparently make Rey somehow will be the exception or just what they're creating I don't know. The Jedi had rules against it even, along with training more than one student at a time. The Jedi were also unsure of Anakin and refused his training precisely cause of his age, and cause his fearfulness and it did not matter if his blood type contained the highest concentration of Force-clorians in a lifeform. Now all of sudden Yoda goes all in for Rey as future Jedi. I don't buy it.

    Say what you want about this version of Luke, but Rey is alos a mess of emotions and conflicts , herself. She's extremely reckless and dangerous and has not changed any from TFA, cept now she's even more Force aware. At one point she even smashes the back of Luke's head and almost attempted to cut him down with a lightsaber the moment she was beginning to lose staff against lightning rod when she was outclassed by an older man holding back the Force and his true skills. I'm not convinced these writers and directors know what they're doing.
     
  13. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    I see no reason to think Hux is in any way capable of overthrowing Ren.
     
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  14. BobaMatt

    BobaMatt TFN EU Staff star 7 VIP

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    Aug 19, 2002
    I think he's super capable of thinking he's capable of it.
     
  15. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

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    Jul 30, 2000
    I feel bad for him in TLJ.

    Tarkin never got thrown about like a rag doll.
     
  16. Vialco

    Vialco Force Ghost star 5

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    Mar 6, 2007
    That's because he was holding Vader's leash. Kylo cut his leash when killed Snoke.

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  17. Ghost

    Ghost Chosen One star 8

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    Oct 13, 2003
    But Snoke was the one humiliating him in public.
     
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  18. comradepitrovsky

    comradepitrovsky Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 5, 2017
    Hux could overthrow Kylo - I mean, he's got spaceships, this isn't impossible. But he won't, because General Hux at his core is a coward.
     
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  19. mnjedi

    mnjedi JCC Arena Game Host star 5 VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Nov 4, 2012
    I agree, which is probably why Kylo is fine with keeping him close. he knows Hux wants him dead, but he also knows Hux is too scared and incompetent to actually succeed in making him dead. If he gets rid of Hux then he might have to contend with someone who is actually dangerous.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2018
  20. BobaMatt

    BobaMatt TFN EU Staff star 7 VIP

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    Aug 19, 2002
    Also Hux inspires no real loyalty, as we see aboard Kylo's command shuttle.
     
  21. starfish

    starfish Chosen One star 5

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    Oct 9, 2003
    I think this attitude could be extended to the entire FO, maybe even Snoke. As much as they want to be the new Empire, they are just not very good at it.
     
  22. nancipants

    nancipants Jedi Knight star 2

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    Nov 16, 2017
    Hux killed his dad. I think he’s capable of leading people to revolt against Kylo.
     
  23. BobaMatt

    BobaMatt TFN EU Staff star 7 VIP

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    Aug 19, 2002
    Hux had Phasma secretly poison his dad with an untraceable toxin.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2018
  24. nancipants

    nancipants Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Nov 16, 2017
    Yup. They were in it together. I think he’s capable of trying to overthrow Kylo. Whether he succeeds is a different story.

    I can’t believe I’m defending Hux, but here we are.
     
  25. BobaMatt

    BobaMatt TFN EU Staff star 7 VIP

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 2002
    Again, I absolutely think he's capable of thinking he's capable of doing it, but no one likes him and secretly poisoning someone in a way that means you won't get caught isn't the same thing as leading an uprising. General Sux, more like.

    I hope Phasma's not dead.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2018
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