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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Lack of respect for religions in the JCC...I'm leaving because of it.

Discussion in 'Communications' started by Vezner, Mar 14, 2006.

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  1. The Bigger Fish

    The Bigger Fish Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Apr 24, 2000
    I admit making a comment in that thread which a Mod later edited out. My comment was purely inspired by the title of the thread. The religion didn?t factor into it. Sorry if I caused offence.
     
  2. Katya Jade

    Katya Jade Administrator Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jan 19, 2002
    So "Did you ask about their underwear?" with a follow up post including the picture that says, "Just in case anybody wants to know what the heck I was talking about" is clearly meant to be offensive? He mentioned the temple garments and compared them to underwear then posted a picture. Again, you're offended because the picture was posted. Was it a bait? A flame? No and no.
     
  3. Tabula Rasa

    Tabula Rasa Administrator Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 8, 1998
    Don't speak for me. I edit based on policy. I can appreciate an image of a healthy naked young woman, if I was to approach such an image posted in JCC based on my personal tastes, it would stay, because it's a pleasant sight, but it's my job as a moderator to edit it out, because such is policy.
     
  4. Obi-Zahn Kenobi

    Obi-Zahn Kenobi Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Aug 23, 1999
    Although I myself participated somewhat in all the Mormon bashing in the thread, having seen many similar offensive material in all my days on the JCC, neverthless, having been highly informed of the LDS church in my more recent days, yea, having had a great knowledge of the mysteries of that religion, therefore I make a stand with Kimball_Kinnison and Darth_Mischevious on this issue.

    I am not Mormon, however, I understand the religion, being both the son of an ex-Mormon and best friend to a Mormon.

    This really is highly offensive. When I first saw the pictures, I was rather shocked. This has been compared to Muslims and their belief in not making pictures of Allah or Muhammad. However, in threads discussing the cartoons, the cartoons were not used to mock the Muslim belief. Sure, there were people against that belief, but it wasn't used to outright attack the religion. The picture was used to mock the LDS use of the temple garments. It was used to illustrate the poster's point of harrassing missionaries. That's what it was all about. It wasn't poking fun at LDS beliefs, as I did somewhat later on in the thread, but an outright attempt to harrass Latter-day Saints on both this forum and outside the forum.

    It seems to me that this qualifies underneath those four qualities.

     
  5. Kimball_Kinnison

    Kimball_Kinnison Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 28, 2001
    Why mention the underwear to the missionaries if it would not be offensive to them? Again, within the context of the rest of the discussion (ways to get rid of them) what other interpretations are there? Why would that question get rid of them, if it's not offensive?

    Kimball Kinnison
     
  6. Katya Jade

    Katya Jade Administrator Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jan 19, 2002
    Huh? Recent? Have you been in the JCC at all in the last 4 years? Over that time, I've seen numerous threads on all religions encompassing everything from if Jesus would have liked a certain food to Jehovah's Witnesses at someone's door. My subjectivity in no way incapacitates me from discharging my duties objectively and without regard to the "forum history". Quite the opposite. "Forum history" of the JCC most often dictates that unless something is a flame, bait or violation of the rules/TOS, then it's allowed to continue.
     
  7. Katya Jade

    Katya Jade Administrator Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jan 19, 2002
    And, again, I say, how would someone who is not Mormon know the significance of the temple garments? It was a post about the Mormons...not about offending them by mentioning it. That's reading in a bit much to "Did you ask them about their underwear?"
     
  8. Darth Mischievous

    Darth Mischievous Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 12, 1999
    Forum history was that such mockery of religious material was off limits.

    It is a recent reality that the standards for respect have been limited in relation to this issue due to the subjectivity of the current incarnation of the moderation. It has demonstrated a general inability to see the relevance of the issue and objectively moderate.

     
  9. Kimball_Kinnison

    Kimball_Kinnison Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 28, 2001
    And again, it's not as if anyone is asking for people who post the pictures to be banned, or have it count as a black mark on their user notes. We're simply asking for them to be removed because they are offensive.

    Again, how is that unreasonable? Just because a mod edits someone doesn't mean that the user did something intentionally. Many people have been edited before in the JCC because they said something that was not intended to be inappropriate, but was.

    It's not as though anyone were advocating banning anyone in this case. The only way I would support banning is if someone did it as a repeat offense after multiple edits and/or warnings.

    Kimball Kinnison
     
  10. Darth Mischievous

    Darth Mischievous Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 12, 1999
    It isn't unreasonable at all, KK.

    However, they currently fail to see the relevance of having respect for other Forum members' religions and not allowing mockery and ridicule of their particular systems of belief via pictures and whatnot.

    It is relativism at its finest: that nothing is really sacred or worth respect (or respecting others) because some other individual may not share the same point of view.

    That was never the foundation of this message board, where members would have to feel that they would have to tolerate ridicule of their religion here.
     
  11. ApolloSmileGirl

    ApolloSmileGirl Jedi Knight star 8

    Registered:
    Jun 18, 2004
    Why do you continue to use the plural? It was one picture, one. Not two, not three, not four hundred. It was one picture of a man and a women in unrevealing undergarments. If that in any way resembles your holy garments, than why are you complaining?


    You so have me pegged, it's not even funny.

     
  12. Kimball_Kinnison

    Kimball_Kinnison Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 28, 2001
    It is one picture, but three separate instances of it, therefore the plural is appropriate. If it is to be removed from the thread, all three instances would need to be removed.

    Kimball Kinnison
     
  13. ApolloSmileGirl

    ApolloSmileGirl Jedi Knight star 8

    Registered:
    Jun 18, 2004
    Cool, lets get into semantics here. It's still a single image. All day, you've been bitching like the freaking anti-Morman patrol swooped in and dropped in as much hurtful propaganda as possible.
     
  14. Charn

    Charn Jedi Master star 8

    Registered:
    Dec 23, 2004
    as someone who finds things very black and white I am leaning towards the grey area here.

    TOS warns against hateful posts. So that should be taken to consideration, I find it funny how the non-religeous think they have the right to mock another persons beliefs. Posts like "I am non religeous so I don't see the point KK is trying to make" seem kind of funny to me. I lean on EV's opinion.

    Just because something isn't important to you doesn't mean you have the right to mock it.

    Freedom of speech is a wonderful thing, abusing it is not.



     
  15. ApolloSmileGirl

    ApolloSmileGirl Jedi Knight star 8

    Registered:
    Jun 18, 2004


    Really, I never see people having problems when the religious get bad on people that are atheist, or Wiccan? They seem to be ok to chuckle at, god knows that Christians, Jews, and especially Muslims get poked at.

    It's called satire, and if you can't laugh at yourself then you are truely dead on the inside.

    I'm gonna be a pastor someday, you just watch!
     
  16. Charn

    Charn Jedi Master star 8

    Registered:
    Dec 23, 2004
    it's not Christian to laugh at people [face_shame_on_you]

    and I laugh at myself a lot.


     
  17. Kimball_Kinnison

    Kimball_Kinnison Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 28, 2001
    Except, you forget this little gem from the TOS:
    Also, as a general guideline, all users here should respect one another's opinions and beliefs.
    Or, does that no longer apply in the JCC?

    If you prefer, there's the newer Principles of Behavior, which say:
    2) Users are expected to conduct themselves in a manner which is respectful to themselves and fellow users at all times. Users are also expected to respect all relevant laws, including intellectual property and privacy laws.
    Kimball Kinnison
     
  18. ApolloSmileGirl

    ApolloSmileGirl Jedi Knight star 8

    Registered:
    Jun 18, 2004
    Have you ever participated this heavily in a thread that questioned a religion you weren't affiliated with?
     
  19. SmoovBillyDee

    SmoovBillyDee Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2002
    I would argue that those who are atheist or Wiccan would be entitled to the same show of respect and shouldn't be the subject of ridicule. Respect should be shown to someone else's beliefs, regardless or what that belief may be.

    EDIT: spelling
     
  20. Charn

    Charn Jedi Master star 8

    Registered:
    Dec 23, 2004
    it wasn't at me.
     
  21. ApolloSmileGirl

    ApolloSmileGirl Jedi Knight star 8

    Registered:
    Jun 18, 2004
    Yet they've been mad fun of for years here, have you argued for their cause the way you have in this case, or in any way at all for that matter?
     
  22. rhonderoo

    rhonderoo Former Head Admin star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Aug 7, 2002
    Alright, let's calm down and keeping it from being personal.
     
  23. Imperial_Hammer

    Imperial_Hammer Manager Emeritus: RPFs star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 25, 2004
    I think Kimball is spot on on this one...

    The YJCC seems to flaunt the TOS alot in their threads as a whole.

    Perhaps if the YJCC were more tolerant and respectful towards peoples beliefs and opinions, I would actually go there.

    [face_plain]

    -I_H
     
  24. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001
    Yes, he has.

    E_S
     
  25. Kimball_Kinnison

    Kimball_Kinnison Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 28, 2001
    Actually, the last time I was involved in something like this, I was a moderator, and I performed the edits involved long before it reached this point.

    And, as several people can attest (including DM, who already supported my statement), I have stepped in repeatedly in the past to protect other religions from similar attacks, and that includes Wicca, Islam, Scientology, Catholicism, and others.

    If it were just me complaining, you might have a point. However, neither DM nor Obi-Zahn Kenobi are Mormons, and yet they agree with my statements. I don't know if Charn or Imperial_Hammer are members of the Church, but they agree as well.

    Kimball Kinnison
     
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