Legacy #1: Broken, part 1 (of 6) (release discussion)

So there is no free press in this timeline? No rumor-mill, no grapevine? No one connects our new Emperor Darth Karyt with the Sith? What, is he supposed to rule in absolute secrecy?

I'm just not buying the sequence of events. The choices we are left with are all distasteful.

1) The Moffs control all communication and news, a state-controlled media to put Stalin's wildest dreams to shame. No information is leaked or seen by the public unless it is preapproved by state censors who wield their power ruthlessly.

2) The military is loyal to the Moffs and/or the throne. Darth Karyt has taken the throne and the military will obey him or the Moffs in all things, even the ruthless suppression of the civilian population if it objects to a new Sith ruler, seeing as how Palpatine was such a boon for galactic civilization.

3) The population is so docile, its makes a herd of sheep look like raving anarchists. They don't care a war was just fought, an attempt was made on the Ex-Emperor's life, or that the new Emperor is a Sith. It just doesn't matter to them.

Seriously people, Darth Karyt walks into the throne room, acts like he kills the Emperor, makes a few Moffs swear loyalty to him, and suddenly the entire Galaxy is at his feet? No charm and manipulation to control and channel the Senate and public as Palpatine did. No massive war machine loyal to him as Reven had. Just Darth Karyt, his Sith followers (who are no doubt going to start offing each other at any moment), and whatever Moffs he has won over. This is supposed to put him in a position to rule the galaxy?

 

Again, the Sith had been very public for the 3 years preceding the events of Legacy#1, they were feared and known, the people knew Krayt had thousands of Sith somewhere in the galaxy, they wouldn't question him.


As to how he would enter the thrown room, easy, the Sith and Imperials were working together.


About the Sith:

Krayt has thousands (around 10,000) Sith back on Korriban and other places, but these Sith are all under Krayt, they follow him without regard for themeselves, especially the topmost Sith (Nihl, Talon, etc....)

 

Krayt has tens of thousands (around 100,000) Sith back on Korriban and other places...

Are you sure that there is not a one zero too many in there? I haven´t seen Jedi number more than half of that even at their height during the Old Republic... And in 40 ABY there was just two(if Jacen is Krayt) or three(if Jacen is not Krayt) Sith around...

 

Can anyone confirm this, give me a source? If this is true, 100,000 Force-using Sith, then I'm sorry, Something is rotten in the state of Legacy. At the time of TPM there were only 10,000 Jedi Knights, iirc. In the Galaxy. And now Darth Karyt has ten times as many? From where? How? Why haven't they all killed each other yet? Please don't bring up the Rule of One. It's wrong. Lucas himself said the Sith killed each other when they were more than a handful. That is one of the base rules of the sandbox Lucas owns.

 

Err, wait, I did make a mistake, the number is 10,000

When asked, Ostrander responded something like: "more than a thousands, I'm going for 10,000"


this is the direct quote:

I dunno if he said it in one of these forums, a chat, or elsewhere, but it's real.

 

Then he's wrong. It's as simple as that. Lucas > Ostrander in terms of Star Wars. And Lucas has stated Sith kill each other whenever they are gather in any number, hence the need for the Rule of Two. They need to rethink this ASAP.

 

Power is ultimately what people give you though, if the Moffs aren't interested in being loyal to Roan Fel anymore then it makes no difference if Roan Fel is alive or dead. Later on it's possible some Moffs will return to the "true" Emperor if they decide to switch loyalties again, but initially Roan Fel still being alive makes little difference.

The son of the former Shah of Iran is still alive, but that hasn't stopped Iran's subsequent Presidents from being in charge, it's not as if everyone would suddenly bow down before Reza Phalavi just because his father used to be the head of the monarchy, the same is true of many African countries where the leaders have fled to seek asylum abroad. Being dead isn't always necessary to lose power, being forced into exile is usually enough.

It's asking for civil war when the loyalists take side with the old regime, sure, but coups are asking for civil war regardless of whether the old leaders are all dead or not, as there will still be loyalists who rise up to oppose the new regime in the name of their former leaders.

Who says the Sith won't?

And the Sith do that anyway, it's part of being Sith, Vader killed Palpatine, Palpatine killed Plagueis, so on and so on. Sith kill each other, it's part of the job.

The Sith managed to keep a whole empire stable for 2000 years, Exar Kun managed a war with a number of Sith, Revan managed to assemble an empire that was around for a good 10 years or so, Darth Ruin assembled an empire that took control of almost half the galaxy during the Draggulch Period, which lasted 1000 years. It wouldn't be the first time the Sith multiplied.

In the end the Sith always turn on each other, but while they still have a common goal, to destroy the Jedi and take control of the galaxy, chances are they're happy to work together. When Darth Krayt dies, yeah, then it'll be all out chaos, especially as he doesn't seem to have a direct apprentice but several Darths.

 

This whole 10,000 Sith thing really, really bugs me. It represents the final failure of the Skywalkers. Less than 200 years and a new Sith Order has numbers perhaps equaling that of the entire Jedi Order before the Clone Wars destroyed them. So much for bringing balance to the Force. So much for passing on what you have learned. How do you fail to notice 10,000 Sith? This isn't the accumlated knowledge of Bane's Sith Order represented by Darth Sidious, hiding just 2 Sith from the Jedi. This is numbers on the scale of the Old Republic's Jedi Order. And they appeared with no Jedi to challenge them while they recruited and trained that many Dark Side users? Luke's New Jedi Order was a dismal, complete failure in less than a hundred years.

Editted in the hopes I will one day type correctly.

 

No, they don't. Lucas stated the -old- Sith killed each other whenever they gathered in numbers. These aren't those Sith, any more than the "Rule of Two" Sith were the same as the "Golden Age" Sith. Same name, different outlook. Yeah, opens up all kinds of discussions as to "are they -real- Sith or not?" but quite frankly? It doesn't matter. They have the strength and the numbers to claim the title, and who's going to tell them they can't? And in the "real world" clearly the Lucas Empire has no problem with them using it, either.

Honestly people, is it so hard to figure out that they wouldn't be doing this story if Lucas didn't approve it? If he had a problem with the Sith returning, or with the Sith being in fairly large numbers, he wouldn't have allowed it.

Clearly there's a plan at work here, why don't we chill out and see where it goes before we all hop on the bandwagon condemning it for overly anal details that we don't know the whole story behind anyway? Generally if you let those sorts of things annoy you to the point of not enjoying the story, you're not going to enjoy -anything- very much. And if you -did- enjoy the story so far...what are you complaining about?

I mean, god forbid that a setting -changes- over time. Or that Lucas changes his mind on some things. 'Cause you know, that's never happened before or anything.

 

Emperor3171 

"This whole 10,000 Sith thing really, really bugs me. It represents the final failure of the Skywalkers. Less than 200 years and a new Sith Order has numbers perhaps equaling that of the entire Jedi Order before the Clone Wars destroyed them. So much for bringing balance to the Force. So much for passing on what you have learned. How do you fail to notice 10,000 Sith? This isn't the accumlated knowledge of Bane's Sith Order represented by Darth Sidious, hiding just 2 Sith from the Jedi. This is numbers on the scale of the Old Republic's Jedi Order. And they appeared with no Jedi to challenge them while they recruited and trained that many Dark Side users? Luke's New Jedi Order was a dismal, complete failure in less than a hundred years. "

First of all, everything in LEGACY was run past LFL -- from concept to final product. We need their input and their approval and i wouldn't have it any other way.

We'll be revealing more about the Sith Order and how they managed to shield themselves as we go. I won't suggest saving your judgments until then because you've already made your judgment. Many of the criticisms like this, however, either say or suggest that Jan and i a) don't know SW and/or b) haven't thought this through. Neither are true.


-- John

edited because my system glitched and didn't include the meassage the first time.

 

^^ I think a lot of these sort of criticisms are from people envisioning you and Jan sitting in a room tossing out ideas, shouting "Totally Awesome!" and giving each other high fives. I'd imagine in real life, the very issues people are complaining about came up, were argued over, and discussed at length.

Anyway, Fel vs. Krayt:

The Sith don't act like everything's okay. Krayt's troubled, and just because he's not screaming "Noooooooo" and tearing a room apart doesn't mean he's fine. He realizes that this is a setback. He realizes he's only in control of what he's in control of, which is significantly less than he would if Fel was dead. Seeing as all we're shown is Krayt's initial power grab, I think you're making snap judgments and not giving the character enough credit. It's like saying the French Revolution was incomplete, judging by the fact that all you saw was the Storming of the Bastille. We don't know what Krayt does to consolidate his power in the following minutes, hours, days, weeks, months - but we can assume he does something based on authorial intent.

Anyway, if people were loyal enough to the Empire, civil war is still inevitable because people would rally behind Marasiah. The coup is not complete until the legitimate power can't fight or doesn't. That's the way it works in real life. Why can't it be the way it works in the Star Wars galaxy?

The only thing that actually gives me any trepidation is the storyline: Issue #0 sets up an interesting dynamic between the Jedi, the Imperials (the IK, especially), and the Sith. With them all on the run, now, that dynamic's not worth much anymore. The enemy of my enemy...

 

I just wonder if Krayts order is somehow connected to Lymiyas.

 

I'll give Legacy a few more issues, but I don't see a way to make this better unless your changing you plot outlines/plans at this late a date. I have some idea of how much a pain that would be. But having 10,000 Dark Side Force-users suddenly show up with them calling themselves the Sith, but without one of their cardinal flaws? And the Jedi had no idea this was coming? The Sith shielded themselves, from the Jedi discovering them early I guess? I find it unlikely, but we'll see how it get explained. An explaination of how it looks like a Sith, but lacks its flaws, is a Sith. How they can gather numbers, in secret, to have outright faced off against the Jedi of the Old Republic in open warfare. And how it doesn't make Palpatine or the Skywalkers look like fools. Just don't count on me buying this reason.

 

Like he said, don't bother. You've already made up your mind, because you refuse to accept change, or anything that doesn't fit your narrow definition of what/who is "right" in "Star Wars".

I've got a news flash for a lot of folks here: THE GALAXY IS A BIG PLACE.

10,000 people in the overall scheme of the galactic population is not even a drop in a bucket. It's not even a quarter of a drop in a bucket. It's like a single water molecule in the bucket.

Look at where the Dark Jedi were (so far presumably) brought up/trained/whatever: Korriban. A long-standing bastion of the Dark Side. A place Jedi hesitate to go -because- it's so steeped in the Dark Side. So riddle me this: Throw a bunch of Dark Side users onto a place that's already one of the most powerful Dark Side nexuses in the galaxy and what happens?

Not a whole lot: It still registers as a massive nexus of the Dark Side. It's like covering a black sheet of construction paper with black paint or Ink. There very well may be little to no discernible change from an outsider looking in, particularly if they're looking from a distance. The Jedi are still hesitant to visit, so yes, it seems to me it'd be perfectly plausible to have 10,000, or even 100,000 Dark Siders hiding on the planet (planets are big too!), particularly if/when 99 percent (or more) of them are of "average to low" power on the Force strength scale.

As for the Sith not having one of their "cardinal weaknesses"....the Jedi appear to have lost their own "cardinal weakness" when Luke rebuilt them without the arrogance and lack of respect for the Dark Side the old Jedi Order had. The bad guys can't get more effective along with the good guys? You must really dig stories where there's no threat to the heroes, huh? Here's a hint: If you prefer everything in the Star Wars Universe be sunshine and roses with no chance of the Dark Side ever becoming powerful again, go watch your movies and don't read/buy anything else, and just assume "they all lived happily ever after". Because otherwise you're just setting yourself up for disappointment.

And lest we forget: "The Dark Side clouds everything". Bear that in mind when you wonder how they managed to hide.

 

The NSO lacks a flaw of the old Sith because they're not the old Sith. Bane rectified the problems of the old Sith his way. Krayt has rectified the inefficacy of Bane's order as far as his plans are concerned. Again, we're not saying the Sith don't have the same tendencies, we're just saying that so long as Krayt's around the order won't implode.

 

The thing that intrigues me the most about legacy is the possibility of having 3 force-wielding factions fighting against one another: the Sith, the Empire/Imperial Knights, and the remaining GA forces/Jedi. Imagine the large scale Jedi/Sith/Knight battles that are possible! I just hope the 2 of the factions don't team up to wipe out the third as that wouldn't be as exciting.

 

And the only way to explain that is to make Palpatine the uber-noob, lol, he actually bought that Rule of Two stuff. He didn't need clones, the CIS, or any of that, he could have raised an army of Sith on Korriban and taken the Jedi down. Palpatine already had the galaxy charmed and manipulated. So unless we argue Karyt > Sidious, that just doesn't make sense. You are absolutely right that 10,000 is a pitiful number on the galactic scale, except for one thing. They are all Force-Sensitive. 10,000 is the size of the Jedi Order before the Clone Wars started. A Jedi Order with the support of the entire Republic behind it with thousands of years of tradition and teachings. And this Sith Order comes up out of no-where with numbers equal to it? That needs a far better explanation than they were hiding on Korriban.

So again, I ask for a way to make this new Sithly Order plausible without making Darth Sidious a moron or the Skywalkers and their Jedi Order ultimately a pathetic failure.

 

I don't really see the big deal with the 10,000 "Sith" figure myself. Mostly because by large I expect the vast majority of those 10k are hardly Palpatines or Vaders, they aren't all Sith Lords, they're just acolytes, random followers, the kind of cannon fodder you mow down in the dozens in the KOTOR games. From what we've seen I'm guessing theres in the region of 10-20 Darths (maybe up to 100 if it's meant to be more like Jedi Master) but not an insane number of masters running around.

The Old Jedi Order had 10,000 Knights, but it also had lots more Jedi Service Corps workers, so, presumably, also had lots of pre-Padawan members who never got fully trained. If you count them into the overall Jedi Order statistics the old order was much bigger than it might at first seem, as those 10k were only the ones trained fully as Knights. If we rated the size of the Sith Order on the same scale, i.e. only counted those of "Knight" rank or above, I imagine it would only be a fraction of the size, maybe 1000, maybe only in the 100s.

Judging by how many Sith get cut down at Ossus and in #2's preview I'm guessing the bulk of them aren't that well trained, they're not Sith "Knights", they're just dark side acolytes, "Here's your lightsaber, have fun. Now go kill 100 Jedi to prove yourself and we might train you some more."

Other than the named Darth characters, I doubt the rest are really anymore of a threat than, say, the Imperial Inquisitors were. A threat, sure, but not on the scale of the Sith Lords themselves, instead just the foot soldiers of the Sith Order. Basically Krayt's version of Palpatine's Dark Side Adepts, only instead of calling them that he's actually calling them Sith.

From that perspective, it not really any different to the Galactic Empire of old. Krayt just doesn't care for the semantics of "Sith" and "Dark Jedi" or the Rule of Two, he's happy to just call them all Sith and be done with it, not let ancient dogma get in the way of what he's doing anyway. The Imperial Royal Guard were all meant to be Force-sensitive, and I believe there were several hundred of them, if not thousand (at least depending on source material), just because Palpatine adhered closely to the Rule of Two he never let anyone other than him or Vader call themselves Sith. These Sith could easily be the same sort of thing, with similar lack of "real" training, just rather than running about with force pikes they get to wave lightsabers around.

The only "major" difference in my view is rather than two Sith Lords we've got a dozen or so.

 

In addition, Palpatine didn't raise an army of Sith because he was a follower of the rule of two and he loved having power. Where Palpatine was the culmination of his Sith Order, Krayt has created a new one with a new philosophy.

 

Palpatine had plenty of Dark Jedi and Dark Side Adepts, and those didn't win the day for him in the end either. Just because Krayt succeeds in taking the Imperial throne doesn't mean that he won't fail in the end, in spite of his 10,000 or however many Sith. Palpatine didn't have an army of Sith because he didn't like people with the potential to challenge his authority, and he managed to rule the entire Galaxy for over twenty years without the need of a Sith Army. Tell me who's better, Palpatine or Krayt?

 

^^ Also because it wasn't the philosophy he adhered to. He admired Plagueis a lot and believed in his teachings.

 

One thing I did notice. I said this in the other thread,a nd caused a small crisis because I one was two. I forgot about ZERO.

The Skywalker's are like the Osmonds of the GFFA: They sure have a lot of teeth. I found it rather funny, in every frame, there's a Skywalker with apparently, more than 36 teeth, snarling and growling. I guess Mara got some genetic influences in......

 

Kol's a redhead. I geeked out.

 

Bobamatt.

I guess the force won't allow any Skywalker that not blonde to be a hero.......

Force *imitating the little designer on The Incredibles*: Too many redheads! boring dull Tenel Ka, and her equally humorless daughter, Allana. Mopey Ben Skywalker! This foolish trend must be stopped! I won't allow it!!

*Kol dies....*