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Legacy #33: Fight Another Day, part 2 (of 2)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Carlis, Nov 7, 2008.

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  1. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    And then Jaina would defend Azlyn, even if it meant killing Marasiah.

    So would Jag.

    I remind you Jag and Jaina were both drummed out of the military for matters of conscience.

    Edit: Possibly.
     
  2. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    I don't think that speculation is warranted.
     
  3. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    Well, I'm not saying anything is certain. I'm fairly sure that Jag and Jaina are stone cold in their graves by this point. Also, my point is probably inaccurate and over the top. I'm just saying that Jaina Solo and Jag Fel are both individuals who believed very strongly in defending the weak and not giving into the hard line interpretations of the law.

    Even if Jaina becomes an Imperial Knight, I can't imagine her killing someone for going over to the Jedi Knights. Even if it's breaking one's vows.
     
  4. Rouge77

    Rouge77 Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    May 11, 2005
    I think there's no chance whatsoever that even the Invincible Jaina would ever kill a former Jedi for wanting to go return to the Jedi Order. That kind of change, even after her killing of Jacen, is too big to be believable. Nor is it likely that even Jagged Fel would do that, war or not.

    And even if people have been shot for desertion in war time, officers who act like Antares Draco and Marasiah have recently done, have themselves occasionally tended to die of shots fired in the back. That too happens. But it doesn't make it right either.
     
  5. carr3107

    carr3107 Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    May 8, 2008
    I read it as a reminder of the rules rather than a real death threat. We've seen IKs go against orders more than once now, and none of them have actually suffered bad consequences from Roan yet. The disobedient IKs think they're probably going to be in trouble for it at the time but Roan lets it slide. Marasiah may not quite grasp this yet, or she may be in on quoting the party line, but I don't think the IKs are actually going to hunt down Azlyn and kill her.

    The deserting IK could mean a lot of things, but I've found that very little in Legacy should be taken at face value.
     
  6. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    I think that Roan Fel is not anywhere close to being dark already. I do think that we're supposed to view Roan Fel saying that killing Cade for the possible secrets he'll give the Sith is paranoid and unjustifiable. I also think we're supposed to view the idea of using a Dark Side biological weapon to create an army of Zombies to wipe out the Sith is also flat out evil.

    I mean, how would we react to someone in ANY fiction using the T-Virus from Resident Evil?
     
  7. Rouge77

    Rouge77 Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    May 11, 2005
    I think that Old Roan is as close to the Dark Side as Cade, he is just approaching it in a different manner. Cade being the more emotional makes him being on the edge clear, unlike Roan who has taken the road of making incremental dark decisions and then intellectually justifying them as necessary for his war goals. Both are heading from the same direction, they are just taking different paths, but without change in their activities, both will reach that goal.
     
  8. DarthAdamentum

    DarthAdamentum Jedi Youngling star 3

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    Jan 28, 2008
    Been repeating this over & over again. hope Cade or some Sith will purge the IK along with the dumb Emperor once & for all.
     
  9. s65horsey

    s65horsey Otter-loving Former EUC Mod star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 24, 2006
    I thought this comic set could go two ways of thinking. So Roan Fel ordered someone to return, he basically said no to the Emperor and then got to have his way. Does that undermine Fel? Or does it show that he's being nicer to the Alliance? I was a little confused if that was supposed to show anything or not.
    (haven't read the thread yet so if this was discussed just tell me to read it)
     
  10. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    It doesn't undermine Fel, as he has a plausible reason for why Sinde hasn't returned and only he and Sinde know of his order to return ASAP. That he accepts Sinde's reasoning - despite them both knowing Sinde's real reason for staying, redeems Fel somewhat due to his desiring of the Muur Talisman.
     
  11. Robimus

    Robimus Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 6, 2007
    This comic(both of the arc) were simply tremendous works. Great story, great art. I loved how they present Star Wars in such an incredible underwater enviroment. Loved the "Water Walker:p ", the Rebel Mon Cal's and Treis Sinde manipulating the demonsquids to attack the Leviathon.

    Interesting as well that not all Sith are warriors, as per Isen. I hope we see him more in the future. A Dr. Frankenstein for the Star Wars universe.:) And the traditional looking Walker pilots were cool too:cool:

    I must be critical though of the need to name [hl=black]Jag the first Emperor [/hl]. It was unneeded to the story and once again steps on the toes of the Del Rey verse.(Yes, some of us care a great deal about that timeline too). Like the end of Invincible it continues a trend of having big moments for the Empire appear off screen like they aren't worth a story. I miss the days of folks like Kirtan Loor getting time in the spotlight:(

    Giving away major plot points takes away from the FOTJ drama involving the Empire in general. The potential Imperial aspect of FOTJ is something I was very much looking forward too, still am, but this is a major point that has now been "spoiled" for me. I miss the days when I was still hoping that Soontir was Fel 1:p

    Anyway, like I say I liked this story, love Treis Sinde and the under water enviroment. Great stuff outside of the unnessessary spoiler.......[face_plain]
     
  12. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    I'm pretty sure they held of this long specifically so that they wouldn't step on DR's toes, and by now things are sufficiently clarified that there's no impediment.

    As far as your allegation that a big moment occured off screen--you're aware that the reason it's off screen is because it's going to be on DR's turf?

    And even if you didn't expect it from the very moment we got #0, so what if it's "spoiled."? We knew what was happening in the PT, but it's how it happens that's far more important.

    It's a very old literary technique dating back to Homer. Everybody knows the story, that's not important. That's part of what being a mythos like Star Wars is about: it's predictable enough in a lot of ways, but you're more interested in seeing the ways that things are done even if you know the ending. Not everything has to be a dramatic ESB moment.
     
  13. Robimus

    Robimus Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 6, 2007
    Jello, Jag taking control of the Empire was virtually skipped by Del Rey and now the mystery surrounding the throne is gone as well.

    Everybody knows the story, that's not important

    The story is important, I can't even believe you'd suggest that. I believe you've admitted to me that you have not read LOTF so maybe thats the reason for your dis-interest in this part of the story, but I in turn have a great interest in this.

    Basically your suggesting that FOTJ doesn't matter because we all know the story already. Luke dies at some point, Jaina becomes mother to the Fel children, so on, so forth. Why do we need the blanks filled in if we can just get the story from a source book or on one page in a novel and be done with it?

    I know you and I look at this universe in very different ways but I never thought you of all people would say that the story doesn't matter. Are you not interested in a little suspense at all?

    And not everything has a dramatic Empire Strikes Back momment, but some things should. Just settling for predictable isn't good enough for me, though often I am forced to.:oops:
     
  14. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    Your complaint was that the issue spoiled it for you. And then you say "Basically your suggesting that FOTJ doesn't matter because we all know the story already."--except that's not what I'm saying, that's what you're saying.

    Somehow the reveal has spoiled the story for you. The implication, then, is that it's only the banal facts that matter and not how they're done. That's your argument.

    So you can't have it both ways. If the reveal spoils it for you, then you don't care about how it happens. But if you do, then the reveal is meaningless.

    And I'm sorry, but suspense is *not* the same thing as story. I know there's been a lot of literary bastardization over the last century, but leaving out details for later is trite and uncreative. It is not a masterful storytelling technique, no matter how many teary eyed prepubescents will tell you otherwise.

    I think Star Wars can move beyond that by now. We're over the "suspense serial" logic that keeps people buying products. It's superficial beyond all measure.
     
  15. BobaMatt

    BobaMatt TFN EU Staff star 7 VIP

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 2002
    I'm with Jello: it's revealed because if at this point there was still a "mystery of the throne" for you, if there was still "suspense" over who the first Emperor was going to be...well then I have to imagine you didn't know that Sidious and Palpatine were one and the same since Episode I.

    That is, it was revealed precisely because there wasn't any mystery or suspense left there.
     
  16. Master_Keralys

    Master_Keralys VIP star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Oct 8, 2003
    Rob, he's not saying the story doesn't matter: he's saying that people knowing that Jag is the first Emperor doesn't matter; how the story is told - that is, what the story actually is - matters immensely, indeed is everything. :)
     
  17. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

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    Nov 28, 2000
    K's interpretation is correct.
     
  18. Jmacq1

    Jmacq1 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 20, 2005
    It isn't as if there aren't plenty of mysteries surrounding "the throne" even now:

    What circumstances forced Jag Fel, a guy who doesn't really seem all that keen on seeking additional power and responsibility, and leads somewhat reluctantly to begin with, to either name himself, or allow himself to be named Emperor?

    Was Jaina Solo his Empress/Consort? It seems obvious, but it's far from guaranteed.

    How exactly did the Imperial Knights form, and what turned them from (presumably) traditional Jedi into what they've become by the Legacy era?

    All things that it seems like DR will likely be exploring through FotJ and possibly even beyond.

     
  19. Robimus

    Robimus Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 6, 2007
    And Keralys, I disagree. This is like saying that we should have gotten the fact that Darth Vader is Luke's father out of the way in the opening crawl of the ESB. Or that we should have opened ROTJ with a scene depicting the Emperor's death and then worked backwards.

    With the Prequels such was unavoidable by the nature of what Lucas was trying to do, this is not the same thing. Jag's reveal added nothing to Legacy other than confirming a discussion point for fans. If Sinde had said "Fel 1" instead of "Jag" the story would have been exactly the same and nothing spoiled. We all didn't know the story already, we thought we might but that left room for twists and turns and a question of which Fel actually ended up as Fel the first.

    Everything we had in Legacy to this point was vague, now we're making leaps and bounds in knowledge. Perhaps next issue the name of the first Imperial Kinght will be revealed, then the next issue who the mother of Fel's children is.


    This would have been a lot like Legacy #0 revealing Nyna's secret so as there is no surprise value, but again for some that would be OK because that part of the story is unimportant. All that matters is how we got there?

    But that would be OK right? Cause the end of the story doesn't matter , its the journey thats everything. Why not just start at the end of a novel and work ones way back through?

    In short why do we have a spoiler period on these very boards? If the journey is everything?

    Boba Matt posted: I'm with Jello: it's revealed because if at this point there was still a "mystery of the throne" for you, if there was still "suspense" over who the first Emperor was going to be...well then I have to imagine you didn't know that Sidious and Palpatine were one and the same since Episode I.

    It's not the same thing at all. At no point were we already told that Jag was Fel 1, we already knew that Palaptine was the Emperor for some twenty years. We didn't start at a point where we knew Jag was Fel 1, we had it left as a mystery for 32 issues of Legacy, I presumed, incorrectly, it was going to be left to Del Rey.

    You suggest you knew what the story was going to be, that you already knew Jag was Fel 1. That there was no mystery? Perhaps then Boba Matt you could then confirm who the first Imperial Knight is or who will be the mother of Fel's children? If you must already have the answers to these questions if you knew about Jag before #33......................You see where I'm going with this?
     
  20. jfostrander01

    jfostrander01 Writer: Dawn of the Jedi, Agent of the Empire star 3 VIP

    Registered:
    Oct 26, 2001
    A point or two -- if you're a young'un just coming into SW (as many new generation fans ARE), then you WILL know that Anakin is Vader long before the reveal in ESB. The moment, however, is still emotionally potent -- as repeated viewing of ESB does for the rest of us. As Jello said, surprise is not story. If it were, the story would only have value the first time you read/saw it. I think it's likely that most people here have seen every SW movie more than once.

    Jaina has NOT been confirmed as Jag's wife and the mother of Fel II and so on. How and when the IK were formed has NOT been revealed. Moreover, I don't think Fel being Emperor is the focus of FotJ. I can't say I KNOW but I think the series has its own issues resolve. Without knowing what the plot of FotJ IS, how can anyone say this line compromises the arc?

    Why did I do it? Because I felt it was time. LFL, as always, had to okay the script and I wouldn't have been allowed to compromise the novels. The line would have been taken out if they felt it did.

    Rob, I'm sorry if the line detracted from your enjoyment of the story. However, i don't think it compromises FotJ at all.

    All the best

    -- John
     
  21. Robimus

    Robimus Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 6, 2007
    Thats actually my biggest fear John, is that Del Rey is going to gloss over this Jag/Remnant issue in much the same style as they did at the end of Invincible. My critism isn't pointed solely in your direction, but more in the direction of LFL itself.

    Spoiled might not be exactly the right term. I'm using it as fan lingo, it's not that I think I won't enjoy FOTJ or that the entire story has been ruined, its just that an small element of it has been. I like the unknown. I don't go into the Official Threads even on this board until after I've read the book or comic.(Thus why I'm always late to the discussion table:p in the Legacy threads)

    I know that LFL approves the comics, and now that it was likely the intention all along to have Jag as Fel 1. See maybe it's a minor point to everyone but me, thats possible too.

    And I don't think that Vader's reveal to Luke will have the same emotional impact to those who already know the story as it did on me in 1980, but thats just me.[face_peace]

    I appreciate the time you took to respond to me very much, no appologies nessessary[face_peace].

    Thanks
    Rob
     
  22. Lord_Hydronium

    Lord_Hydronium Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 11, 2002
    But we had the question already, and now it's answered. This issue was the revelation. I guess you're saying that that should have been saved for the novels, but I don't see why. The Fel Empire is Legacy's thing; why wouldn't it answer it here, rather than wait for some unidentified point in the novels to do so (and that's assuming we didn't already see it coming from the end of Invincible)? It's like saying that learning Vader is Anakin in ESB spoils the PT.
     
  23. BobaMatt

    BobaMatt TFN EU Staff star 7 VIP

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 2002
    We knew Palpatine would end up Emperor. We didn't know he was Darth Sidious until Episode III.

    That is, unless you watched the movies. The reveal in RotS is impotent because, by then, it's been blatantly obvious for six years already.
    No, but we started Legacy with Force using descendants of the Fel family on the throne, each keeping a ceremonial white lock of hair. Then LotF ended with Jag in charge of the Empire.

    I mean really. C'mon. Mystery?
    I don't suggest anything. I'm flat out stating that this was not something the powers that be were trying very hard to conceal, hence the look of the Fel Emperors, and Jag adopting the Victory without War idea, an idea explicitly stated to have been started by Fel I.
    I think you misunderstand me.

    There's no indication of who the first IK will be, so there's no way of knowing. As for Jag's wife, well, given his relationship to Jaina, here role in the excerpts of FotJ that have been released, and the later Fels' Force sensitivity, it'd be surprising if it wasn't Jaina, but, well, as distaff names aren't kept in the family in most cases, there's no way to be absolutely sure.

    With Jag, though, every single bit of evidence pointed at him. Keeping it "secret" was becoming pointless. There's no reason not to confirm it.
     
  24. Havac

    Havac Former Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 29, 2005
    But the thing is, Vader is a huge surprise. This isn't. People have been calling this for years and years. The comparable revelation is if in ANH, Obi-Wan had told Luke that his father was a powerful Jedi named Anakin Skywalker, who turned to the dark side, had his butt kicked, and wound up in a big black suit and took a different name. TESB revealing, "Yeah, he's definitely Vader," wouldn't be a big reveal, would it? It's one thing to lose mystery -- if Legacy, say, revealed who Ben married and how he died, that might annoy me. You'd certainly have a point there, no doubt at all. But this is as far from a mystery as you can get, as Matt and others have pointed out. This wasn't a holy-crap reveal, and it was never going to be a holy-crap reveal, because we already had 99% of the evidence; this was just the last, final piece to formally resolve the issue.

    Yeah, it removes the absurdly remote possibility that DR was going to pull some kind of bait and switch where Cem Fel, the person three fans remember exists, winds up on the throne and marries Jysella Horn. Just like Legacy's first issue removed the absurdly remote possibility that Luke and Ben were both going to die in a barn fire before Ben procreated. Just like the YJK removed the ability of HOT to have Coruscant superlasered to death.

    But I don't see the point in complaining that mysteries that weren't really mysteries were resolved, or that possibilities that weren't really possibilities were eliminated. I just don't see the point.
     
  25. BobaMatt

    BobaMatt TFN EU Staff star 7 VIP

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 2002
    Yeah.

    When I read that, my reaction was more like, "Sigh..finally..."
     
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