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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

CT Leia Mega-Thread, formerly Why did Princess Leia criticize her "rescue" on the Death Star?

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by SWF417, May 7, 2015.

  1. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Thread title updated.

    So far everyone participating in the discussion the last few pages has been following the TOS but with the update, I will be adding this warning to the original post.

    All users should be aware of the site’s policy against hate speech and sexism. Misogynistic comments about either the actor or the character are not allowed, up to and including comments about her appearance or having the ‘wrong demeanor for a woman’.

    The short version: if you are about to post a comment that you would never post about a character named Leon Organa or an actor named Carl Fisher...don’t post it.

    @Bazinga'd @cubman987
     
  2. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011
    I actually think some of the criticisms of Anakin do have a lot to do with gender. I think a lot of the instinctive revulsion a lot of viewers feel towards Anakin in AOTC is because he doesn't act appropriately "masculine." He's emotionally expressive so he gets labeled a whiner, he's awkward with courtship so he gets labeled a creep. These are both qualities that men in particular are frequently shamed for exhibiting in our society, because they don't fit into the masculine ideal of an emotionally reserved ladies' man. Han Solo fits much more into this masculine ideal, which is why you see far fewer negative reactions to his behavior from both men and women, despite that behavior being obviously much worse than Anakin's when looked at objectively. Even an abusive psycho like Kylo Ren is perceived significantly more sympathetically than Anakin by much of the viewing audience, because at least he doesn't come across as "weak."

    Of course, I'm not sure how any of this justifies disproportionate criticism of Leia for being outspoken and sarcastic. The point is that these kinds of malignantly enforced gender roles hurt everybody.
     
  3. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    I agree with you there, and I have the same opinion of those criticisms of Anakin as I feel about the opinion that Leia should be sweeter and more demure. I was thinking more of criticisms of Anakin’s behavior in the Tusken camp and the latter half of ROTS.
     
  4. christophero30

    christophero30 Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    May 18, 2017
    wonders who this Leon Organa was...was he Leia's cousin? [face_tee_hee]
     
  5. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    Obi-wan did end his argument with Anakin by cutting off his arm and legs, then leaving him to burn.

    Anyway, when it comes to Leia slapping Poe, there is a bit of fairness to it. She always had disagreements with Han and Luke, but they always showed her respect by trusting her judgment. Even when Han mocked it in the garbage compactor. Even the other Rebel pilots trusted her judgment. But Poe didn't trust her judgment when it came to Holdo and that upset her, which is why she slapped him. His actions nearly jeopardized the mission.

    Leia fell in love with Han because she saw the real him underneath all the swagger and bluster. The man who came back to help Luke at Yavin 4. The same man who stayed on afterwards and did his best to aid the Alliance during the evacuation from Yavin 4 and all the adventures they had before settling in on Hoth. Who showed great leadership and courage during those difficult times. She knew that he cared for the cause and for the people involved. What upset her most was his sudden and abrupt decision to leave and not come back. She herself has trouble opening up enough to admit that she wants him to stay because she loves him, which he knows that she does. So when she finally says it as he's about to be frozen, his reply of, "I know" is an acknowledgment of her admission that he's known for some time.

    You miss the context of their arguments, which is that he's trying to get her to admit her true feelings for him. Saying, "I'll miss you" won't cut it as they'll go right back to where they are, which is her inability to commit. Not his. She'll insist that he stay, but won't admit her feelings for him. That's why it takes the possibility of his dying to finally get her to breakdown and tell him how she feels. It forces her to either **** or get off the pot.
     
    Iron_lord likes this.
  6. Blackhole E Snoke

    Blackhole E Snoke Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 26, 2016
    No character that is considered good, should be slapping anyone because they are "upset" with them. Like Anakinfan mentioned in post #376. Would you still be saying it was fair if Leon was slapping Poette for the same reason?
     
    Sith Lord 2015 likes this.
  7. lord_sidious_

    lord_sidious_ Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Feb 19, 2019
    Oh ok I don't count that as pleading but yes I agree that she tried to stop Tarkin.

    In this particular instance, Poe disobeyed military orders and brought danger to everyone. I think any punishment lighter than execution can be considered light.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 16, 2019
  8. Blackhole E Snoke

    Blackhole E Snoke Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 26, 2016
    A dictionary does though.

    You didn't answer my question.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2019
  9. lord_sidious_

    lord_sidious_ Jedi Knight star 3

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    Feb 19, 2019
    Ok I just looked up the definition of plead and turns out I had a misunderstanding of that word my whole life.

    I'd be fine with Leon ordering the public execution of Poette.

    I honesty don't see any sexism on either side. When I brought up the Anakin criticisms earlier, it was because I wanted to contrast the situation there with what I saw as Leia fans being overly protective of Leia, not because I had a problem with people criticising Anakin. I don't think anyone here is sexist, just misunderstanding others to be sexist.
     
    Sith Lord 2015 likes this.
  10. Blackhole E Snoke

    Blackhole E Snoke Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Apr 26, 2016
    You still didn't answer my question. A slap is a physical attack. An execution is a sentence.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2019
  11. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    “I think any punishment lighter than execution can be considered light” is an answer to that question, and @lord_sidious_ was not originally the one who indicated being OK with the slap anyway, that was @darth-sinister .

    Stop treating this thread like your personal prison interrogation session. No one owes you a response on your particular terms.

    @Bazinga'd @cubman987
     
  12. Blackhole E Snoke

    Blackhole E Snoke Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Apr 26, 2016
    It was an open question for anyone to answer, and I didn't mean to demand an answer, I only meant that the answers I was getting were not what the question was asking. The fact is no one should think it fair for a male general to slap a female subordinate for not blindly trusting another male leader. The same should be true with the genders switched back around
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2019
  13. Bazinga'd

    Bazinga'd Saga / WNU Manager - Knights of LAJ star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 1, 2012
    Leadership is gender neutral or should be at least.

    What do you mean “fair”?

    Do you really mean appropriate? What if the male general routinely slapped by men and women for equivalent transgressions? Similarly, what if a Female leader did it to both her male and female subordinates?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  14. Blackhole E Snoke

    Blackhole E Snoke Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Apr 26, 2016
    Yes appropriate is a better word. A physical attack is not an appropriate action by a leader even if the one being hit had done something wrong (which is debatable in this case).
     
  15. devilinthedetails

    devilinthedetails Fiendish Fanfic & SWTV Manager, Interim Tech Admin star 6 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Jun 19, 2019
    On Han/Leia, they each seemed to give as good as they got in terms of the biting banter, and both of them seemed to express their affection for each other in underhanded, almost backhanded ways. Han may respond to Leia's declaration of love with "I know," but she has also told him, "You have your moments. Not many but you do have them." On the surface, it is rather backhanded praise, but the inflection with which it is said gives it a warm, teasing quality. Han and Leia are both very witty characters, so I think to some extent they find in each other that sort of verbal sparring partner, someone who can be that constant challenge they each seem to want.

    Over the course of their adventures together, I think Leia also got to see Han's good sides: his courage, his humor, his skills as a pilot, and his ultimate ability to put those he cares about above his own self interests. In her time with Han under very stressful circumstances, she has gotten to know both his strengths and weaknesses, his admirable qualities and his flaws, so me that made their romance very believable to me even as a little girl watching the movies. Yes, there are a lot of differences between Han and Leia, but there are also some important similarities in my opinion. That harmony and contrast of similarities and differences is what really makes them work as a couple for me.

    On Leia slapping Poe, I wasn't a fan of that action on her part, and that view isn't really shaped by the gender of either Leia or Poe. I just was consistently uncomfortable throughout TLJ with how aggressive the Resistance was in enforcing a command hierarchy on soldiers who, if Rey and Finn are any indication, are volunteers not compensated for their service as far as we know beyond any sort of moral satisfaction they derive from fighting the First Order. I just much prefer the leadership style of the Leia who argues with Han to stay in ESB but ultimately is willing to grant him the freedom to go to what we saw of her when she slapped Poe. To me, she seemed to have regressed as a leader between ROTJ and the Sequel Trilogy, and that was sad for me to watch. I would've expected her leadership style to grow with age and experience, but what happened appeared to me to be the opposite.
     
  16. lord_sidious_

    lord_sidious_ Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Feb 19, 2019
    The slap is the punishment, even if she didn't formally state it as a sentence. I guess it wasn't done very professionally, but the big picture stays the same. A slap is a lighter punishment than execution, so yes, I'd be fine with Leon slapping Poette.
     
  17. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    I see the slapping as very out of character for Leia and an aspect of her that was thrust upon her by Disney, given that she slaps people in the newer comics as well, and given that neither Lucas nor Dark Horse ever had her behave that way.

    I don’t even bother with any in-universe reasons why it might happen, I just go with the out-of-universe reason that someone or several someones did not know how to write Leia, and then pretend it did not happen.
     
  18. christophero30

    christophero30 Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    May 18, 2017
    The Leia slap and the treatment of Luke in TLJ was just further proof to me that the writers/director do not understand the characters. I they were trying to be clever/subversive while also filling it with Marvel type humor for modern audiences. It seemed every scene was undercut with either subversion or humor, sometimes both. I like Marvel humor, but it does not fit in SW.
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2019
  19. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012

    I think the 1977-1986 Marvel SW series occasionally had the same issues.
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2019
    christophero30 likes this.
  20. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    I have no idea who those characters are. Anyway, a good person can slap someone who is also good and still be good. That's a pretty tall reach.

    There's a contrast between Han wanting to leave because of Leia not admitting her feelings and Poe trying to stage a coup over leadership of the Alliance. A stark contrast.
     
  21. devilinthedetails

    devilinthedetails Fiendish Fanfic & SWTV Manager, Interim Tech Admin star 6 Staff Member Administrator

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    Jun 19, 2019
    @darth-sinister, Leia slaps Poe at the beginning of TLJ for being a hotshot pilot in the opening sequence against the First Order Dreadnaught. Then she tells him he is demoted and urges him to get his head out of his cockpit. Personally, I think the demotion is a harsh enough punishment and enough to capture Poe's attention, so I don't see the point of the slap except to just humiliate and degrade Poe. The sad thing is I found Leia in character for the rest of the conversation she had with Poe, and even felt she had some moving advice to give him in an almost motherly way, but that slap really wrenched me out of the movie. Made me stare at the big screen with goggle eyes the first time I saw it in theaters. With Poe's mutiny against Holdo, I did think that Leia was justified in shooting Poe with the stun bolt for that since he had shown himself willing to take up arms against fellow Resistance members.
     
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  22. Talos of Atmora

    Talos of Atmora Force Ghost star 5

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    Jul 3, 2016
    I think I would have been able to take Leia more seriously if either her or Holdo actually had a plan that would have at least had a decent chance of working. Poe's decision to destroy the dreadnought was easily the best choice anyone made in that plotline until he then decided to do something that actually caused unnecessary casualties at the very end. Something which Leia strangely had no qualms with.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2019
  23. WayoftheJedi

    WayoftheJedi Jedi Padawan star 2

    Registered:
    Apr 12, 2019
    She was just teasing them.no reason to be sensitive.Leia is funny.
     
  24. BlackRanger

    BlackRanger Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 14, 2018
    I do think Leia was genuinely surprised to be "rescued" by such inexperienced nobodies as Luke & Han. But then again, more experienced Rebel operatives probably would have written off the rescue job as impossible. Even Obi-Wan didn't bother searching for her, but rather went straight for the tractor beam to try to free the Falcon immediately.
     
  25. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    Two things.

    1. We don't know if Obi-wan was aware that she was alive or not. The Death Star is big and she is untrained. It would be harder to pin her down than it would be for him with Vader.

    2. Who says that he didn't know and thus his saying, "Your destiny lies along a different path than mine", might be a reference to that.