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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Senate Let's Talk: Feminism

Discussion in 'Community' started by blubeast1237, Aug 1, 2014.

Page 194 of 204
  1. solojones

    solojones Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 27, 2000
    FWIW, I wish I knew how to do more car stuff, but my dad and mom don't know either so they couldn't help. I did learn to change a tire as part of my self defense for women class, though, so you don't have to rely on random strangers if you're stranded without a signal. I thought that was a good skill to teach.
     
    solojones, Jun 1, 2020
    #4826
  2. Ava G.

    Ava G. Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2016
    I hope everyone had a happy week. I said non-ironically in an alternate timeline.

    Anyway, #istandwithjulia. In that I like the term "transexual" more than "transgender". Transexual is sexier. But maybe it isn't as transgressively sexual as "transvestism".

    Let's invite someone who's safe for work. @devilinthedetails

    I promise to stop reducing you to a single trait. As soon as you answer these questions:

    ~ What is the difference between sex and gender? Don't look it up. I just wanna learn the diff as it exists in your mind right now w/o new info yo

    ~ How defined is your own sense of innate "gender identity"?

    Thank you!
     
    Ava G., Jun 7, 2020
    #4827
  3. devilinthedetails

    devilinthedetails Fiendish Fanfic & SWTV Manager, Interim Tech Admin star 6 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Jun 19, 2019
    Thanks for your thoughtful questions, @Ava G. :) To do my best to answer them in an intelligent and articulate way, I would offer the following reflections:

    When it comes to the question of what the difference between sex and gender is, I will say that all through high school, I was taught to think about them as essentially the same thing. I remember being in my AP Psychology class junior year, and for the first time hearing that there was any difference between sex (which was basically the sex, male or female, assigned to us at birth based on our reproductive parts as my AP Psychology teacher explained it) and gender (that was more our psychological and social perception of ourselves as male or female).

    I admit that it was a bit of a confusing idea to me back then because it really wasn’t explained in any detail in part because I think my AP Psychology teacher was unfortunately uncomfortable with the notion that some people would have a gender identity that wouldn’t match or align with the sex they had been assigned at birth. So he only sort of acknowledged that reality in a very quick, single sentence and then basically went on to say that distinction between sex and gender didn’t really matter at all in real world terms since for most people sex assigned at birth and gender identification would be the same and apparently from his point of view the people for whom this wasn’t true just weren’t worth talking about and should be marginalized. For insight into his behavior, when our high school held a Day of Silence to protest discrimination against the LGBTQ+ population, he would call on the students participating in the Day of Silence (who wore stickers to make it clear that they were involved in the protest and were trying to go a day without talking) and hound them if they didn’t answer his questions, insisting that they had to. So, yeah, he would sadly target students who didn’t share his views about gender and sex. :(

    It’s only in college and beyond that I’ve really begun to redefine and refine how I think about and understand gender and sex, which is also something that I think society as a whole is doing. Recently, for example, I read The 57 Bus by Dashka Slater that I felt included some informative and fairly easy to understand definitions of a variety of sexual and gender identities. This book was published in 2017 and is intended for a YA audience (though I read it as an adult reader) and one thing that I think is more present in books for a YA audience today compared to when I was in high school is that effort to educate young people about the variety of sexual and gender identities out there.

    I still tend to think of gender as a sociological and psychological construct, but I no longer think it is as simple as individuals and society perceiving themselves or others as male or female. After all, there are those who regard themselves as being neither male nor female or who are gender neutral or gender fluid. As gender is a sociological construct, there are a lot of roles, expectations, and responsibilities that tend to get assigned to people by society based on how society perceives the gender of the person in question (which sometimes may not align with how the person in question perceives their own gender). I think a lot of people with many different gender identifications are starting to push back against the restrictiveness of these social roles, expectations, and responsibilities, which to me is a positive thing.

    Gender roles, expectations, and responsibilities are ultimately fluid, cultural concepts as seen by the fact that they can vary from place to place and time period to time period. We as a society and as individuals very much have the power to redefine gender roles, expectations, and responsibilities as well as how we perceive and identify gender. To me, we as a society are very much in that process of redefinition, which can be a painful and challenging process, but a very worthwhile one as it leaves people freer to express their gender identity, whatever that gender identity may be, however they wish.

    My personal view is that I want to respect everyone’s gender identity and be supportive of however they want to express that gender identity. I also don’t want people to be limited by what roles, expectations, and responsibilities society has assigned to certain genders. I want people to be able to sort of forge their own destinies apart from those gender roles, expectations, and responsibilities as it were. A world where individuals are allowed to be individuals and individual choices are respected with regard to gender is perhaps what I most want.

    Sex is in some ways more difficult to define than gender because it has multiple definitions. One definition is the classification of people as male or female based on their male or female reproductive parts. Usually this classification occurs at birth. It may be tempting to see this definition as a simple or straightforward matter of biology, but it really isn’t because there are, for example, people who are born intersex. There are also people who don’t identify with the sex they were assigned at birth, and some of those individuals might choose to undergo hormone therapy and/or surgery. Personally, I support people’s right to define their own sex in a sense. If someone who was assigned the male sex at birth due to their genitalia prefers to be regarded as female, I will say that person’s sex is female whether or not that person has chosen to undergo hormone therapy and/or surgery. I just figure that each person is the ultimate authority on his or her own sexuality and who am I to really question or disrespect that? In terms of my own self-definition, when it comes to sex in this sense, I consider myself female because I have female reproductive parts, but I do not expect others to have to define themselves in the same way.

    With sex, there is also the definition of sexual intercourse, and more broadly, all types of sexual activity and sexual desires. It is in this sense that I don’t really experience any sexual desire or wish to engage in any sexual activity and even find personally engaging in sexual activity to be somewhat unpleasant or distasteful (though the thought of other people engaging in sexual activity is not unpleasant or distasteful to me, I should clarify, nor do I think there is something inherently disgusting about sexual activity. I acknowledge others find it pleasurable and fundamentally it is necessary to continue our species. Our species wouldn’t survive if we were all asexual, after all, and that’s probably why only a minority of us are, but still we are a minority deserving of respect and understanding) that I identify as asexual. So I am not asexual in the sense that I have no sexual organs or that I don’t see myself as female. I am asexual only in my lack of sexual activity and fundamental desire for sexual activity. I have female sex organs and therefore see myself as female, but I’m not a sexual being because I lack the desire to engage in sexual activity, and as such, I see myself as asexual.

    When it comes to my innate sense of my own gender identity, I suppose that I could say it is fairly strong in as far as I never felt as if I were anything other than female and I can’t remember a time when I perceived myself as anything other than female. For as long as I can remember, I was female in that I knew that I was a girl and later a woman.

    That being said, I’m not really someone to be constrained by what is or isn’t seen as appropriate for my gender. If I wear makeup or dresses or nail polish or jewelry, it’s because I want to and like the way they look on me (so it’s for my aesthetic pleasure in a way, not anybody else’s and not for society’s approval). I will also say that I choose my interests and hobbies based on what fascinates and appeals to me. For example, my two of my favorite sports are gymnastics (often thought of as a “girly” sport or a glamor sport) and hockey (which is often associated with masculinity and violent checking or fighting). Growing up, I played with Star Wars action figures, matchbox cars, and toy soldiers as much as I did dolls and dress-up. So I never really saw my gender as something that should limit what I liked or what I did. I don’t go out of my way to follow or break the rules in terms of gender expectations and roles. I just do my own thing, making my own choices as freely and independently as possible. If that means a traditional interest or path at one point and a less traditional interest or path at another point, I’m fine with that. I don’t really try to put myself into any sort of small box based on gender roles or expectations, and I try not to shove anyone else into such tight quarters either. I just try to give myself and others the space to be individuals.

    I also tend to have many of the traits stereotypically thought of as female—patience, a desire for peace and calm, and generally being known as quite sweet—but to me those traits are just part of who I am and I’m not going to be ashamed of them and think of them as lesser just because they have been stereotypically associated with female “weakness.” Nor did I choose to cultivate them because I thought as a female that I had to be sweet or peaceful or patience. They were just qualities that I admired in males and females alike and wished to develop in myself. I also don’t tend to think of those traits as being opposed to strength or resilience. To me, I can be both strong and sweet, patient and resilient. That is what I strive to be: a gentle soul but a strong soul and ultimately the soul is perhaps beyond any simple gender identity. @};-
     
    devilinthedetails , Jun 7, 2020
    #4828
    SateleNovelist11, Emperor Ferus, Ava G. and 2 others like this.
  4. Thena

    Thena Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    May 10, 2001
    With JK Rowling as TERF Queen? :mad:
     
    Thena, Jun 7, 2020
    #4829
    SateleNovelist11, Ava G. and devilinthedetails like this.
  5. Ava G.

    Ava G. Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2016
    Yeah, nobody was demanding he pause at every mention of sex characteristics and give a disclaimer or long-winded speech on the existence of trans women and men.

    Medical science acknowledges trans people. And medical science operates at a very strict biological level. Yet I don't hear too many of them complaining that having to account for trans people impedes their ability to get to the objective, life-saving facts.

    I'd like to believe that a psychology teacher, whose job deals with emotion and thought, would be open-minded about gender issues, but w/e lol

    I'll try checking out The 57 Bus. :] I'm out of touch with YA literature from the past few years. It's nice to know there are progressive books available for high school students.

    Leftist video game streamers help the cause as well. Casual online advocacy. I think it's a great delivery method for social awareness, even if real world politics is only lightly sprinkled across the game commentary. Young adults don't read the way they did when you or I went to school, but they do play games and watch videos on the internet.

    I know, it's exhausting trying to meet others' arbitrary and restrictive and flat-out unfair standards. This is the only life I get. Let me be me.

    That is a firm stance you're taking, and I'm right beside you.

    Equality and freedom are always hard won, from what I tell.

    We're well on our way! Trans people were all but invisible and silent a decade ago. "Non-binary" sure wasn't a common topic.

    Introducing the dolls and actions figures can create some unique stories. :]

    I'm the same way with beauty products. It's therapeutic taking care of myself and feeling gorgeous. It's... a spark that lights the fire of my self-confidence!

    ^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~

    All right. I'd rate your essay an Exceeds Expectations. You've keenly compared and contrasted sex with gender and explained how they relate to the individual and the external world. Those last couple paragraphs warmed my heart.

    Writing prompt just for you: Imagine a future where "gender" is abolished . . . but femininity and masculinity persist as concepts. World build and take us there.

    No deadline or word count. Just please try finishing before I die of old age.

    ~leaves to begin work on my own epic project~
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2020
    Ava G., Jun 8, 2020
    #4830
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  6. Dark Ferus

    Dark Ferus Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 29, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2020
    Dark Ferus, Jun 14, 2020
    #4831
    poor yorick, SateleNovelist11, devilinthedetails and 1 other person like this.
  7. Ava G.

    Ava G. Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2016
    @Princess_Tina Hello there. Nicely-done interview with Coruscant.

    We'll keep this relaxed, if you don't mind. Pull up a pillow. Have some tea. ~Buddhist temple music punctuated by absurdly loud tea-slurping sounds~

    Which part of J. K. Rowling's "manifesto" bothered you the worst?
     
    Ava G., Jun 14, 2020
    #4832
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  8. Thena

    Thena Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    May 10, 2001
    There are a lot of awful things about what she's saying, but it sad because it's been a while since she first started spouting bigoted stuff and one might have hoped she would learn from her mistakes, and evidently she didn't, she hasn't. So much of what she's doing is harmful and hurting some of the just vulnerable folks in society.
    I fear the worst harm comes from women who might read her manifesto without having previously gotten very far in understanding the whole concept of gender identity and gender diversity as most experts recognize it today. If I knew little about many of these things and just started reading her stuff, I'd be buying into a lot of hateful notions and not even realize it.
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2020
    Thena, Jun 14, 2020
    #4833
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  9. Ava G.

    Ava G. Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2016
    Very good. And that's why we can't just ignore Ms. Rowling. Her platform allows her to snap her fingers and decide the opinions of countless impressionables.

    This may be a bit of magical thinking, but it's poetic that devilinthedetails wrote her essay on gender and sex, then only three days later Rowling releases hers. We could rename this thread Divination class.

    *puts on huge glasses that greatly magnify my eyes*

    SEXY HUH??

    *takes them off and tosses over shoulder*
     
    Ava G., Jun 14, 2020
    #4834
    SateleNovelist11, Emperor Ferus, Princess_Tina and 2 others like this.
  10. Thena

    Thena Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    May 10, 2001
    Yes, she's certainly influential. And yet within a few days she's been denounced by all the major stars from the Harry Potter series, who are also influential themselves.

     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2020
    Thena, Jun 14, 2020
    #4835
    SateleNovelist11, Ava G., Ghost and 2 others like this.
  11. Thena

    Thena Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    May 10, 2001
    German court rules that hate speech laws also cover the blanket denigration of women

     
    Thena, Jun 15, 2020
    #4836
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  12. SateleNovelist11

    SateleNovelist11 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2015
    Excellent. Tired of hearing talk like that. I wish we could get something like this here.
     
    SateleNovelist11, Jun 15, 2020
    #4837
    Nehru_Amidala, devilinthedetails , Juliet316 and 2 others like this.
  13. Ava G.

    Ava G. Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2016
    Continuing the theme of diversity. In this case, neurodiversity.

    @Nehru_Amidala Thanks for coming. You and I haven't interacted much over these many months. We do brush shoulders often enough, and I always notice your signature. I think it's great that you can be open about who you are and your interests.

    Here ya go:

    ‣ How do you, a woman with AS, relate to traditional female roles? Femme female Aspies obviously exist, but I understand that a rather high percentage of you are . . . boyish. I was curious how you classify yourself on the gender spectrum.

    ‣ For fun. Can you give a witty retort to this? I'll post mine after you.

    Have a bright Sunday!
     
    Ava G., Jun 21, 2020
    #4838
    Emperor Ferus, SateleNovelist11, Nehru_Amidala and 2 others like this.
  14. Nehru_Amidala

    Nehru_Amidala Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Oct 3, 2016
    !. That's a really good question! I have always been heterosexual, and I consider myself cisgender. However, it was only a couple of years ago I even learned what that meant, and as someone who identifies as a biological female, this confused me. It makes more sense to say I am a girl who is biologically female who seeks out males as potential romantic partners. That said, I do like some boyish interests such as Legos, shonen anime, and Star Wars. I like wearing pants and my hair is relatively short. On the other hand, I enjoy wearing dresses and getting my nails done. For practical reasons, I see myself as more feminine (I work with two year olds as my job) than boyish, so I would say I am a cisgendered femme with a tomboy streak who is in love with the idea of being in love. I write romance fanfiction, after all.

    2. I am so awfully glad I'm an Aspie. Alpha's do their thinking between their legs!
    (apologies to Huxley)
     
    Nehru_Amidala, Jun 21, 2020
    #4839
    Emperor Ferus, Princess_Tina, Ava G. and 1 other person like this.
  15. Ava G.

    Ava G. Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2016
    The "I am a girl" part would be how your mind identifies. "Biologically female" is your way of saying you were born with a vagina. Makes sense.

    Star Wars?! SAME! What are the odds we should meet here.

    It's cool seeing what some people can build using Legos. These days I guess that's transferred to mediums like Minecraft.

    Oh yes, those preschoolers. We might've heard you mention them once in passing.

    You clearly care for them very much. They're sure to remember you fondly as they grow. :]

    *nods* Hmm. Could you give us an example of a sexist trope that a writer might accidentally let sneak into their romance stories?

    HA! Brave New World. I've listened to the radio drama, but never read the book. Alternately, "Aspie and Alpha" makes me think Spock and Kirk.

    ok ok mine

    (Threatening): Call me "pet" again.
    (Matter-of-fact): ... I like it.
     
    Ava G., Jun 21, 2020
    #4840
    Emperor Ferus and Nehru_Amidala like this.
  16. Dark Ferus

    Dark Ferus Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 29, 2016
    Dark Ferus, Jun 28, 2020
    #4841
    Pensivia likes this.
  17. Ava G.

    Ava G. Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2016
    Women of color it is, then.

    A while back ago we pulled the tumblr lever and shined the spotlight on actress Hattie McDaniel, who played Mammy in Gone with the Wind.



    Some souls of old Hollywood have aged fairly well.

    Want a history lesson on race relations . . . from something published in June 1945? Let's give Wonder Woman #13 a try.

    [​IMG]

    https://i.ibb.co/SytwhWf/wwpage1.jpg
    https://i.ibb.co/qMMdF2M/wwpage2.jpg
    https://i.ibb.co/Gk6cXdY/wwpage3.jpg
    https://i.ibb.co/NCdQd1d/wwpage4.jpg

    @Khalia Octa What would you say to an American (in a paragraph or so) . . . if you wanted to sell them on caring about Aboriginal Australian issues? More specifically, aboriginal women.
     
    Ava G., Jun 28, 2020
    #4842
    Khalia Octa, Nehru_Amidala and Emperor Ferus like this.
  18. Ava G.

    Ava G. Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2016
    ~gets devious look on face~

    ~goes to shelf and pulls down book~

    Next time I'll tell you all about Ava Gardner's FIRST PERIOD. It was feminissss
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2020
    Ava G., Jun 28, 2020
    #4843
    Emperor Ferus and Princess_Tina like this.
  19. SateleNovelist11

    SateleNovelist11 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2015
    Most trans women with whom I've spoken and/or befriended prefer the term transgender. I've only heard one trans woman prefer the term transsexual, and she had her reasons for it, since she had some dated view of things. But I think it's best for transgender people to decide which terms best suite us. I would wager that if more cis people were aware of non-binary identifications and those who identify as pangender, neutrois, gender-neutral, etc., then more people would identify in any of those ways. Generation Z is more open about admitting that many of them identify as bisxual or pansexual, even more so than Generation Y. I think people should accept that most humans are pan or bi and that there are many genders and get the **** over it. Keeping up a heteronormative binary or a heteropatriarchy hurts everyone. Not saying that about anyone on this thread.

    The notion that these natural things undermine feminism is absurd. The only things that undermines feminism is trans-exterminationist radical feminism (TERFism) and those who lie that true feminists don't believe in equality. Fourth-wive feminists defend not only women's rights but trans rights and all human rights.

    2019 polls have shown that most Democrats and independents support trans rights, which gladdens me after the Trump administration failed to erase us. Additionally, there is a long history of fetishizing trans people, which I find repugnant. I don't mind that many people say I'm pretty because I look a lot like my Mom. I've been a relationship with a cis woman since May 2019, and she doesn't fetishize me. I appreciate her inner and external beauty, and she says she does the same for me. I imagine in the future trans people will be as accepted as gay people, and it won't be uncommon for cis people to date trans people. Of course, I'm very lucky to be with a lady who literally punched someone to protect me. I think that people should accept that we humans are at our healthiest mentally speaking when we accept that our minds are all a little or very androgynous. That pertains to personality, not necessarily sexuality. My 12th grade psychology teacher taught me that in 2004, and it didn't take her master's degree from Oxford to help her learn that.
     
    SateleNovelist11, Jul 5, 2020
    #4844
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  20. robert martins

    robert martins Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 9, 2018
    The Dixie Chicks got rid of the Dixie in their name because it's offensive. Question for feminists, Isn't the word Chick offensive to some women? Should they not get rid of that too?
     
    robert martins, Jul 6, 2020
    #4845
  21. poor yorick

    poor yorick Ex-Mod star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Jun 25, 2002
    Yes. They should be known only by an arcane symbol that cannot be pronounced. In order to talk about them, we will have to draw that symbol on something, preferably our own foreheads.

    How is this question relevant to anything?
     
    poor yorick, Jul 6, 2020
    #4846
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  22. dp4m

    dp4m Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Nov 8, 2001
    [​IMG]
     
    dp4m, Jul 6, 2020
    #4847
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  23. solojones

    solojones Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 27, 2000
    It might be if a man uses it to denigrate you. But if you, a woman, want to call yourselves The Chicks, then um... No? That is not offensive.
     
    solojones, Jul 6, 2020
    #4848
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  24. blackmyron

    blackmyron Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Oct 29, 2005
    Question for starbob, since you keep posting the meme that claims Democrats all love the Confederacy and the South, shouldn't you be joining the band in repudiating symbols of the CSA?
    He's just trying to pull a classic variation of the old conservative plaintive cry, "If they can use the n-word, I should be able to use the n-word too!"
     
    blackmyron, Jul 6, 2020
    #4849
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  25. robert martins

    robert martins Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 9, 2018
    A word is should be offensive no matter who uses it, otherwise it gives off the wrong message.
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2020
    robert martins, Jul 6, 2020
    #4850
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