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Senate Let's Talk: Feminism

Discussion in 'Community' started by blubeast1237, Aug 1, 2014.

  1. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    This thread remains hugely useful for navigating the general area of feminism, as there's so many blind alleys and so much bad info put out laying claim to be it.

    The one recurring thing I've noticed over the last few years and longer is this kind of "you younger women ought to be more respectful of what we did for you" from older feminists. But that ends up drifting into "do what you're told", which doesn't go down too well.
     
  2. CT-867-5309

    CT-867-5309 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2011
    In the case of anti-abortion activist and Republican National Convention speaker Abby Johnson advocating for one household vote in which the husband gets the final say, it’s fully deserved. She wants to take from everyone what those who came before her fought so hard to achieve. If I was a woman, I’d want to punch her in the face. I want to punch her in the face, regardless.
     
  3. SateleNovelist11

    SateleNovelist11 Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2015
    Personally, if I had to label myself, I would say I'm an anarcha-feminist insofar as I personally oppose capitalism and classism, and I believe there should be an equal ground between all genders. I'm rather fond of Emma Goldman.

    I'm not a hard anarcha-fem, though. I don't judge people who believe in marriage. I sometimes find it cute.

    I suppose that's why I feel the forums tend to be heteronormative or homonormative. I'm not saying that the JCF erases bi or pan people, but ya know, they are the majority of the human species, so...I'm kind of amazed that we don't defend them more often here. I didn't realize that that was an anarcha-feminist perspective until recently.
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2020
  4. Princess_Tina

    Princess_Tina Wacky Wednesday Winner star 7 VIP - Game Winner

    Registered:
    May 10, 2001
    In lesbian circles, the debate over transinclusion ended up being a very divisive thing - for many younger lesbians it was appalling that so many among the older generations chose to fight transinclusive spaces for lesbian and/or women-only spaces, and a whole lot of angry discussions took place over MWMF, which is of course ironic because it was all about women's empowerment and celebrating femalehood but it ended up being considered by many younger women as a symbol of bigotry and intolerance.

    So that ended up being a very big generational divide, unfortunately, and it probably made change all the more inevitable because many events and spaces (like MWMF) wound up being boycotted by a large part of the lesbian community, and ended up shutting down.

    It was very unfortunate, but there was no bridging the divide.
     
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  5. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 I Am Speaking in Four Realms star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Just a few random thoughts on it here:

    I wish people who call themselves feminists would focus on issues like equal pay for equal work, equal opportunities for work/absence of discrimination in the workplace (including continuing to cancel the James Damores of the world who think women are biologically incapable of being his colleague), paid parental leave (for mothers and fathers), and widespread availability of birth control at no cost as well as widespread comprehensive education in family planning. The latter is a much better focus than abortion on demand at any time, and if all pregnancies are planned, the need for abortion would drop drastically (still wouldn’t go away completely because there can be situations rising during a pregnancy).

    When we’re focusing on public restrooms, we’re doing it wrong.

    I used to think “feminists hate men” was something misogynists made up. It’s not. There really are feminists who hate men. That’s part of what the ridiculous bathroom talk is about. It’s also where “just believe women” when it becomes “all men assault women at any given opportunity and if a woman says she was assaulted, she was, no questions” as opposed to what it should be, which is “take women seriously when they say they were assaulted”. I also think there is a segment of society, some who call themselves feminists, who think that women have no obligation to assert themselves, when we would never say that about men, hence the playing into bad gender stereotypes.

    And it’s only been in the last few years that I have heard that ‘if you don’t like romance novels or other types of fiction that some think is what women want, you’re a misogynist’, as opposed to the stereotype itself being sexist, in lumping all women’s taste into a monolith.
     
  6. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
  7. CT-867-5309

    CT-867-5309 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2011
    There are feminists who hate men the same way there are bad Christians. Every group has them.
     
  8. Princess_Tina

    Princess_Tina Wacky Wednesday Winner star 7 VIP - Game Winner

    Registered:
    May 10, 2001
    MWMF
     
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  9. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    Thanks, never would have worked it out
     
  10. SateleNovelist11

    SateleNovelist11 Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2015
    I think Anakinfan and Tina are right. There are extremists among feminists who gave the movement a bad name due to their extremism and misandry. That's what they mean. The label of feminism would be better if they all accepted egalitarianism.

    I agree. The TERFs are the main people who gave feminism a bad name for transgender people. Evidently. But am I right, Tina and Anakinfan? The feminists who were extreme (i.e. the ones who were truly misandrist), not the ones who believe in equality? That's my take.

    Honestly, I have been diagnosed with androphobia since 2009. A lot of the kindness I perform on this website is an act, and if people showed their faces, I would not be able to handle it. But Anakinfan was accused of being my hero by certain jealous types. I never saw it that way. You and I agree to disagree on some things. I just felt safe because you looked after me if I got banned for shooting my mouth off for certain misandry, but I would tell my counselors at the Genesis Women's Shelter about you, and they would say, "Anakinfan is trying to understand you because she has compassion for all folks feminine, including those like you who agree with Dick Frans Swaab that women can be born in the wrong body." So, yeah. It was basically like a big sister thing. Grieving SateleNovelist11, missing Aubrey and Rchael, was a bit too forward because she was scared that someone would hurt her as Aubrey and Rachael had been. Obviously, I was a bit paranoid back then. And I shouldn't have been so...phobic. When I was little, I was horrified by boys picking on girls as early as kindergarten. I couldn't understand why I did not look like girls. I didn't have any true friends outside of my Mom and Dad and grandmother until I was 19. I was so scared of guys, and I resented girls for defending males when boys bullied me. I locked myself in stalls and refused to use the urinal all my life. I felt bad. I was resentful of the gender-binary and heterosexuality in general, thinking all the other orientations and genders would be better parents/better people than heterosexual folks. Evidently, I've overcome that prejudice, but I have to work hard to prevent it from coming to the fore in m mind. I was quiet for most of my life from kindergarten to twelfth grade, thinking I would never transition. (This was from 1991 to 2005.) Thankfully, my parents paid for my surgery in 2014 and legal gender change. That fixed a lot. So, I know what you mean. A lot of what removed my androphobia was because my liberal Democrat dad was all for it. My moderate Republican mom was skeptical, although she does call me by my legal name and legal pronouns as of 2016 to the present. So, there are usually cis women in my life who make me feel safe. And obviously, I've never met Anakinfan in person. But she made me feel safe on this site. I wouldn't call it like having an aunt-figure, a sister-figure, or any of that. Just someone who encourages us. That's why I appreciate women helping other women. I like that stuff. When I took Women in Crime in 2008, Dr. Gullion said, "Women can be stereotyped wrathful, vengeful, manipulative, spiteful, and vulnerable...but they are not truly vulnerable. These things they get blamed for are kind of miosyginstic in nature. Women and men aren't that different." So, he was defending women in his own way. Sorry I misspelt that. Anyhow, I'm going on a bit. But I'm just saying that sisterhood without a bias or reason for it got me through college before my parents paid for my transition. And Anakinfan made me feel safe before it was easier for me to express myself without anxiety. Very professional, I mean to say. Ugh. I'm tired. Hope this makes sense. Lol.

    I think vulnerability is a strength. Dr. Gullion was talking about the in the stereotypical way. Pay him no criticism. His wife urged him to get his PhD., and she has a master's. He and his wife do wonders for their kids.
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2020
    Iron_lord and Princess_Tina like this.
  11. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 I Am Speaking in Four Realms star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Just a reminder of how far Ruth Bader Ginsberg brought us and how easily some would take us back.

    Not my words (I wasn’t born in 1966), seen on social media:

    “I graduated high school in 1966. Abortion was outlawed then, of course. But even though birth control pills were starting to become available, only married women could get them, and only with written permission from their husbands. Many doctors refused to prescribe them. Taking them was a moral offense that would get you excommunicated from most religions. Many pharmacists would not fill the prescription. And when they did, whispers went around the drug store, and the pharmacist and the clerks would treat you with contempt. It was a big freaking intimidating deal.

    If a girl or woman got groped or raped, she usually kept it to herself. She would be blamed, always, for wearing the wrong thing, being in the wrong place, and acting the wrong way. Always.
    Even if she was a minor, and the offender was an older relative. Men were praised for being sexual. Women were shamed. Even married women could expect leers and slurs about her condition if she was pregnant. That's why maternity wear was so concealing and prudish then. It was considered disgusting for a very pregnant woman to be out in public. In most jobs women quit immediately when they found out they were pregnant. Or they would be fired. And there would be no unemployment benefits.

    Women had to take the oath in the marriage service that she would "love, honor, and Obey". It was even in secular marriages by Justices of the Peace. It was taken for granted. Women had the relationship to her husband that a child had to his mother. Subordinate. Obedient. There were laws, but "slapping around" or spanking a wife who "got out of line", "forgot her place", and "tried to wear the pants in the family", was actually regarded as appropriate by most people. And even when a wife was beaten to the point of needing hospitalization, usually, her husband was merely warned by police to "take it easy on her", and it was the wife who faced interrogation by her clergy, the police, and the hospital about what SHE did to "set him off", and was counseled to change her attitude. She was NEVER to deny a husband his conjugal rights to her body.

    Because women could not control pregnancy, even by choosing to abstain, she had no control of her life. The fact that her employment depended on it, meant that no financial institution could take a chance on her being to repay loans. She could not get credit, buy a house or a car, or take out a student loan, unless her husband or her father, somebody legally "responsible" for her, co-signed the loan.

    Because she could not control pregnancy, she was denied most jobs in management or training. Companies did not want to invest in temporary employees. They did not want to have to rebuild organizations when key people left.

    Colleges denied most applications from female high school graduates. The attitude was that girls were only there to find a husband, and that they would drop out when they married and had babies. (And girls and women who became pregnant out of wedlock were expelled from high school and college immediately). Colleges felt that every time they accepted a female, she was taking the place of a future male breadwinner. It was considered almost immoral in their eyes.

    Besides, "everyone knew" that women were not as smart as men, anyway. The silly things had no common sense. They needed to be guided and protected. They were the weaker sex, both physically and mentally. Television and movies made constant fun of them, especially of women who were clever and tried to rise to the level of men, and do their jobs. Those who succeeded were called horrible names, and came to bad ends. Unless, of course, a man came along to put her back in her place and she smiled and went happily back to it. Ah, true love!

    Because of all that, her temporary availability, her subordinate status. it was simply unthinkable to see women in positions of authority. Women in the police and the military wore skirts and heels and did not carry weapons, and mostly did secretarial work, or support work as drivers, communication messengers, crossing guards, etc. Women did not appear on media as experts, or host the nightly news. In business, women did not appear in the board room, except as secretaries, serving coffee, passing out papers, and getting touched inappropriately. "Working girls" were fair game.
    Look at old video and you do not see any women in orchestras, except as the singer, or on any film crews except as the script girl, or on any newscasts except as the weather girl, in a perky revealing outfit to reflect the weather of the day.

    This was the world I grew up in. Where little girls were admonished to pretend to be weak and clumsy and stupid so the boys would feel big and strong. So they would LIKE us. So that someday, one of them would choose us, and marry us.

    Our only goal in life was to be a housewife and mother, after a temporary stint as a nurse, teacher, telephone operator, store clerk, waitress or secretary. We were discouraged from "racy" choices like airline stewardess, model, actress or musician, because people would get the "wrong idea" about us. (A girl who became a cocktail waitress or nightclub singer might as well just put a scarlet A on her chest.)

    So when Ruth Bader Ginsburg graduated high school in 1951 and was accepted at Cornell University, that was a big deal. When she got accepted at Harvard University after marrying and becoming a mother, that was a HUGE deal. When she graduated TOP of her class at Columbia Law School, that was nothing less than astounding. And THEN, she became a PROFESSOR at Rutgers Law School in 1963 (where she was told she would be paid less because her husband had a good paying job). She was one of only 20 female law professors in the entire country.

    She was also a volunteer attorney for the American Civil Liberties Union. In 1972, Ginsburg co-founded the Women's Rights Project at the ACLU, and participated in more than 300 gender discrimination cases, and argued six gender discrimination cases before the Supreme Court between 1973 and 1976, winning five of them. She joined the ACLU board of directors and in 1980, President Jimmy Carter appointed her to the U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit, where she served until her appointment to the Supreme Court by President Bill Clinton in 1993.

    In the 54 years since I graduated high school, the social role, the opportunities, and the rights of women changed, thanks to Ruth Bader Ginsburg, and other pioneers like her, from basically that of a child to that of an adult human being. We have almost gained equality to men in business and so many other fields. We still have a ways to go to be equal in pay. (And of course, women of color still are kept back at a much lower level than white women). We have only a tenuous hold on control of our own bodies. The same men who claim a mask is a violation of their civil rights to govern their own bodies, have no problem claiming the right to decide every aspect of ours.

    The primary goal of McConnell and Trump, and the religious organizations that back them, is to overturn Roe v Wade, and LGBTQ rights, and then every advancement we have made in Civil Rights, Women's Rights, and Voting Rights in the Courts. They want to roll back the clock and re-establish white supremacy and religious authority to where they were in my day. In Ruth Bader Ginsburg's day.

    Ruth Bader Ginsburg showed us that anything is possible if we are willing to put the will, the time, the effort, and the work into it. This tiny woman overcame every obstacle and achieved something for ALL of us living in this country today. We ALL need to step up now, and carry her torch forward. We stood on giant's shoulders. We must not fail her. We will not fall, but climb higher, to the place she led us to, the place she wanted us to go.

    VOTE. Get everyone you know to vote. Everything we ever fought for and won, is on the line.”
     
  12. PCCViking

    PCCViking Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Jun 12, 2014
    One of my friends from high school got to meet Justice Ginsburg. She officiated my friend's wedding.
     
  13. Nehru_Amidala

    Nehru_Amidala Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 3, 2016
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  14. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett PT Interview Host/All-Around Good Guy star 10 VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2014
    Her last public appearance was officiating a wedding
     
  15. SateleNovelist11

    SateleNovelist11 Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2015
    She was kind and tough. :)
     
  16. SateleNovelist11

    SateleNovelist11 Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2015
    Frankly, I'm going to share change the subject and share what I posted on FB. It's pretty complex. Therefore, #contentwarning.

    Okay. So, I recorded a 15-minute video venting about the previous post's content. However, I'm going to elaborate in this manner, since this will be far more concise. #contentwarning

    Anyway, the person in question (QAnon supporter)'s parents and horrible exes to blame for all of this chaos. The father abandoned his kids when she was little, given how his wife was cheating on him. Then the mother neglected her kids, and I wouldn't be surprised of the QAnon supporter's half-sibling's father (a prison guard) abused said QAnon supporter when she was a little girl. Ugh. It's so terrible! Her mom had horrible choices in men, and her kids did not deserve to witness such repugnant men abusing their mom. The QAnon supporter and her siblings should have been rescued as infants to be raised by more mature and competent people. Therefore, she went from being an anti-racist, who believed in human equality, to becoming a QAnon anti-vaxxer. I mean, Ms. K.B. Anderson once said that anti-vaxxers were just as crazy as flat-earthers, and I can see why. This QAnon supporter literally believes a quack doctor who claims that vaccines will turn us humans into nanomachines or nanorobots. And I blame two or three of her boyfriends for abusing her and possibly causing her brain damage to the point that she would believe this. What occurred is not her fault. She's not to blame for what others have done to and stolen from her. She may be on drugs to numb the pain of what her current boyfriend is doing to her. But her parents refused to help her when she got a DWI in August 2017. She kicked the can down the road via county-appointed defense lawyers, and then this boyfriend came along, promising to save her, and he battered her. She obeyed his orders to get rid of his legal situation, thus depriving him of much-deserved jail time. His family covers up what he does to her! She drinks and drives alone because she's tired of everyone trying to touch her and **** her. (She doesn't trust them not to touch her, which is why she drives alone.) She literally doesn't know how to say no, as someone told me seven years ago, and I didn't quite believe it then. Now, however, I can see why. I blame whoever abused her when she was a kid for this. She had good intentions, and she was helpful to a few individuals. Sadly, as it is currently, she has no notion of how to protect herself. Her parents could have helped her to get through that DWI legal situation that ended in December 2019, and she could have worked and gotten counseling to earn an expunction. However, she trusted this evil boyfriend to help her, and now, he controls her destiny. Frankly, I feel incredibly sorry for her. This boyfriend may slay her someday, or he may continue to torment her for years and force her to get off birth control, which would mean he would be abusing not only her but her child. He is the cause of her belief in QAnon, since he has de-facto trafficked her by controlling her schedule, who she can see, who she can't see, etc. It's made her paranoid, and she's losing herself. And her girlfriend refuses to help her flee from him. Her girlfriend waited for years for her, but now her girlfriend is pretending to be straight, as so many girls of her tragic type do who give up on finding what they authentically want, and this girlfriend is saying that women shouldn't be on birth control...when her best friend (the Q supporter) is on birth control. What a concept... Her boyfriend ought to be incarcerated for life as a result of what he’s done to this young woman!

    This is too much drama for this mama. This is too much pandemonium. I would rather not contribute any further energy on this. I feel sorry for this cis lady. She needs help, and I hope she learns how to love herself...somehow. [No broken heart emojis on the JCF.]
     
  17. dp4m

    dp4m Also a Narc star 10

    Registered:
    Nov 8, 2001
    EDIT: Gonna move this, as I forgot there was a separate misogyny thread vs. the feminism thread.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2020
  18. SateleNovelist11

    SateleNovelist11 Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2015
    I think it's a good thing this website, honestly, is more civilized than Facebook. Facebook is not as bad as Twitter. But the moderators do a good job of preventing people from misgendering people on here. I don't get that on FB that much because people would be too fearful of me. But misgendering is a pretty bad thing that leads to ignorant people hurting others. Fortunately, many Democrats and Independents, accept trans people these days. I'm not really sure why we confuse various people in the world. I think queer people, intersex, neutrois, and other LGBTQPIA folks are pretty easy to understand. I guess I wouldn't understand before middle school. But I put childish things aside. Lol.

    https://apnews.com/fc39633c66ea47a1b803462af95bff84

    I would wager that discrimination against anyone, verbally or otherwise, could be considered a form of sexism. However, I wouldn't necessarily use that term. Generally speaking, it's just not something that humans should do to other humans. Plain and simple.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2020
  19. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 I Am Speaking in Four Realms star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011