ST Light/Dark/Grey in TLJ & IX

The crystals are certainly important. One of the more mysterious elements is their connection to, well, the elements. It seems that they embody some of the elemental aspects of the natural world, ie The Force. Coincidentally, these same elements show up repeatedly in the landscapes of the SW saga. Fire, Snow, rain, etc. Many of the planets that we visits embody one of these characteristics.

"Ancient beings associated them with wind, rain, and breath." - from Catalyst


JJ on TFA's 'Force back scene:

"In this scene she is drawn to this place, almost like Cinderella. And she goes to this box, which, when she opens, she discovers something that of course has no meaning to her -- she's never seen this before, doesn't know what it is -- but has meaning to the audience. ... We wanted [this scene] to be a more personal story. Something that she couldn't comprehend that was overwhelming to her, frightening to her. That was taking her through all of these elemental experiences. Of fire. Of rain, snow [and] wind. But also that she was being confronted with truths about The Force, about the past, the Knights of Ren here, the past for herself. She realizes the cries that she heard were actually her own cries as a young girl being taken away from her family. And then she hears a voice. 'Rey.' And that's Obi-wan Kenobi."


The design team were also considering the symbolic connection between the light and dark sides, and these elemental forces, when designing TFA.

"Early on, Rick was really keen on bringing this concept of fire and ice together visually. He suggested, because I had one lightsaber that was blue, 'Why don't we make it a double lightsaber?'" said concept artist Erik Tiemens."

 

Star Wars is about Anakin Skywalker, the Chosen one. They wrote a poem about it. I give up,. where is the thread I can tumble down the Skywalker rabbit hole? Leia is Sheev Palaptine.. and when she guts you its going to be the best twist of all time. I give,. continue thinking Luke is on that Island for any OTHER reason than Rey is coming to find him... What ever.. I quit.. Ill be back to clean up your guts or get gutted by this board,...

 

"First comes the day [Anakin Skywalker] then comes the night [Darth Vader] after the darkness, [Vader's Reign] shines through the light [Luke Skywalker] the difference, they say [Leia Skywalker] Is only made right [Yoda tossing in another Skywalker at the end] by resolving the gray, [This trilogy] Through refined Jedi sight" -- Yoda, or us the viewers...

When the ROTJ ends, we get a bonus Skywalker... That choked Jabba out and then the "Force Awakens" and Leia Skywalker birthed Little Vader.

 

I'm not trolling. I'm following the force. I'm sorry, its not a popular concept to follow when trying to figure out Star Wars. That's not trolling. I don't know what to tell you, It's not me.

 

I_FORCE_I Here's the deal: post coherently and don't stack posts back-to-back. It's near impossible to figure out what it is you're trying to say, and "following the force" isn't really an explanation.

 

I like bananas, but bananas don't like me. Trained assassins never hurt anyone. That's why Luke, Leia and Lobot. But who knows? It could be me. Or it could be Dantooine.

Sorry, just following the force. It's taken me this far.

 

I haven't been on this forum in a long time and I haven't been able to find anything that specifically mentions this exact issue in the index, so I'm really sorry if this has all been posted before but this has really been bugging me since the teaser trailer and I need to get this off my chest.

There are currently appear to be two definitions of what “Balance in the Force” is that could cause a major disconnect between the sequels and the prequels depending on how VIII plays it:

1. Balance is the light side “win state” in which the dark side is kept in check
2. Balance is “neutral” as in a middle point that is neither light or dark

Definition 1 comes from the ol' Santa Clause of cinema himself:

So to be clear, he states: “what happens is, when you go to the dark side is it goes out of balance”.

As I understand it, this is demonstrated by Luke's critical moment on Death Star II: after being tempted by Vader and Sidious, Luke tempers his selfish hatred with selfless mercy i.e. he uses his light side to constrain his dark side and achieve balance. As the cave vision pointed out Luke's real nemesis was not Vader or Sidious, but the enemy within: his own dark side.

This is all reinforced in the prequels and The Clone Wars: the chosen one is supposed to bring balance to the Force by destroying the Sith because their use of of the dark side, even just the two of them, is keeping the Force out of balance and they were inevitably going to cause material as well spiritual problems eventually.

In the episode “Revenge”, after bringing up Qui-Gon, Maul taunts Obi-Wan with the line “Your rage has unbalanced you, that is not the Jedi way is it?” In “Overlords” Obi-Wan informs ghost Qui-Gon about Anakin's trouble with dark side by stating that “balance eludes him” Then there's the Mortis family itself: the Son rebels against the Father while the Daughter defends him.

With this evidence clearly the light side and the Jedi are pro-balance while the Sith and the dark side are anti-balance.

So when The Last Jedi teaser trailer hit and various articles were jumping on the definition 2 bandwagon throwing around words like “neutral”, “grey” or “third way” and I was able to stroke my neckbeard in smug satisfaction knowing that I had noticed these subtle details and the normies hadn't.

But, then I realised, SWTOR has been using definition 2 recently. It hasn't always followed definition 2. In fact, Revan's end fits definition 1 perfectly, the mission is even titled “The Enemy Within”. However the planet Odessen is described as an ideal meeting point for Jedi and Sith because it is “balanced”. The galactic alignment meter that occasionally pops up also proudly announces that when neither light or dark is dominant that “the Force is in balance”.This doesn't fit with the whole chosen one stuff, it suggests that balance is brought about by a 1:1 ratio of Jedi to Sith, and that the Daughter would also rebel against the Father as well as the Son.

Now these more recent expansions have the Lucasfilm story group listed in their credits. So does this mean definition 2 is the correct one? Or can it be chalked up to it being the distant past and everyone having a more imperfect understanding of the Force? Or is it simply a gameplay compromise to give dark side players a win state as they don't really have one under definition 1? Or are they just giving bioware a pass because its still technically legends?

What about the new canon though? I'll admit I have caught up with everything but as for Rebels, it has Bendu who Filoni described as balanced in the definition 2 way, even though he's sitting right next to Papa Noel in that video and Bendu didn't seem particularly “balanced” in that last episode. Then there's that season 4 trailer where Kanan says “We are the Balance Ezra, we were meant to be Jedi... “which is seens pretty definition 1.

Then to top all off there's Lor San Takka in TFA who says: “without the Jedi, there can be no balance in the Force”. So definition 1 pro-balance Jedi? I mean there's a difference between being mysterious and outright contradictory. So what exactly is VIII going to do? Will I ever be able to stroke my neckbeard again?

 

Merged threads.

 

unbalanced1138 - you are correct:

• Unbalance = Chaos - Darkside
• Balance = Serenity - Lightside

 

Were the Jedi of the old republic in balance? I firmly believe they were not. Straying to far to the Ashla (the light) is an imbalanced state as well.

 

If someone has a disagreement with you and there's a 50/50 chance that they'll either engage in reasoned debate or punch you in the face to resolve it, would you describe them as "balanced"?

How do you unbalance yourself with discipline and moderation?

 

There are two angles to this, I think. This is the way I see it:


When we talk about "balance of the Force," we're not talking about Jedi or Sith - it's the Force itself. It's certainly not a mathematical equation - i.e., 2 Jedi and 2 Sith. You can't reduce a philosophical question in that way, much as we might like to have such a definitive answer.

Light and dark will always exist in the universe, and their natural state is to be balanced. What throws it out of balance is the rise to power of the Sith, because they spread fear, anger, hatred, aggression, violence - hence their rise coincides with the "clouding of the Force" that the Jedi sense. The Jedi want the Force to be balanced, and seek harmony, not domination - by its very nature, the light side cannot dominate, because harmony cannot be imposed from above. When the Jedi do become aggressive and seek dominance, during the Clone Wars, they are slipping into the dark side, into fear, as Yoda says in Rebels - if anything, they fall because they're not light enough. They're corrupted, playing the Sith's game.

The death of the Emperor and Vader sets the Force back into balance, because the Sith no longer dominate. Light and dark still exist across the galaxy, but more harmoniously. And it's achieved by Luke not fighting, not seeking dominance, but throwing away his lightsaber.


Then there's "personal balance," which is a different thing - confronting your guilt, gaining mastery over your "shadow," having discipline, learning to be selfless. These are the hallmarks of balance. The guilt thing is interesting here, because this is probably the biggest issue Luke will face in TLJ - he's going to have to deal with that, and find his balance again. Achieving this balance is a lifelong lesson, not something that can be definitively mastered forever.


I don't expect to see a "grey" Force turn out to be the answer in TLJ. Quite the opposite, actually. Bendu did a very good job of showing where this leads - for all his attempts to be "in the middle," he ended up amoral, violent and destructive. That's not what's going to stop the First Order, or bring the Force back into balance again.

I think TLJ will actually reaffirm the Jedi way as basically correct - perhaps with a few subtle changes. Rian Johnson will be more interested in Rey and Luke finding personal balance - Luke dealing with his guilt, Rey with her sense of belonging. It's going to be a character piece, not a bit of philosophical hand-wringing.

From everything the cast have said, we can see that Luke does not want Rey on that island at first. He doesn't give her a warm welcome, and as Mark Hamill has said, his line "it's time for the Jedi to end" means he has lost his hope and his optimism. He hasn't come to some new enlightenment about the Force or what to do next - if he had, he'd have been out there working on it already, and he'd welcome the chance to start again with Rey. Instead, I think his guilt has led him to believe the Jedi must end, because he can't risk training another youngster only to see them turn to the dark side. TLJ is going to be about Luke learning that he was wrong, and finding hope again - which is why Rey's "Jedi Training" costume is the one she wears in the second half of the film, and why Kathy Kennedy says "Jedi compassion" will become a bigger theme in VIII and IX.

So for all the attention given to Bendu and the Guardians and whatever, TLJ will be the definitive statement that, actually, the Jedi were basically right. It will be their triumphant return.

 

Hence the movie title "The last Jedi"

 

Yep, because at the beginning, Luke is the last Jedi remaining. In the same way Kanan is "the last Padawan." The TFA crawl, and Snoke, told us that, and that's what Rian Johnson said the title refers to. But he also said "the meaning evolves over the course of the film" - so by the end, it either becomes a plural (Rey and Luke) or, god forbid, just refers to Rey.

Believe me, they're not ending the Jedi. Not a chance.

 

Still doesn't sound like their triumphant return to me.

 

That'll be the story of the movie. Leading to Rey turning up with her lightsaber, a fully-fledged Jedi apprentice, on Crait at the end.

At least that's what I think

 

The Balance is the destruction of the Dark Side of the Force that's why Anakin was the chosen one
Because he would destroy the last Sith (Sidious)

 

Dunno, I wouldn't be too sure about that.

The leaders of the CotF apparently believe that there is no darkside at all (quote from EE).

 

I was going to bring up that quote from EE as well about there not being a dark side.

This EE quote from the Journal of the Whills was also interesting

“The truth in our soul,
Is that nothing is true.
The question of life
Is what then do we do?
The burden is ours
To penance, we hew
The Force binds us all
From a certain point of view"

 

It has been suggested many times, but I'm gonna place my bets on the "Balance is a healthy acceptance and processing of the darkness within ourselves."

 

It has been suggested many times, but I'm gonna place my bets on the "Balance is a healthy acceptance and processing of the darkness within ourselves."

 

It has been suggested many times, but I'm gonna place my bets on the "Balance is a healthy acceptance and processing of the darkness within ourselves."

 

Yes, it was just suggested many times.

Sorry, JoJo, I couldn't resist.

 

But that implies that its an existential universe when Lucas states that they "live for a purpose and must discover what it is" which suggests there is objective purpose and meaning in the GFFA.

He says the "dark side is pleasure" i.e. giving into your base desires. So can't destroy your dark side. You can only master it using your light side. That's what Luke's moment appears to be about, him achieving self-mastery. Its not about "fighting is bad" because the Rebels have just cause to fight the Empire, not because its quick, easy or pleasurable, but because they have to. The Emperor tries to get Luke to fall by tempting him with the pleasure he would derive from killing the SOB who threatened his sister, killing him because he wants to not because he has to. So the Sith are then unbalanced because they're addicted to pleasure and sow chaos by trying to get their next fix and the Jedi are balanced because they master their desires and help others.

It all makes sense the way Lucas explains it. So are they abandoning his ideas completely then?

 

I would say the imbalance doesn't happen instantaneously but is likened to a very slow and gradual creep - one small step or movement at a time. Hence, the Old Republic Jedi allowed things to change (slowly one step at a time) by the governing body(s) (senate). Each of these small steps slowly warped the Jedi leading them away from the Light.

 

i think it was that yoda comic with the rock giants someone posted before that led me here, but my take on bendu is that he thrives when the force is in balance on his isolated world removed from the galactic conflicts. he didn't appreciate hera's band of rebels bringing unbalance to his world, but was able to work it out with kenan and restore balance. until... kenan "brought war" to his world. that he could not forgive, and he became a force of destruction to drive all the the humans/humanoids/etc. (they're not exactly quiet creatures) from his world. once they are gone, things are balanced again in his little part of reality and so he can be at peace again. i think that bendu is a creature, an ancient powerful one, like one of the rock creatures in the comic. they became upset when the force was out of balance on their world too. bendu is a sort of armchair buddha in that he's fine until conflict is brought to his doorstep, at which point he loses his ****. it's a rather animal response from him really as the environment outside of oneself need not make it so one can't be at peace internally. bendu however can only be at peace really if he is left alone, or if those with him will agree to be in harmony. he can't handle the other way.

anyway, i think i largely agree with you in that i think that the point is that the jedi confront the dark side when it is dominating the force and going too far. that is their ideal role, to keep the dark at bay. it's not their role to get rid of the dark though as it will always exist and it is part of the natural order of things. the sith and other darksiders however try to draw upon the darkness in ways that are "unnatural" to become gods with ultimate control of reality. and that is not balance.

in a way, kenan and bendu want the same thing - balance. but bendu can't get through the conflict necessary to achieve it. another matter is that he is ancient. he's seen the dark gain hold, lose hold, gain hold... in the great long term picture the force is always in balance (eventually). what is there to do? why worry about some tiny scale of time? he's just a rock and the sun rises, it sets, it rises again, it sets again... and he just sits there. such is the force and there is then nothing to do. there is no point in trying to make the sun rise when you know it will rise on its own anyway.

bendu actually also reminds me of the people of canto bight if they indeed wish to exist outside of what's going on. the galaxy can have its wars and they will exist apart from that on their own world. a separate peace.