ST Lightsaber Combat in the ST

this thread is so unbelievable right now and i thought i set the bar low lol.

this idea that disney has an anti-male agenda and just wanted to have a duel where a disney princess beats a dumb weak male. first of all few people interpret kylo as weak. second of all in many disney princess movies (not in the newer ones but a lot in the older ones) the princess (often waiting around) gets rescued by a male who is meant to be portrayed as charming, overly skilled, brave, and with little to no flaws, who defeats an evil female character. i'm so glad rey is nothing like that. I thought all the sexists were boycotting star wars so how would they know?

btw, i think it is very likely that this is setting it up for kylo to defeat rey in the last jedi, since you are all dying to see men always win. thankfully they wont write it that way for those reasons.

these duels are also by far the most realistic in the saga. I think that the real reason that people don't like this duel don't really understand the characters and what their objectives are. this isn't and clearly isn't intended to be vader 2.0 obliterating a couple of weak heroes.

this is a strong darksider with some jedi training (we dont know how much) who is conflicted and wounded going up against a skilled warrior trained from birth and a scavenger who has been learning to survive her whole life, and who is to be captured, not killed.

just looking at the set up on paper there's no reason rey "is supposed to" lose.

 

Typical Rey lover response.
It didn't show her as competent, it showed her as overpowered. And the villain as weak.
God forbid she follows the normal hero progression path, that would obviously be sexist.

 

This is a very direct warning: stop the personal attacks and the baiting. You have made a habit of this across several threads.

 

#makeforcepowersconsistentagian#

#ifyoudon'tlikeSUPERREYyoursexist#

 

Well, considering that force sensitivity is indeed a superpower of sorts, there is an element of truth in that some of the people complaining about Rey just dont buy a woman being strong in the force, with that strength coming to her easily, even though we have seen strength in the force coming easily to many characters

 

What if instead of using the 'close eyes in peril, open them in complete domination', we were given:

Rey used some of the skill she had shown earlier and used her established fighting technique with a jab and/or rake directly to Kylo's wound which sets an actual reason for him to lose composure and her to assume the dominant position where her style is more like Maul's (lots of physical hits mixed in with the saber attacks).

What if instead of Rey going from knocked unconscious to force superiority, right back to running weakling, right back to dominating, the ebbs and flows were instead a bit more realistic. Points of winning the fight by each, but not dominating to such ridiculous degrees back and forth.

The reality is we were given a terrible ride in the Kylo v. Rey saber match. Finn v. Kylo was actually handled rather well. It was clear Kylo was toying with him, got overconfident and temporarily paid the price, got serious which ended the fight in a quick devastating fashion. That matched both of the characters established for Kylo and Finn perfectly (and mirrored Luke v. Vader ESB).

The Rocky style comeback of Kylo over Rey in The Last Jedi would actually make this wild see saw ride of domination even worse. Somebody else already established why perfectly with two simple words: diminishing returns.

EDIT: Also establish what really made the OT sabers so great. It wasn't about acrobatics v. swinging wildly. It was about verbal taunts and emotional discussion. So what if Rey wasn't immediately on a complete retreat from Kylo but instead was simply being outmaneuvered, but not necessarily overpowered.

Kylo is verbally taunting her by asking her what she is fighting for. Maybe bring the conversation to her family and establish they are a lot a like in that their family abandoned them. Make her question why she is even on the side against him when her new mentor is in fact everything she despises in a father. This would actually set up the "I can train you" line much better, instead of it being out of the blue.

Rey follows up on her previous taunts by questioning his strength. Tell him "I can feel your hesitation. Your doubt. Your pain. Your exhaustion."

Perhaps, as Luke needed help from Han, Chewie arrives with the Falcon earlier. Perhaps when Kylo is giving the "I can train you" line, which surprises Kylo, allowing Rey to get that damaging punch to the wound which shifts the balance of the fight.

The entire Kylo - Rey duel was amateurish as is. It has nothing to do with XY XX.

 

If Finn closed his eyes and said the force, then he proceeded to Kick Kylo's butt in his fist ever duel, I would of thought that was just as stupid as Rey's win. People say Kylo is no Vader but he did things that we NEVER saw Vader do in the OT. Kylo was in no way portrayed as a weak wannabe darksider in the TFA.

 

If you think that all that happened for Rey to win the duel was "closing her eyes and saying the force", then you weren't paying attention.

If you think that the unique abilities that Kylo Ren had demonstrated that he was more powerful than Vader, then you definitely weren't paying attention

 

If you want to go into detail about what these were I'd be glad of it. Then you get into what is actually "new" or a continuation of themes.

Obviously the point was as per what JJ and co set out to do was to take the story back to that area that constitutes the soft reboot method. While Lucas established the poetic rhyming in Star Wars through in part the OT (ROTJ to ANH) it didn't really come to the foreground until the PT. In the case of ROTJ people thought that Lucas was simply out of ideas and reusing elements which in part was probably true as well as planned in action.

I'm never entirely sure what people mean by "new" though. It's all about the mix of what is Star Wars and the thematic elements that are part of it. Then you add in the characters, design, and all the other numerous elements.

Well if I have to go into forensic mode as opposed to analysis mode then they are burying it deep, deep down. Rogue One had no trouble being new and bringing newness in all kinds of ways in terms of story, character, design etc etc.

So what was the difference?

I don't follow the argument. If I talked about something that is "digital" then first I'd have to recognize it as such and then state whether or not I agree with that being to the positive or negative. The negative is what "too" would suggest.

The choice to do so IS the personal preference. TFA is clearly a very digital movie. Immensely digital as we know for a fact of production as well as is evident in the movie itself. That is just how movies are.

You might notice that when talking about TFA I am fine with the acting, cinematography, music, design, locations etc etc. For what they wanted to do at base they did a fine production overall. That isn't what I am really talking about for the most part. Sure I make some light hearted jabs about it but don't take those too seriously.

I think I have made that clear again and again. The negatives for me are clearly stated in that unlike Lucas' movies and R1 this movie was all about delighting fans and looking backwards. R1 also looks back but still takes the story forward. TFA was deliberate in that it wanted to mainly reestablish a certain narrative based on ANH mainly as a place to go forward from. As I said from the start I hope that the following movies improve the basic blocks they set down.

No. It's about the lack of following Lucas' own method which was to progress the story and not fall backwards on the rhyming to the point that TFA did. R1 also used quite a lot of this rhyming but not to the degree or open way that TFA did.

That would be a devil's advocate argument for me then. I could do it but wouldn't believe in it for a second. TFA could have got the same effect if wanted but also be "new" at the same time.

As I said it's easy to see lots of ROTS in TFA because they are both using ANH but the ANH in TFA is in your face evident to the extreme while the same is very much harder to see in ROTS. The opening of ROTS rhymes with the ending of ANH and the medal ceremony. Not easy to call that one. As Vader gets cut down by Obi-Wan Luke gets his medal. The father falls and the son ascends. The inversion of the paths of father to son.

That TFA decided to use the story method that Lucas used in the PT is very Lucas of them. It's the application that was lacking to my mind because they decided to go far too close down the overt remake route. They took the form Lucas set up but not the substance behind it.

The actually new thing that was used was the overt mystery angles which I am not against in concept but I think they one worked against the other. So on the one hand we get the rhyming but we don't get the full rhyme as such because it has to be cut off due to the mystery angle.

We didn't know Luke's full story but we got a full story in ANH. Rey's story is this odd delaying tactic. The delay is her story for this movie. We'll hopefully get her actual story in TLJ and this will then rebound on TFA and like The Sixth Sense we can look back on it and get more out of it then is now available. So again in concept much like the PT's effect on the OT.

 

Jester J Binks

I'm so glad they didnt have rey and kylo saying things like "i can feel your pain and your exhaustion". that type of dialogue worked for luke vs vader but even then it was corny and it wouldnt work here.

what we got in this film is unique for star wars. they are actually trying to kill each other, unlike in the ot, but it is choreographed as such, unlike in the pt. as such we get something much better than "i can feel the conflict within you" as they slowly swing at each other. we get the stare downs, the yelling "traitor", the "come get it". even though i love the esb and rotj duels, they made the right choice of dialogue and overall tone for this fight.

 

carlcockatoo
Thanks for taking the time to read and respond. Obviously I disagree, so I'll respond to what you raised directly.
1. I don't know many people that didn't love the taunting and verbal jousting associated in the OT. As far as slow swings, that really only happened in ANH. So dialogue doesn't have to mean the action lowers its DEFENSES!!!. <Quick Vader breath>
2. Verbal intimidation is actually a very real element of combat; psychological warfare to varying degrees. Combat sports such as boxing have people like Floyd Mayweather that have literally carried on conversations with the telecasters about an upcoming football game during his own fight. It makes the other person freak out that they are getting their butt kicked and the guy doing it isn't even trying that hard. Maybe they better not give him a reason to get serious (ending in a one sided domination as the result). Mike Tyson was all about not only winning before the bell even rang, but talking to the opponent about how much he is enjoying the complete collapse of his opponent. Tyson Fury recently beat Wladimir Klitschko simply by convincing Klitschko he was legitimately crazy. His actual boxing skills were atrocious, but his mind game was dominating. So verbal warfare isn't just not corny, but realistic. I've been in very few fights myself, but the fastest way to end it is to work on early frustration and convincing the other person you aren't even trying, but you are one more lunge away from getting serious (giving them a reason to find a way to stop).
3. When I played sports competitively, I became a better player overnight when the opponent for my zone (a Senior to my Freshman) talked in my ear nonstop about how much he was going to make my life a living hell for the next hour. I was all about technique up until that night. After that night of my complete embarrassing destruction, I really played it back in my head and realized how to effectively play the mental games. I could count on at least one personal goal every game by telling the person I was going to slam my right elbow into their face when the ball was passed to me. First pass, I'd feint a move toward them with a raised bent arm and they would ALWAYS flinch allowing me a completely open shot without actually having to resort to the flagrant foul.

So Kylo giving Rey reasons to question her seriously new and untested alliance would be either a) a perfect distraction to win by force via confusion or b) win by her "submitting to his training". He already started it with his talk of her friends being traitors and other *bad things*.

Rey knowing that Kylo had doubts of his own level of greatness would be the perfect scab to pick at. Kylo would most likely either a) begin to overthink his technique instead of letting his clear training flow to a victory or b) underthink and attack with frustrated aggression. At no time did Kylo feel he could lose to Finn, so it was essentially a sparring lesson in which he schooled Finn. He not only had the physical advantage, but that clear advantage gave him the mental edge. Boyega acted this out beautifully with the looks on his face with each Kylo attack. Finn was fighting scared (which immediately invalidated anything he could have gained with "Come get it." Kylo simply responded with "glad to."

 

An issue I have with the duel is that it makes a rematch to be a bit senseless.

I know that the common go-to is that Kylo was critically wounded and on the verge of death, and that’s a substantial reason why Rey was able to defeat him. I don’t see it that way at all, due to what the movie showed me.

I repeatedly saw a bowcaster that violently killed everyone that it hit. I saw Kylo get hit with it too. Not only did he not die or explode off his feet like every single other person, but he went on a little couple mile run after that and got into a fight with 2 people... where he didn’t look at all physically impaired when it came to range of motion. The only logical conclusion I came to was that, for some unexplained reason, the bolt that hit him wasn’t nearly as powerful as it’s been all movie long, resulting in a superficial wound. Enough to cause some pain and bleeding, but not serious enough to substantially impair him from doing anything. I’m just going by what was collectively shown.

Which ultimately means that a total novice defeated an experienced and powerful Force user who had years of training under a Jedi legend and the supposed equivalent of a Sith Lord. She didn’t defeat him because of a stroke of luck, or due to outside interference. The novice straight up out-dueled the trained dark Jedi just winging it, and all on her own.

I say a rematch would be senseless because of where they stand in their development. Kylo is 30-years old and has been training for years. He is so skilled and powerful that Snoke apparently sent him to attack Skywalker and his Jedi, where he wiped them all out and sent Luke fleeing. He’s clearly not meager, or he never would have stood a chance, and Snoke never would have sent him to begin with. At his current skill level and age, how much better can he really get? 5% better?

Rey, on the other hand, is young, and has no idea what she’s even doing. There’s nowhere to go but up. If her novice self can already defeat a heavily trained dark Jedi, just imagine what she’ll be able to do after she gets some expert guidance under her belt. After she actually learns the technique of how to fight with a light saber, and becomes proficient with Force powers. She’ll be exponentially far more powerful and formidable after she knows what she’s doing.

She’s already proven to be better than Kylo, so now she’ll be 10X better than him.... so what’s the point of even fighting again?

 

We know as little of Ren's actual training as we do Rey'sbackground. He's a usurper. An executioner of defenseless old men and a backstabber.

We saw Ren being less successful at repelling Chewie's blast as he had been earlier. It does not mean that Kylo is somehow superhumanly impervious to injury. His wound clearly impairs him from making short work of Finn and Rey in spite of the advantage he undoubtedly has, to a degree.

 

Trying to quantify power levels of films characters in order to determine who should win is pointless, since we don't have actual numbers to work with like in say, a video, card, or tabletop game. I much prefer a narratological/psychological approach, with regards given to the characters' mindset and thematic significance. If we were to apply the former approach, all of the Star Wars films would fail under scrutiny. For example, in TPM Darth Maul manages to kill Qui-Gon Jinn, a Jedi master, but loses to Obi-Wan, a Jedi padawan. But since Maul beat the more powerful Jedi (as implied by the connotations of the word "master") but lost to the less powerful one (as implied by the connotations of the word "padawan"), isn't that a contradiction, since it implies that his power level is higher than Obi-Wan's and he shouldn't be defeated by him? If we take the latter approach, however, it makes sense because it signifies Obi-Wan's transition from padawan to knighthood, having proven himself worthy in the eyes of the Jedi council.

How does this relate to TFA? Well throughout the course of the movie Rey has refused the call of the Force, but when she is backed up against the wall and decides to call on it, it is indicative of the climax of her spiritual journey where she finally accepts her calling. Like Obi-Wan, placing her trust in the Force allows her to overcome the monster in her way. When it comes to movies, thematic significance is much more important in determining the outcome of fights than power levels and training. If you want the latter, go watch Deadliest Warrior or Screw Attack.

 

It was a great-looking duel.

 

I think the duel was done quite well given the surrounding circumstances. As mentioned before, Kylo was wounded and conflicted; Finn has had weapon-based close combat training, and Rey has not only a natural force ability she's just discovering, but also is no stranger to fighting for her survival and rather adept at wielding a long sword/staff shaped weapon to defend herself (specifics of sword vs. staff combat techniques notwithstanding). Although not by any means my favorite of the SW duels (in fact it's my 2nd least favorite), I still feel it was appropriate for the environment and the characters' circumstances. On top of that, IMO no one really WON this duel per se. I'm sure if a big rift didn't open up in the ground beneath them separating them from eachother's reach, Kylo Ren would've continued until he either won or lost. Either way, this was a duel not made so we can be dazzled and say "awesome!!!" at the choreography and tricks, a la Maul vs. Obi-Wan, but rather made to specifically keep the characters and their motivations as the main focus of the duel.

I'm fairly confident we'll see something abit more "awe-inspiring" so to speak in terms of choreography in TLJ, rather than more of the same, so I personally can't wait for that!

 

Because it makes for a great story? That's what this whole thing is about after all, not matching up equals as opponents or elevating the strength levels of the characters. It's like saying like that Obi Wan beat Vader on Mustafar, so why should they they ever fight again....

The duel in TFA proves nothing except that Rey beat Kylo that time under those circumstances. In a rematch, Rey runs the risk of hubris, and Kylo has revenge as a motivating factor. They'll have completely different reasons to fight again than when they met the first time. Why characters fight in stories means far more than their fighting abilities.

 

i think they did the duel fine but people love to complain about it still. they set the whole movie up spelling out for you that kylo is emotional and untrained they also spend the movie showing you that rey is stronger in the force you see that with how kylo reacts to her and snoke when he finds out. she does moves that even han would struggle with in the falcon.

they then for a third of the movie show off how strong chewie's bowcaster is leading us to the end duel.

they then have anakin's lightsaber call out to rey in the force they have never shown anything like that in all the movies so making it even more obvious just how strong she is in the force. rey resiste shutting her self away from it. we get the whole maz speech to rey about letting it in.

we get to the end of the movie and a conflicted kylo kills his father beliving it will make him stronger but if anything it makes him weaker standing there reeling from the moment he doesn't even sense chewie shoot at him with the bowcaster before it hits im in the guts. so now in agony both physical and mental he chases after finn and rey

he toys with finn in the duel arrogantly showing how much better he is then finn feeding on the despair as finn fights to save rey.

again they show you who is stronger in the force when kylo and rey both call for anakins saber it fly's past his head straight to her

they duel and he is beating her but bleeding all over the snow he cant really stop from beating on his injured body

he has her on the back foot since he is a better dualist even though he isn't using the force much if at all

he taunts rey as there blades lock. and she remembers to let the force in

you can see the look change on both of there faces her cold and determined him afraid sensing her power they keep fighting she overpowers him until the hole in the cliff comes and sepperates them she helps finn to the falcon and escapes

hux saves kylo and brings him to snoke.

if kylo is concentraiting and not injured he probably defeats rey there but the force has awakened in rey and she overpowers him and escapes

 

Yeah I think if Kylo wasn't injured, it would of been different.. That Bowcaster was wiping Stormtroopers off there feet.. And I'm sure this has been asked before, and I think I remember the answer, but why was Kylo hitting his wound? If I remember correctly he couldn't feel it?

 

He was hitting it because pain can lead to the Dark side, and he needed all the Dark power he could get.

 

Is there precedent for power being obtained through the increase of physical discomfort or through aggravating an open wound?

 

Not exactly in those terms, but when he's struck by Luke in Cloud City Vader seems more powerful because he's more angry. I'd argue it's less about pain and more about the anger that results from the pain. Rather like when you have someone who has been punched in the face, and that reinvigorates them. 'Anger can be a powerful ally' and all that.

 

Vader doesn't want to kill Luke and he is not angry at Luke. If he was angry enough, then he would almost definitely kill him, with ease. Particularly in the state the Luke is in, even before Vader's bombshell.

I've never bought that anger gives one power. Anger is a power in itself but it is rarely rational or appropriate to act on anger alone. It obscures all of one's other faculties which, when exploited proficiently, should ultimately give one an advantage who is momentarily empowered solely by extreme passions which they are not in control of.

At one point of the duel, it unmistakably shows Ren distracted by the pain and impaired mobility that the wound is causing him and he disengages. His attempts to focus that discomfort into anger are only partially successful for the reasons I've given before.

Whatever connection there is with pain and empowerment, in the context of the darkside, it is shown here, as almost all darkside users are prone to exhibit, that this source of power is unreliable to say the least.