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Lightsaber pros and cons

Discussion in 'Literature' started by darthjulian777, Nov 29, 2008.

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  1. darthjulian777

    darthjulian777 Jedi Master star 2

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    Nov 28, 2008
    hat do you think the strengths/weaknesses of each of the following lightsaber styles?

    One lightsaber
    Two lightsabers
    Ligthstaff
    Lightwhip
    Backwards single like ahsoka and the secret apprentice
    one backwards and one forwards
     
  2. CloneCaptainRex

    CloneCaptainRex Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 31, 2008

    "Backwards" is called Mantis.
    Or, has Denning and his cronies put it; [hl=skyblue]Reverse grip!!![/hl]
    It has no weaknesses.
    Trust me. I know.

    SaberStaff is 2nd best, with the only problem being that people like to cut it in half. People like Obi-Wan.

    Two sabers is handy in a pinch, but requires LOTS of practice.

    Single is standerd.
    Learn this one first.

    Lightwhip is... not a sword... it's a whip..
    No comment.

    one backwards and one forwards

    That's just dumb.
    Not to mention impractical.
     
  3. darthjulian777

    darthjulian777 Jedi Master star 2

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    Nov 28, 2008
    well i mean like have you seen the last samurai i know it doesn't relate to star wars but when they attack the village the leader uses the one reverse grip and one one forward the reverse for defense and attacking with the the forward grip
     
  4. Manisphere

    Manisphere Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 25, 2007
    I always thought the backwards lightsaber thing was tantamount to holding a gun sideways. It may look cool to some but it of course diminishes the precision of the weapon. Other than batting away blaster shots, how do you attack another saber wielding foe with the thing backwards?
     
  5. SuperLariat

    SuperLariat Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Jun 8, 2003
    you use the forward facing one to defend and the reserve gripped one for slashes and leg chops
     
  6. DarthUr

    DarthUr Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Oct 14, 2008
    In real life the reverse grip, aka tactical grip or defensive grip, is rarely seen with full-length bladed weapons but is relatively common with knives. See [link=http://www.jayfisher.com/knife_grip_tactics.htm#The_Tactical_or_Defensive_Grip_Style]here[/link].

    Reverse-grip is popular in knife-fighting because it's a much more natural position for defense, gives you a much wider field in which you can attack, and allows you to grip the blade with greater strength, making it much harder to disarm you or turn your weapon against yourself than in a forward-grip.

    The disadvantages are, as you say, a lack of control and a lack of reach. These disadvantages can become crippling if fighting with a sword rather than a knife, but since a lightsaber's blade is completely weightless and is capable of slicing most flesh and armor with very little pressure, these disadvantages are probably mitigated.

    The closest thing we have to a canon interpretation of which forms are "better" are the stats associated with the forms in KotOR 2, but I think it's controversial whether KotOR 2's Form V is actually the same "Shien" as the "Shien" that involves reverse-gripped lightsabers.

    If it is, it's kind of weird that KotOR 2 says that Form V gives you increased blaster-bolt deflection and attack bonus at the cost of greatly decreased defense, given that a reversed grip is seen in real life as the *more* defensive way to hold a knife. But I can sort of see an argument for how this might be different for lightsabers -- for a weightless weapon that can cut you in half with a whisper, the lack of fine control associated with a reverse grip might be far more important to defense than the greater ease with which you can hold it near your body, at least for defense against other lightsaber wielders (as opposed to blaster bolts, which can apparently be batted aside like tennis balls).

    The +2 to attack and +1 to crit range does reflect the idea that when fighting with a reversed grip you can strike faster, harder and in a greater arc around you than when fighting with a traditional grip relatively well, I think. Again, there's no real advantage to this with real swords, where the weight of the blade means the increased awkwardness of the reversed grip will make the accuracy of your strikes plummet to near uselessness, but with a lightsaber it may be a different story.
     
  7. RebelJoseWales

    RebelJoseWales Jedi Master star 3

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    Sep 10, 2008
    [link=http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Force_lightning]I[/link] [link=http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Ysalamir]like[/link] [link=http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/DL-44_heavy_blaster_pistol]any[/link] [link=http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Stormtrooper]of[/link] [link=http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Droideka]these. [/link] Or any combinations thereof.

    -RJW, Lord of the Dance
     
  8. DarthUr

    DarthUr Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Oct 14, 2008
    Non-blaster weapons like a [link=http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/DXR-6_disruptor_rifle]Tenloss disruptor rifle[/link] or a [link=http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Verpine_shatter_gun]Verpine shatter gun[/link] are better against a saber wielder.
     
  9. RebelJoseWales

    RebelJoseWales Jedi Master star 3

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    Sep 10, 2008
    ^ Maybe, but are either of those things even vaguely reminiscent of Dirty Harry?

    -RJW, Lord of the Dance
     
  10. Lord_Hydronium

    Lord_Hydronium Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 11, 2002
    I don't know where Shien as a synonym for reverse grip is from. All I've seen is that it it's just another name for Form V; like [link=http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Image:MonCal_Form_V_SWGTCG.jpg]this[/link], for example, which is labeled Shien.
     
  11. DarthUr

    DarthUr Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Oct 14, 2008
    I believe it's from the Wizards of the Coast RPG Sourcebook "Hero's Guide". KotOR 2 was the one that then went and retconned "Shien" to be an alternate term for Form V, which up to then had always been called "Djem So" (if I'm not mistaken about all this chronology).
     
  12. Ulicus

    Ulicus Lapsed Moderator star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jul 24, 2005
    I was under the impression that the reverse grip was a shien variant. [face_thinking]
     
  13. DarthUr

    DarthUr Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Oct 14, 2008
    I think that's the retcon Wookieepedia settled on, anyway. It may be that the original Form V Shien only used a reverse grip for certain moves, and over time Form V evolved into its modern form, "Djem So", and the term "Shien" drifted and ended up being specifically used for the reversed grip that had only been seen in the old Form V.
     
  14. ixoyefreak

    ixoyefreak Jedi Youngling star 2

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    Nov 4, 2005
    With a reverse grip it is usually with a smaller blade or knife like was mentioned and used for blocking or attacking. It is very effictive attacking with a knife like that cause you can't see it at all and even if you could it would be really hard to judge it. If any of you have played Asasians Creed there is a knife that he holds backwards and uses. Its very effective.
     
  15. Vrook_Lamar

    Vrook_Lamar Jedi Padawan star 4

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    May 12, 2008
    Except for Jedi Outcast, where the Tenloss is auto-dodged by any force user.

    According the RPG, the guard-shoto is good at blocking but does less damage while the lightsaber pike is terrible at blocking but has a major reach advantage.
     
  16. Daft-Vader

    Daft-Vader Force Ghost star 8

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    Aug 6, 2008
    I'm not certain on why Verpine Shatter Guns can't be blocked by lightsabers. Quote from wookiepedia

    Now, A lsaer beam as shot from a blaster would be going at either the speed of light, or a speed just less then the speed of light (technically, if it is just a laser, then it is speed of light, but some say it is a plasma), which surely is a lot faster then any metal bulet can go. (of you want to get physics into it, KE = 1/2 mv^2, shows that the more mass, the more energy is required to get it to faster speeds)

    And also, surely a laser beam is going to be thinner then a piece of metal?

    Would this not mean it should be harder to block a laser bolt? Especially since in TPM, Qui-Gon and Obi-Wanare blocking 8 high freqency lasers from two droidekas?


    With preference to Lightsabers usage/pros and cons, 1 Lightsaber is probably easiest to use. A double-ended one requires more skill to use, but is more effective at dealing off multiple lightsaber-wielding threats (as long as you makes sure no one decides it would be more fun to cut it in half :oops: )


    Daft-Vader
     
  17. Excellence

    Excellence Jedi Knight star 7

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    Jul 28, 2002

    How dare anyone even think sabers have cons. Have they not played Jedi Outcast? [face_talk_hand]
     
  18. Vrook_Lamar

    Vrook_Lamar Jedi Padawan star 4

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    May 12, 2008
    They've obviously played Jedi Academy.

    Dual Lightsabers: pros; telekinetic death attack (not that it ever hits), you still have one saber when your throw the other one, cons; when you turn one of your sabers off, there are clipping issues when you grasp your other lightsaber two handed without putting your deactivated lightsaber away.
     
  19. DarthUr

    DarthUr Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Oct 14, 2008
    Well, if we take the video games as canon and we take our naive observations of what "blaster bolts" look like as canon, they seem to actually move very slowly -- slow enough to track with the naked eye, i.e. much slower than real-life bullets -- and they seem to be big and easy to whack aside with lightsabers.

    This makes them less than ideal weapons in just about every respect, even if you're not fighting a lightsaber-wielding foe, but a lot of this is just genre conventions -- "zapguns" in pulpy sci-fi have always been made so you can easily track the "bullets" while watching the movie or playing the game. People like Dr. Curtis Saxton argue from mistimed film effects -- i.e. explosion damage showing up "before" a blaster bolt hits -- that the "bolt" itself is this fast-moving invisible thing and what we see are just "tracer" effects, but I find that kind of speculation annoying.

    It is very clear that blaster bolts are physical objects that move slower than light, though. "Beam" weapons that actually do move at the speed of light exist in Star Wars and are contrasted with ordinary blaster weapons.

    If I wanted to retcon this to make sense, I'd say that because lightsabers and blaster bolts are made of the same "material" lightsabers interact very strongly with blaster bolts and basically block and deflect them automatically.

    Then I'd say that the Verpine shattergun may take its name from the fact that its projectiles are designed to splinter and fragment under the slightest stress, so that a lightsaber can't bounce the projectiles away neatly but will only create a cloud of smaller shards, thus making it impossible to block them conventionally.

    This is clearly just game mechanics, though. You can tell by the way any saber-wielding NPC has the power to do this, even the crappiest ones, while *you* as Kyle don't get to auto-dodge anything even when you reach Jedi Master. Tenloss rifles remain one of the best ways for NPCs to kill a saber-wielding *player* all through the game, and the same holds true in multiplayer.
     
  20. Daft-Vader

    Daft-Vader Force Ghost star 8

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    Aug 6, 2008
    I have an idea. [face_idea]

    Lightsabers deflect laser bolts. However, they don't deflect metal objects. When Qui-Gion Cuts through the blast doord, or Obi-Wan slices up Battle Droids, they aren't deflected (otherwise the BD would just fall over) they melt the metal. A metal Verpine shatter bolt would probably have enough speed to get through the Lightsaber, maybe melting slightly. this could even cause the bolt to shatter.

    Only an idea, but it makes sense to me at least...

    Daft-Vader
     
  21. DarthUr

    DarthUr Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Oct 14, 2008
    ...But then lightsabers *are* shown as deflecting solid-matter projectiles in other contexts. They deflect bowcaster bolts, the "metallic bolt" ammo fired by the Imperial heavy repeater, the bullets from Tusken bolt-action rifles, etc.

    A lot of this could just be oversimplified game mechanics. But I do think it makes for a better canon to have the Verpine shatter gun's unblockability be a specific feature of the Verp -- hence why they'd emphasize the "shatter" as part of the weapon's name -- rather than just making all anti-Jedi assassins look like idiots for not carrying simple firearms instead of blasters.
     
  22. Dawud786

    Dawud786 Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Dec 28, 2006
    Sabers deflected metal objects in Dark Empire II on Ossus.

    Also, the reverse grip isn't all that versatile, particularly not for a weapon the lenght of a lightsaber. It looks cool, even with knives it's not as effective as a normal grip that offers more control. You can deal with a reverse grip knife at close range, but if it's blade up from the top of the fist that person's going to have enough control of that black to slice your wrists up if you manage to get a grab on him.

    There is no style that is all pros. The pros and cons of a lightsaber won't merely depend on the way you wield, but on the very nature of the weapon itself. It's all blade, and there's some benefit to that... but it's all blade... there's some serious handicap because of that too.
     
  23. darthjulian777

    darthjulian777 Jedi Master star 2

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    Nov 28, 2008
    i think you can't block the shatter rifle because there are too many to block. the rifle could possibly be shooting 1000 a minute or more. i think if one bullet was shot it would be blockable but because so many are bieng shot it would be too hard
     
  24. Froggy22651

    Froggy22651 Jedi Youngling star 2

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    Jul 31, 2005
    You know, making a saberstaff hilt with phrik or cortosis alloy plating might be an investment that would pay off in situations like that.
     
  25. RebelJoseWales

    RebelJoseWales Jedi Master star 3

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    Sep 10, 2008
    [face_idea] I've got it! Ysalamir-carrying droidekas with aftermarket DL-44s made out of a phrik-cortosis alloy with Saberstaffs attached under the barrels! Pure genius!

    Seriously, though I'd just go with whatever form Bane used, though it's never explicitly stated that I know of. After all, Bane was able to kill two Jedi masters and (I think) a knight in a duel.
     
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