Lightsaber speed vs. skill...

Excellent thread topic Master MacetheCouncillor

This is NOT meant to offend anyone, but I've noticed that the only people around here bashing NG's George Lucas supported Lightsaber ranking are fans who seemed a little "peeved" that their favorite character was "dissed" to a lower tier than they expected.

These are mostly Obi-Wan Kenobi fans who feel that since he survives ROTS and others don't he should "automaticly" be ranked higher.

This notion makes no sense what-so-ever based on whats shown onscreen.

1. We see Darth Maul suffer only a split hilt before easily force pushing Kenobi down a shaft....and from there its classic Lucas storytelling....leaving us to wonder..."why someone with split second Sith level reflexes cannot adapt to a man jumping from 12 feet below his position unarmed and landing armed in from of you after clearing your entire body?"
We're led to believe in ROTS that this manuver is childlike and suicidal...by the way Kenobi tells/warns Anakin against trying a version of it.
So basicly what we see is Kenobi get schooled by Darth Maul and somehow win in the end....but Kenobi is definitely shown NOT to be better than Darth Maul.(Not even hardcore Kenobi fans can say Kenobi displayed more skill)

2. Next in AOTC....Kenobi is shown to have trouble even with non-force using Bounty Hunter Jango Fett...and later he is schooled by Count Dooku....only Anakin and later Yoda save him from certain death.

3. Next in ROTS he is once again schooled by Dooku and left for dead....to be carried away by Anakin. He later holds his own against Grevious before losing his lightsaber and being beaten down in hand-to-hand combat. He is saved from death at the last moment by the luck of a waiting blaster a few yards from his position.

4. He shows us his defensive mastery on Mustafar and beats Anakin straight up.

But he is NEVER shown in a manner that would suggest he is at the Yoda/Mace/Sidious level. He gets disarmed in almost all of his fights....and seems to be more lucky than good. I love the Kenobi character personally, but I don't see why some feel you must tear the other ones down to build him up....regardless of what Lucas says?

 

This is an entirely nonsensesicial sequence - I really wonder what Gillard has been thinking when choreographing that. No-one fighting for life or death would be waste energy as senseless as that.

Trouble is that most fans discussing duels here have no knowledge of fencing. Thus the perception "the faster and the flashier, the better", and the idea that Mace's or Sidious' lightsaber techniques "suck". I wish there were more posters here with a background in fencing, I would be very interested in their comments on this.

 

The "fencers" were here months ago....you missed them

They may return...

 

No, I've read the posts - I'm just regretting that they have left, although I can understand it. If I'm not mistaken, the essence pointed to the same MTC posted. Lightsaber twirling without even touching the weapon of your opponent for several seconds is an utterly useless waste of energy.

 

I don't know. Maybe it was just for pleasing the fanboys since Gillard from his background must know that this is nonsense. No-one would ever fight like that in a fight that is about life or death.

 

Well he should have followed Christopher Lee's lead....because Lee IS a real life swordmaster who's taught the sweet science for decades.

 

I thought he had a martial arts background at least. But then again, the flashiness vs. effectiveness question was a major issue in Wu Shu training for some time. Maybe I should do some research on his biography.

 

If to are very equal in style, realisticly they would NOT try to "out-speed" the other. That wouldn't realisticly work since they both know thier opponent so well, counter attacking is alot easier. Therefore I wouldn't imagine that they tried to win by speed; if Nick Gillard would have taken wanted to give a realistic fight (which probably would be a bit boring) he would rather let them both be very very carefull with each and every move; perhaps Anakin should be quite more offensive since he's alot more aggressive.

What I'm really saying is:
Don't try to analyse what the characters intention of their fighting was! This is stagefighting, which means alot of aesthetic, very little logic!

One should know that there are some "logic" fights around, forexample the swordfighting in korusawa; this is though not stagefighting in the same manner. The difference is that one is "Action" and the other is "Drama". Action wants solely (well, most often anyways) to entertain, whiles drama (at least historical) quite often seeks to show how things perhaps are.

 

Without some silly spins and stuff... but yes, more or less...

 

First off, how mature of you to act all defensive and tell me to shut up. Well done.

As far as fictional stories go, characters' skills are NOT what the creator says they are. They are what the story itself shows them to be. And it is perfectly clear you still do NOT get it.

I am not a biased fanboy. In fact, whilst I enjoy Star Wars, I'm not obsessed with it to even a tenth the degree you are and not even a hundredth the degree some others in here are. I see the positives in Star Wars, but I also see some major flaws in several areas.

I agree that speed and skill are separate entities, and being the fastest does not mean you are the most skilled. However, there IS a relation there, particularly if the speedier person is also more accurate. Great skill is a combination of speed and precision.

Yes, you do. I would never dispute that. There's no need for you to be so defensive though.

Lame logic there. Just because A beats C and someone says B isn't good enough to beat C, it doesn't automatically mean A is more skilful than B. If you think that, then you really are absolutely frickin clueless.
Firstly, skill alone doesn't decide conflicts. Circumstances, emotions and desire all play at least much of a role.
Secondly, a person will match up differently with different opponents. Just because they can beat B and B can beat C does NOT mean they will beat C.
Thirdly, the work fails to show Mace is superior because he has a grand total of ONE duel and ends up dead at the end of it. Obi-Wan has a number of duels during the prequel trilogy and apart from the two against Dooku (who he didn't match up well against at all), Obi-Wan won them all through perserverance.

Ah, but where's the evidence in the movies that outduelling Sidious is something "Obi-Wan can only dream of doing"?? Yoda's offhand remark toward the end of the film totally contradicts what is shown previously. Obi-Wan is shown to be fast and sk

 

In real life it does have a huge bearing on skill, slower moves are easier to block whereas faster moves aren't as well broadcasted. The reason the "quick movement" in the duel didn't win it for anakin or obiwan was because that's how Lucas choreographed it, not b/c speed =|skill. Too much attention to detail, if you ask me... Lucas doesn't think this deeply about it, so it isn't meant to be thought this deeply into because ANY movie will fall apart under this much scrutiny.

 

On my posts I always said that I never use the Lightsaber rankings as proof on a jedi's lightsaber's skills because I always thought that the lightsaber rankings were based on Nick Gillard's own opinion but I was told that they were based on George lucas's comments but i still do not use those lightsaber rankings as proof because the jedi with the higher lightsaber ranking does not always win because Anakin was ranked a level 9 and Obi-wan was ranked as a level 8 and Obi-wan won so Obi-wan proves that the jedi with the higher lightsaber ranking does not always win.






No, I believe that Obi-wan would not be beat so easly because Obi-wan's deffence are very powerful .

 

No it would not take twenty seconds because Obi-wan is alot more faster and his deffence are very strong that is the reason Obi-wan went to face grevious and speed does matter alot.

 

Let's just ignore that the person who started the thread and is so adamant about the ratings mattering the most is a hardcore Mace fan. And gee whiz, don't you know that Mace was among the group who got the highest rating! Now why would a Mace fan care so much about the rating? Hmmm... could it be because that's just about the only "proof" most Mace fans have of his supposed skill since it's certainly not shown in the movie?

And can I say that Dooku didn't beat Obi-Wan with his lightsaber skills? He beat him with a Force shove that knocked him out cold (kind of hard to defend against that). That's more of a show of Dooku's skill with the Force and not much to do with his skill with his lightsaber. Don't you think?

 

good post, I agree with everything in your post, The lightsaber rankings do not exist in star wars and George Lucas did not really make it and I never hear George Lucas using them when he talkes about a jedi's fighting skills so those lightsaber rankings are not really proof at all.