Living Jedi Dream - The Jacen Solo Discussion thread

Welcome to the new Jacen Solo character discussion thread!

[image=http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y165/YodaKenobi/redjacendiscussion.jpg]

"I want to be something more. I don't know what it is, but I guess I think there's something more to the Jedi order than we've been able to recover. I know it's out there, but I don't know what it is."? Jacen Solo, Dark Tide: Onslaught

Since obi_ew closed [link=http://boards.theforce.net/fan_fiction_resource/b10304/18278770/p1/?553] the first Jacen Solo discussion thread[/link], I've decided to start a new one.

In this thread we will discuss the rise and fall of Han and Leia Solo's most controversial child. From the kind-hearted young Jedi Knight with a fathomless reserve of empathy for all living things, to a manipulative and murderous Sith Lord. Jacen's journey began in the old Bantam and Young Jedi Knights books, continued in the New Jedi Order, and now his fall is being featured in the new Legacy of the Force series.

This will also be a resource for information on Jacen Solo and analysis of his characterization for those of us who wish to improve our writing of this important character. Fanfic challenges will be issued eventually for those interested in participating.

All are welcome to participate, but please be respectful of others and their opinions, and be certain to blacken in spoilers from the new books until 30 days after their release when the board-wide spoiler ban is lifted


[hl=green]Our first official topic of discussion:[/hl] When did Jacen Solo really fall to the dark side and what was the cause? Was it the Killiks attacking his daughter? The war with the Yuuzhan Vong and his breaking by Vergere? Was there something about Jacen from the beginning that made him destined to become evil? Or something else? Perhaps there are even some who think he hasn't truly fallen yet. Why?

And since this is our first discussion, feel free to post your general thoughts on Jacen, why you like or dislike the character and what you like about writing/reading him in fanfic. Let's discuss!

 

When did Jacen Solo really fall to the dark side and what was the cause? Was it the Killiks attacking his daughter? The war with the Yuuzhan Vong and his breaking by Vergere? Was there something about Jacen from the beginning that made him destined to become evil? Or something else? Perhaps there are even some who think he hasn't truly fallen yet. Why?

I think Jacen has always fit the profile of a sociopath. He never showed any sign of being scarred by what he did or what happened to him in the YJK. Some would say that's KJA's poor characterization, but I think that isn't the full truth. Jaina always showed more emotion and more openness about her feelings and moods, things never slid off of her that easily. Same with Anakin. But Jacen always shrugged it off, made jokes, and showed no external or internal problems with what happened.

Later, in the NJO, he starts mumbling about how he wants more like the above quote shows. He thinks there's something else there, and he wants it. He wants to achieve it. Now, the cute exterior of a child is fading, and we're starting to see we don't like Jacen at all, because as he changes into a man his inner tendencies are becoming more open, and he's shoving away a lot of human contact.

Then, after Vergere did all of that to Jacen in Traitor, it elevated the evidence of him being sociopathic, for he was no longer a child, and it is difficult to discern a single emotion from the man. And it worsens over time, as Dark Nest showed us. LOTF is the grand result of all of this, about a child born sociopathic but only now, as a 31-year-old adult, do even the most apologetic of us all see what has happened to Jacen.

With Jaina still a tormented mess, and Anakin being dead, I don't see how anyone can stop Jacen from achieving the fruition of what he believes he's destined for other than his parents and Luke, maybe Ben.

In a way this reflects Light from Death Note. Jacen thinks he can create a perfect galaxy by eliminating all that stands in their way, and now he's learning that could come at a cost of those he thought he loved.

 

When did Jacen fall? Honestly I think falling to the dark side is a long slow process, just like it was with Anakin Skywalker. I think his fall has been a long time coming. It's actually interesting to see how Jacen uses even his youth now to justify his actions, and not loving his parents any more.

The first point I realized Jacen had it in him was in SbS when Anakin handed the mission over to Jacen. Jaina would have done the right thing for her heart, and Anakin knew that. Jacen did the "right thing" from a detached, logical, end justifies the means type of mindset, which has now evolved into his Sith rationale.

 

The first point I realized Jacen had it in him was in SbS when Anakin handed the mission over to Jacen. Jaina would have done the right thing for her heart, and Anakin knew that. Jacen did the "right thing" from a detached, logical, end justifies the means type of mindset, which has now evolved into his Sith rationale.

I was just about to say that!

I totally agree. Anakin and Jaina would have both followed their heart, but Jacen didn't have that "attachment" in him.


EDIT:

This will also be a resource for information on Jacen Solo and analysis of his characterization for those of us who wish to improve our writing of this important character. Fanfic challenges will be issued eventually for those interested in participating.

Did I read the word "challenges?"

*rubs hands together in anticipation*

Ooh...I'm a sucker for challenges...sign my up for whatever you have in store!

And since this is our first discussion, feel free to post your general thoughts on Jacen, why you like or dislike the character and what you like about writing/reading him in fanfic. Let's discuss!

I'm loving Jacen more and more these days. He was such a boring character in the NJO, and I was actually hoping that they'd kill him off (until I found out Anakin was sacrificed instead) *chanting: "It was for the good of the story," "It was for the good of the story"*

Anyway, back on topic...

I love reading him in fanfic! Personally, I can't get enough of the guy, and it doesn't hurt that he's turned out pretty hunky

Oh, and the whole "Sithly Jacen" thing really appeals to me...but those of you who know me would know that already

 

but... but... Discussion Threads were supposed to be ran by socks

Go Darth Jacen!

 

As far as why and when Jacen fell...

I think it has to do with the Yuuzhan Vong breaking him.

He fell to the dark side when he won the war by killing Onimi (I think it was he who killed Onimi, right?)
anyway, his enemy is not important. The important thing is that he preached the unifying force.

That's when he fell.

 

I think for Jacen that it has been a long, slow slide to the dark side. If you think about it, how can your spirit be at peace when the majority of your life has been spent in conflicts or wars of some kind. I must also take into account that Jacen has always been a seeker of knowledge, so it only figures that he would pick up some of the darker aspects of the Force.

I think that part of it has to do with his Yuuzhan Vong breaking. Vegere put him through a lot and essentially retrained him in what he would need to know to defeat the Vong. I think that in many ways his torture was a cruel retelling of Luke's own training by Yoda. They were both forged into weapons to fight the greatest enemy that they had at the time. With Luke it was the Empire and Palpatine and Vader. For Jacen it was the Yuuzhan Vong. I do not think that Vegere was a Sith as Lumiya implied in Betrayal. Yes, some of her teaching were on the edge of Sithly but that could also be attributed to her being among the people of Zonoma Sekot and being influenced by the Potentium aspect of the Force. That is pretty much what she taught Jacen.

As for Jacen preaching the Unifying Force, that was necessary, it was a lost piece of the Old Jedi Order, one that had been forgotten. The Unifying Force was taught in the Old Jedi Order. I think that if he hadn't explained the Unifying Force the Yuuzhan Vong would have won.

Also, Jacen's five year journey to learn about differents aspects of the Force can explain his turn to darkness. It can also be given to the fact that Jacen has always longed for peace and wants more for his daughter. Lumiya just happened to be holding out the prefect bait, "You can be a Sith without being evil and have peace." It makes perfect sense for Jacen to take it, because that's what he wants.

 

That's what I think it's more about than anything. Jacen's biggest fault is ambition. But it's not ambition for personal gain the way it may have been for his grandfather? Jacen longs to know everything about the Force, and doesn't believe this is dangerous. He's looked at Luke as a sort of uncurious dolt who never questioned anything Yoda or Obi-Wan taught him and wants to believe there's more to the Force than Light or Dark. When Vergere went through the process of breaking him, all she was doing was telling him everything he'd wanted to hear: That it was okay to explore every aspect of the Force and that it's what he should be doing.

Yeah, I hated him so much for that I really like that about him as a villain though, and I hope they don't move away from that. We've seen the Sith Lords fueled by anger many times now (Anakin, Exar Kun, Bane, on and on...), but we really haven't seen a character who had detached himself from his emotions so much that he lost all compassion. [hl=black] In Exile it seems like they're pushing him more towards the "angry" character,and I hope that's just a mistake and not a coordinated effort by the authors, because I want to see the way this plays out. Then again, I suppose one could argue that Jacen's growing anger is a result of him becoming more of a Sith.[/hl]

I think that's for index threads. This is just a discussion thread, no reason why anyone else would need to edit the first post I don't see anything in the FAQ about discussion threads having to be posted by socks.

Yeah, that was a really great scene. Luceno wrote it as this great action of the lightside while what was happening was really dark and disturbing. It was sort of funny reading fan reaction to it at the time, everyone believing Jacen had become some ultimate Jedi when he had really taken a big step towards the dark side.

There's some evidence in Betrayal that he was studying some Sith teachings, perhaps on Ziost...

 

Yeah, I remember them saying something about him studying on Zoist. It could also be from going to Dathomir to study the Force, I think that it said he studied the the Night Sisters, but I'm not 100% sure.

 

Yeah, and the Aing-Tii, of course. Where he learned to flow walk [image=http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y165/YodaKenobi/moonwalk1.gif]

 

I really loved Jacen when he was more uncertain about his place in the galaxy - before Traitor. I love the book but Jacen needed serious psychotherapy after that.

Do you think that he's being mind-manipulated by Lumiya (in Betrayal and since) or do you think it's his own choices that is taking him down the dark path? I have to wonder about that, especially in the last few books. [hl=black]When he said that the young Jacen, that young animal-loving, joking boy, was dead in Exile, I was really upset![/hl]

 

He said that?? Well, I guess it's progress, and he needs to get more dark, seeing as he gets his Sith name in the next book.

I'm liking Jacen's new attitude, but I'm a little confused as to how he can be so devoid of feeling (as in SbS, and towards his parents & Jaina), yet he can "love" Tenel Ka.

And he's crazy if he thinks Lumiya knows nothing about TK and Allana. She's Sith, and he spends half his time thinking about them, and worrying that she'll find out.

 

Hmm. . . I'd like to learn how to do that sometime. . . lol.

'Course, if we go into Jacen's characterizations, I think that his joking attitude was also part of a shield he put up unconsciously to keep people from asking questions. 'Course, I can also see the logic in that, especially when you don't want a certain red head finding out how you feel.

 

I found the joking to be rather endearing when he was a kid. But it was his questioning of everything around him and deciding not to use the Force, even though everyone was pressing him to do it, to be rather heroic. I always pictured him as the warrior priest, Grandmaster of the Jedi Order when Luke stepped down, honest, compassionate and wise. Damn, there goes my expectations.

 

Well, that's how they set it up in TUF...but then everything changed. I have to admit, I really didn't see Jacen becoming sith happening...I always thought perhaps Jaina again...or Tahiri (because of Anakin's "vong" vision).

 

Yeah, Jacen's joking did have that affect, I liked reading his jokes for the groans they drew from Jaina. I liked him shutting himself off from the Force as well, it does have some aspects of heroism to it but it could also be considered foolish because of the handicap it gave him. His questioning the Force though, I don't think that was the best thing to do. I think that questioning the Force aided in his more than Vergere's breaking. I never pictured him as a Sith until LOTF and it took me until half way through Tempest to adjust to it. I also pictured him as the Grand Master when Luke stepped down, but that ain't gonna happen now unless someone manages to turn him.

Yeah, it is how they set it up, sadly. I didn't really like everything they changed about the Jedi and Jacen in particular but it couldn't be avoided I guess. Jacen becoming a Sith surprised me, but I've gotta admit even the changes they made to him suck(some of them at least) I like the new possibilities it had opened up.

 

When did Jacen Solo really fall to the dark side and what was the cause? Was it the Killiks attacking his daughter? The war with the Yuuzhan Vong and his breaking by Vergere? Was there something about Jacen from the beginning that made him destined to become evil? Or something else? Perhaps there are even some who think he hasn't truly fallen yet. Why?

I also think Jacen's fall to the Dark Side has been a slow slide which personally I think goes the whole way back to the beginning of the Vong War. At that time, Jacen was a very confused boy who was finding himself and his galaxy in the midst of a war with a people no one knew anything about. Jacen then instead of lashing out or wanting to fight the threat decided to shut down and refused to even touch the Force. He was scared of it and what he could do, IMO. And we all know "fear is of the Dark Side." However, Jacen didn't only fear the Force he felt that it made him invincible. Jacen is and had always been arrogant, maybe not in a Corran Horn or Kyp Durron type of way, but he always thought that it had to be him to "save" someone or something or prevent something from happening.

Then came Myrkr and everything changed. I agree with RC about Jacen doing things in the logical, the means justify the ends way that Jacen so much portrays in SbS and afterward. Then came Vergere and her torture and her veiled Sith philosophy teaching. If he had been tottering on the edge before, Darth Chicken gave him the push that sent him down the hill. He then finished out the brutal war and finally went searching for "truth". I think that Jacen's idea of what the Force is was very muddled by Vergere. She planted the seeds and Jacen's quest gave them the fertilizer to grow. He completely embraced the idea that there is no Dark Side, which should have been his first clue that he was in trouble.

You know, I actually think Jacen Solo's fall to the Dark Side is more believable than even Anakin Skywalker's. I also think Jacen will end up being more evil. Sure Vader did terrible things, but Vader was also a puppet. Jacen as the capacity to become the next Palpatine.

After reading Exile, I even got to thinking and wondering about if Profic had always meant for Jacen to fall to the Dark Side. As some of the others who posted before me pointed out there has always been something about Jacen that had been "off" or "odd". Could this all had been planned out since the beginning of NJO? Let?s face it, two of the authors of LotF had helped develop the NJO series and it?s no secret Denning, Zahn, Luccino and Stackpole are constant contributors to the plots and ideas, Denning even hinted at something concerning the Dark Side with his Tatooine Ghost.

Does anyone else think this? If so, what do you think will be Jacen?s fate?



FL

 

I think...

wait...

you know, since I haven't read past the NJO, I don't really know enough to make an educated statement about Jacen. I still think, to a certain extent, his actual fall takes place after the NJO, but like wise TKL said earlier, falling to the Dark is a long process. It just seems like, even at the end of the NJO, he was still a lot of important choices away from being Dark.

 

It depends on what you mean by "falls to the dark side", really.

If you mean, "when did Jacen lose his moral compass and become capable of evil?", I would say that moment comes in Traitor. There is a fundamental truth of moral philosophy in Vergere's teachings - no one is responsible for your choices but you. Nobody, not even an infernal (or divine) power, can "make" you do anything. So Vergere is entirely correct to say that the Force, particularly the dark side of the Force, is not what makes a Jedi's choices. The Jedi does.

But Jacen misinterprets the lesson. Just because no one can make your choices but you doesn't mean that any choice you make is therefore correct. Palpatine says, "Evil is a point of view"; Vader says, "From my point of view, the Jedi are evil." Maybe so - but the morality of SW, particular as Lucas has defined it in the films, clearly condemns those statements as wrong and immoral. The Sith are evil. But - it's not because the dark side of the Force made them evil. It's because they choose to use the Force to do evil deeds.

So, if the question is, "when did Jacen choose to be evil?", I would say that occurs at the end of Betrayal, when he murders an innocent Jedi to protect a Sith. He made some questionable choices at the end of the NJO, and he used some questionable (probably dark side) Force powers in those final battles. But he was not knowingly making a choice he, in his own mind, understood to be morally wrong. Same thing in Dark Nest. He made some questionable choices, especially deciding that genocide of the Killiks to prevent a wider war (and save his daughter) was the right thing to do, but even then he often tried to manage them into being not-quite-as-bad (such as betraying his parents to Jag - but asking that they be captured alive and safe). He's making bad choices, but he's still trying (in his own warped way) to do the right thing.

It's in LOTF, starting with Nelani's murder, where Jacen changes his choices. Now he is, by his own reckoning, doing bad things. He knows he is making the wrong choices - but he has convinced himself it's the only way. Necessity drives him to learn the knowledge of the Sith, to take over the GAG, to intern Corellians, to issue arrest warrants for his parents. He knows he shouldn't be doing these things (just as Anakin did from the start of ROTS when he murdered Dooku), but he justifies to himself that he has no other alternative. In my view, then, this is the point where Jacen has chosen to be evil. He is making evil choices, knows he is making evil choices, and makes them anyway.

In the end, the comparison to his grandfather is apt. Anakin's descent to the dark side is slow. It begins in childhood, even, when he acquires the ends-justify-means perspective of a slave; it begins in earnest when he slaughters the Sand People to avenge his mother; and it builds to a crescendo during the Clone Wars, which undermine Anakin's moral compass just as effectively as Vergere's breaking of Jacen. But even after all that, Anakin still could make the right choices. He isn't evil - yet. Even after he murders Dooku, he might step back from the brink. Until the nightmare of losing Padme changes everything for him... And even then he doesn't choose to become evil until he turns against Mace to save Palpatine. It's only in that scene, IMO, where he truly "falls to the dark side".

Jacen's descent is parallel. Some seeds were laid in childhood - like the quote from Ruin that Yobi includes above - in Jacen's arrogance in wanting to be more than an ordinary Jedi. The Vong war accelerates his loss of a moral compass, but it's not until Vergere's breaking that he really loses sight of it for good. Then, like Anakin, he's at high risk for choosing evil. But, unlike Anakin, events don't shove him over the brink right away. Instead, it takes a decade for someone evil to manipulate events to put Jacen in a position to jump headlong off the edge - all on his own. It's only when Jacen intentionally make

 

You know, I actually think Jacen Solo's fall to the Dark Side is more believable than even Anakin Skywalker's. I also think Jacen will end up being more evil. Sure Vader did terrible things, but Vader was also a puppet. Jacen as the capacity to become the next Palpatine.

I agree! I relate to Jacen better than Anakin I wouldnt kill everyone for the sake of one but I would sacrifice the ones I love for the world if I was put to te absolute choice. In Jacen's mind that is what he is doing. I think the Nelani/ Dooku comparasion is apt since it was the kill that inducted the boys into their Sith Apprenticeship. Jacen's was cold calculated but Anakins was revenge and in a way pleasurable backed by emotion. Anakin can be manipulated by emotion I dont see that as true for JAcen. But it also was emotion that saved him. If Jacen isnt compelled by emotion what is to save him? I am not sure he can. I found his dream wih his mother taking hm out to space very chilling because I thnk it is the most merciful thing she could do.

 

Lex pretty much nailed it for me. When he killed that Jedi at the end of Betrayal, in his twisted thoughts to save Luke, I knew at that point that he was going down the slippery slope pretty darn fast. What killed me was that I could see his choices in that scene would only lead to him confronting and possibly killing Luke. Why couldn't he see that?

 

I agree...Lex summed it up pretty well...


If Jacen isnt compelled by emotion what is to save him? I am not sure he can. I found his dream wih his mother taking hm out to space very chilling because I thnk it is the most merciful thing she could do.

These are my thoughts exactly and is the reason I don't think Jacen is or will be redeemable anymore than Palpatine had been.

and obsessedwithSW I think you are correct...that could be the best thing she could have do for her son....


FL

 

If Jacen isnt compelled by emotion what is to save him? I am not sure he can. I found his dream wih his mother taking hm out to space very chilling because I thnk it is the most merciful thing she could do.

I agree with you there obsessedwithSW sending him into space is the most merciful end that Jacen could have. Well, other than having his Star Destoyer blow up while he was on board or having a fighter crash into the bridge.

When he killed that Jedi at the end of Betrayal, in his twisted thoughts to save Luke, I knew at that point that he was going down the slippery slope pretty darn fast. What killed me was that I could see his choices in that scene would only lead to him confronting and possibly killing Luke. Why couldn't he see that?

Don't ya find it sorta ironic that Jacen couldn't see it when others would have? One of the reasons I think that Jacen didn't see it is because Lumiya offered Jacen what he wanted on a silver platter, metaphorically speaking. All he had to do was embrace the knowledge os the Sith and join them. Think of it from jacen's point of view. Fulfillment at the cost of studying another view of the Force that has been misunderstood because of the actions of many whereas the few didn't embrace its destructive powers for that purpose.

In his own way Jacen is an idealist of sorts. The idea that the dark side could be vindicated if you cast aside its general greed and lusting for power and used to create a peaceful galaxy is also very appealing. Jacen's pretty much been raised in war and has never really felt totally secure anywhere, so creating a peaceful galaxy for his daughter to live in is what he wants. Even though Lumiya didn't realize fully what she was manipulating she hit the right strings and twisted him to her will.

As for him not seeing that he could possibly be the one to kill Luke remember what Luke's visions have been. It's been of someone causing him pain, if I remember correctly, not killing him but delighting in hurting him. And that's more like what the new Jacen would do than simply kill him. Causing Luke pain and making Luke wish that he were dead before killing him would be much more satisfying to the new Jacen than killing him outright I think.

 

I'm really trying to hold on to this guy. He's one of my two favorite Star Wars characters (the other being Tenel Ka), and there's apart of me that will hold on to the thought of redemption for Jacen Solo until he's dead. Though I hope he doesn't die. That would be sad.

A lot of things led to his fall...and even I will admit that he's fallen. For one, the Solo/Skywalker family isn't exactly all that "together," and Jacen's never really had a father-figure he's seen eye-to-eye with. Sometimes it's Han and sometimes it's Luke, but it's never consistant, and it's obvious that he's grown too far from both of them---and the reason for that is most likely his five-year trek. A person can't just go away and come back to the same people. In just the course of a month people change dramatically.

But all that aside, I have to say that Jacen's captivity with Vergere was his turning point. He was isolated with her at a crucial time in his life; he was confused and searching. And that age, 18-ish, is when most people undergo dramatic transformations...it's the point in our lives that we're trying to figure out who we are. For a Sith-like person to come in and make confused Jacen Solo into what she wants him to be only has a limited number of outcomes. The moment Vergere captured him, he was doomed.

That said, the Jedi Order was at a tenuous stance as well. Whereas the Old Jedi Order would have been able to give Jacen a concrete definition of what being a Jedi is, Luke and the other Jedi were struggling to rebuild the Jedi themselves.

But above all, the single thing that led to Jacen's fall was his arrogance. It's okay that he's confident in himself, because we all need that, but since his return from Vergere he's been too arrogant, and that's led to now; he doesn't realized when he's wrong.

I think a lot of what Vergere has taught Jacen is good. People need to take responsibility for their choice, and they need to make split-second decisions. But too much of that arrogance is bad, as we've seen with Jacen Solo. Jacen's fall was gradual, it happened over time, and there were a lot of factors that caused it, but that's not to say that his fall was inevitable. JU=ust a single change could have saved him. And I have to believe that he can still be saved...because I just can't let go. It's been too long.


Janet.

p.s. sorry for the long rant!