Lit Books LOTF - First Time Read Thread - No spoilers post-Invincible

The GA and the Corellians set up a meeting on a space hotel to defuse tensions, and place the Jedi in charge of security...a reasonable plan. Except EVERY Jedi assigned goes to bed at night?

In what has to be the most inept display of security in ages, a Force-user sneaks aboard the station, with some not-quite-zombie, fatally ill, assassins and proceed to wreck havoc, killing Saxan in the process...and then manages to escape. This is the most important 'summit' in a decade, and the only 'night' security was a guy in the control room? A guy who was easily 'talked' into venting himself into deep space? No roving patrols, no night Jedi detail, no fighter cover. Nothing. Can someone say Dereliction of Duty? A court of inquiry can.

If anyone reading can remember Anwar Sadat's assassination, this scene reminds me of that...make sure to eliminate the ones who are agreeable to reconciliation.

Jaina finds the Tassle, which I'm sure will lead somewhere interesting.

I'm suddenly sobered by the thought that this is the last time we'll see the Solos together as a family. ***sniff***

 

No need to even step outside the GFFA for that...this was the plot of AOTC.

 

So you would have Jacen kill for the greater good and that would be the conflict? I would have had Jacen NOT try to kill Thracken, and that causes him to get away, so he decides to take more drastic action later on.

Oh so this comes out only AFTER the GA has attacked Corellia? Very convenient.

The GA has shot it's bolt. It should have released the info about Centrepoint AS the operation went down or just did the Centrepoint operation alone.

The GA showed up unannounced while there was attacks on the leadership of Corellia, if a combined EU navy showed up in front of London, while commandos attacked no 10, they would be right to be aggressive.

Yeah this would have been a better area of contention Luke wanting the Jedi be more part of the government and Jacen wanting them to be more independent.

Interestingly Luke does commit a number of crimes against the GA in these books, not that anyone brings them up later.

Yeah, though very different in execution.

Now that would have been interesting (and flow much better from NJO and DN) than what we get.

What do you mean? all the REAL Solos will be together heaps after this /s

 

I don't think they have released any information at all, which is why the other systems are up-in-arms. It's also what makes this book so frustrating; we really don't know what has been said or done prior to where we are, so it's left to conjecture. What's odd is this was written after the Bush administration's lead up to the Iraq invasion, and they showed us the importance of getting out in front of the narrative. Omas and his administration haven't shared with the galaxy what it knows about Centerpoint and this secret navy, so they're letting other parties dictate the story. Indeed, in the after-action meeting, Omas says that they still cannot release info about the secret navy, because "...the evidence isn't incontrovertible." Which sounds worse than it actually is....most intel isn't completely fool-proof. But, properly presented, it would be a pretty strong argument. Think Colin Powell at the UN. We know now that most of information was, at best, sketchy....but it was still an effective presentation. The GA should have gone this route.

I think we can all agree that the move on Saxan was just comically dumb...but the task force portion is just gun-boat diplomacy, and can be effective. The intent was to show Corellia that the GA would not be bullied by the Five Worlds.

Yep, I would have. There's still plenty of conflict here to be explored...there would still be a secessionist movement on Corellia, and political fragmentation in the Senate that would work just as well. Indeed, the next couple of chapters have Luke meeting with Corran and discussing the fate of the 'Corellian Jedi' and where their loyalties lie. Syal has some issues fighting against Corellia...and she's like Jacen and Jaina in that she has no attachment to the place other than her father being born there.

 

But by not revealing the info plays into corellia/others arguments about the GA as the new Empire.

I can get not wanting to force the Corellian government into an embarrassing position, but then DON'T KIDNAP THEM. That is an act of naked aggression. And removes any attempt to turn things down.

 

I think they view Corellia more as a member state that shouldn't be allowed to leave just because it's flexing some muscle. A semantic argument? Perhaps. But, in this political situation, semantics matter.

I have to disagree. By showing the rest of the GA that Corellia is definitely acting in such an aggressive manner, you can win in the court of public opinion and force Corellia to admit to this fleet. And make them explain why they are building it.

This is where the story so far really falls flat...at least so far. I haven't gotten the feeling that there is rampant fear of the Vong, nor have we gotten an impression of overall indecisiveness. I get that there is always going to be a general unease about the Vong...but after a decade where they have generally stayed 'responsible', I doubt most of the population thinks about them much at all. To the point of GA being indecisive: I think that the writers of the books have gotten so used to portraying politicians as inept and morally flexible that they expect that to just be our 'default' belief. Omas was fairly competent in Swarm War, and that was the last time we've seen him...so what has changed? I don't know...because nothing is mentioned.

I don't think that anyone will disagree with you about Sal-Solo....he is clearly a Mussolini-type character who is bullying and brow-beating his way to the top. Niathal, at least in this book, cannot be painted with the same brush: as an Admiral, she is loathe to give away the strategic and tactical advantage of their Tralus beachhead. With the murder of Saxan, it looks more likely that a conflict is coming, and her advice isn't out-of-line.

She and Han were sitting on the couch in the suite of rooms they were sharing with Zekk and Jaina. So, yes, they were awake...but this isn't my idea of a 'Jedi on-duty'.

We don't know why Omas (and Luke) agreed to this plan, as it doesn't make sense, breaks probably 20 laws, and scraps close to a millennia of political precedence. But trying to activate the galaxy's only 'superweapon' is also an act of naked aggression.

 

Ok then remove just the superweapon.

Again I think Pellaeon was behind the plan.

Due to it not making any sense and breaking many laws and Generally acting like the Empire.

 

I think Ben and Jacen have done a decent job of that.

Perhaps, but this purely speculative, and I'm not willing to go that far out on a limb. Again, the problem is that what we don't know is larger than what we do.


US Supreme Court Justice Ginsburg has died today, and I find myself mired in the despair that the likelihood of actually living through something like LotF are becoming increasingly possible.

 

You know, for a civil war it was extremely short. Less than a year or more. I wonder what a more protracted SGCW would look like.

 

More failed attempts on Caedus's life. More atrocities perpetuated by the New Empire. More defections and desertions by the Galactic Alliance as the officer corps and senators became more disgusted with Caedus's extremism.

One thing I realized during my re-read was that there were only two Jedi in the Galaxy that could defeat Darth Caedus single-handed. It's why Saba and Kyle both failed. Kyp and Corran wouldn't have had any better chances.

 

Which is why I had such a tough time with it on my first read a decade ago....it's just not plausible to start a war, draw in more participants to fight this war, and then end it all in a year. Maybe the timeframe will make more sense on my second read.



Continuing on: Jacen talked to an art expert to learn more about the worry doll (My term....that's what my mind came up with when I read the description; a worry doll with long braids) Jaina found. The Twi'lek deciphered one of the braids: "There is no pain where strength lies." More, he mentioned, could be learned if Jacen were to take the doll...er, tassels, to Lorrd.

Nelani meets Ben and Jacen at the spaceport, and Ben is quickly smitten with the young woman. Unfortunately, she is still a bit smitten with Jacen, so he's left a bit deflated. The three take the tassels to one of the local art experts, and Nelani gets a call from the local authorities. An older veteran has acquired an Y-Wing and propped up the nose to point it at one of the university dorms. Our Jedi leave the tassels with the expert and go to assist the police. While talking with the veteran, Jacen uses the Force to point the Y-Wing somewhere other than at the dorms. As Nelani and Jacen are arguing about whether the older man was really a threat, the local authorities approach the detain the man. Ben gets a bad feeling and warns everyone before the older man launches a couple of missiles into the nearby wall....blowing up the Y-Wing and injuring quite a few people.

Once again, we're given this duality outcome....where either Nelani could continue to talk to the man, or Jacen could move the Y-Wing to pose less of a threat, allowing the authorities to approach causing the man to trigger the explosion. Why couldn't it be both? There was no reason for the local police to approach the man after the Y-WIng was moved, and Nelani could have continued to talk to him after the obvious threat was over. He just wanted someone to listen. I get it...this scene was written to show how Jacen was 'different' now, but his total lack of empathy for a fellow veteran was more than enough to accomplish that goal. The man wanted to talk to a Jedi, and she was willing to talk...the local authorities didn't have to approach at all. We're still in this 'don't make things too complex' hell that we've been in for 3 1/2 books, now.

A mindset that we remain in as Ben finds the ship that left the scene of Saxan's assassination. Really? We're not even going to make Ben, Jacen and Nelani do any actual detective work?

We get the last word on the worry doll...er, tassels. And I mean this actually IS the last word -- I don't think it comes up again. "He will remake himself." -- "He will ruin those who deny justice." -- "He will choose the fate of the weak." -- "He will choose how he will be loved." I suppose this should be ominous, but it just seems flat. The THIRD page of the book already gave away the end. Remember that scene in GOT (books or show, you pick), where Dany goes to the Palace of the Undying? Where she glimpses all of the things that are going to happen? THAT is how you write a scene like this....showing us things that seem unrelated, details that will be revealed as the story progresses. The worry doll just gives us a bunch of paraphrased Sith sayings....something Jacen even comments on.

Luke meets with Omas, Pellaeon, and Niathal, and they comment on Sal-Solo "....sabotaging the Toryaz Station conference." That's what we're calling assassinations now? Sabotage? Luke states that the think they should kidnap Sal-Solo to stand trial, and Omas disagrees, stating it would set a dangerous precedent. Excuse me? You've already agreed to the kidnapping of one Corellian president, why are you drawing a line now? Sal-Solo was clearly complicit in the assassination, even if he didn't plan it. For @AusStig, this does suggest to me that Luke was behind the earlier move against Saxan.

I'm going to end this quote: "We tend to operate under the assumption that it's better to get things done than to observe all of the niceties -- we consider justice to be of more consequence than law, for instance. Even justice is often over-rated. Sometimes the imposition of justice prevents redemption."

 

This a Sith saying from Darth Maul (and Palpatine I assume), so how did Jacen and Ben not know that? Luke has access to Palpatines writings how has he not told people what to look out for?

I got the feeling the guy was going to kill people anyway since he makes a joke about jedi only respecting force.

One of these later on I find very interesting post MW 2019.

So Luke is saying jedi don't need to follow the law, guess this is where his slide into darkness starts.

Looks like he starts with kidnapping and ends, worse.

 

Jacen did....or at least recognized it as being Sith in origin. I am going to expand on this worry doll a bit...because it seems like an incredibly round-about way for Shira Brie to get Jacen to come to Lorrd. She leaves it in an airlock for someone to find, but has to assume that Jacen will see it at some point. Then, he needs to find someone who knows something about the 'knot writing', and knows that more information could be found on Lorrd. She then has to assume that he'll actually go to Lorrd. What if no one finds the damned thing? Or what if Jacen wasn't even at the station? What if the very fact that the worry doll 'calls' to him makes him think that he shouldn't be the one to research the thing? Or what if Jaina doesn't want to swap missions? What if a new expert on esoteric communication is known to be on Naboo? It seems that her whole plan to lure Jacen is based on happenstance where everything goes right at exactly the right time.

This book is just incredibly frustrating....it just beats the reader down with bad logic, unexplained rationale, unknown motivations, and unrealistic explanations. We still have no idea why Han and Wedge (Han especially) are siding with Sal-Solo. I can give Wedge a bit of a pass because the GA did put him under house arrest...on Courscant. But even then....you don't have to serve on Thracken's staff. Everyone knows he's a two-bit thug, and Han is volunteering to fly missions for him? Of the main characters in this book, it's gotten to where I only understand two people now....one dies in the next chapter I read, and the other is 13.

Which I understand...but Jacen took away his threat. Once the fighter is pointed at the wall, let Nelani talk to him for as long as they can tolerate each other. And why does Shira bother with the next two (or is it three? Like I said, this book just beats me down) events? Is there some sort of baseline test you have to pass to be considered for Sithdom?

What's interesting to me is that I deliberately left off the person quoted because I wanted to see if anyone remembered (or would look up) who said it. As we discussed in our Swarm War "dive", the distance between Luke and Jacen aren't very far apart right now.

 

She is not very smart, but the books bend over to make her look smart. She does say that only Jacen would want to follow it, maybe she is right.

Well they don't like him, but they want the GA out of the Corellian system. So I get that view.

I don't know, I guess cause they just wanted to arrest him?

Maybe to have Jacen kill more people, but the guy with the bomb and the hostage reminds me of the end of the end of the second level of CoDMW 2019. When

Spoiler

one of the main characters throws a hostage off a balcony as their bomb is going to go off, in order to save lives. (it's on a timer not a person with them)

I guess she wants to see how he acts? Although he acts like a jedi, albeit a cold one (like someone who has 'fallen' into the light and become detached. which would be a much more interesting story).

but she is pretty unsubtle about this all when they get to the asteroid. (which I have issues with)

They aren't very far apart at all during these books or in the future. But it is never really addressed or commented upon (luke makes some comments about going dark if he fights him but not any of his views or actions).

 

So one thing I’ve noticed and I pointed this out before, is that in Betrayal Jacen never directly refers to Tenel Ka or Allana.

Which is even weirder when you know the book was supposed to be set in 37 ABY.

(the time gap between LOTF and DNT was never properly filled in).

Even ignoring that, Jacen has a lover and child, that most of his family doesn’t know about.

Nelani propositioning to him ought to make him think of Tenel Ka. Beyond a “yes I have someone”.

It’s bizarre. If you have a secret lover and child, your going to probably actually think about them more than you would otherwise given the stress that would put on you.

Allana is never mentioned and Tenel Ka only is indirectly.

And yet Allana factors into his decision making to become a Sith in later LOTF and is central in FOTJ.

 

Funny, I was creating a character in Torchlight II, using the randomizer to combine facial features and hairstyles. But there was no name generator, so I had to come up with one myself. I thought "she kinda looks like an Allana" so I went with "Allana". Later on, I went on Wikipedia and it turns out it's not a common name as I thought.

 

I never was a fan of some fans notion that post NJO Jacen is a clone of the real Jacen, but if anything, Dark Nest was Jacen and the clone came in for Betrayal only!

But even without clones, I think, there is a fun way to retcon the storytelling degradation post NJO with the stories own built in narrative. For Dark Nest we had the Killiks shoddy memories and mindmeddling Joining. For FOTJ we had Abeloth and her mindfuzzing powers, for LOTF it's Lumiya and the Sith meddling. Looking at the entire post NJO from that lense, one could untangle it as an era that history has a warped perception of only due to the powers in play. To recreate the "real" events and history, one might rewrite the entire era but keep characters and story intact, only flesh it out more like with added scenes of Jacen remembering Tenel Ka and Allanah, or other added nuggets for Tahiri, Anakin's memory and legacy, Vong tech and post NJO effects and all else fans wanted or missed.


Jacen's future searching in Betrayal always reminded me of Doctor Strange in Avangers: Infinity War. So why not add another angle to the story that makes full use of flowwalking like Doctor Stranges time control and has Jacen return always to annoy an enemy, like Doc Strange did with Dormammu. Jacen Solo made himself inevitable and kinda wears down the enemy via flowwalking until the stalemate is broken and the enemy recedes, weakened and ready to be defeated by others left behind by Jacen who accepted his fall and death (much like Doc Strange did his own) knowing the enemy is thwarted in the present and delayed to be defeated weakened by others in the future... like say Abeloth would be!
With LOTF as Jacen's first time around the fall and meddling, I can see some point where unnoticed to readers, he went timeloopey to do this and returned in the exact same spot and time so nobody noticed he was gone. Maybe right before his death only even.

What if he knew of Abeloth? Encountered her before on his sojourn? A sojourn novel might have given all an entire new spin in retrospective and explained his change from NJO to Dark Nest and Betrayal. He found a bigger threat but it was imprisoned still. He lacked a way to destroy it should it ever be released and his obsession to keep it quarantined lead to his fall and the release but he made up for it by weakening and entrapping Abeloth again so others could finish her off once Mortis and the Dagger are found, which he indirectly made sure via his flowwalks setting events in stone at the cost of his own future and life. It's not perfect I know, but it could be made to work even if it requires some memory meddling. Maybe Jacen had his own memory altered to not recall her or the encounter to never release her himself, yet kept the need to find a way against her, which, given the lack of the reasons and memories, resulted in his character change and baseless twisting of his original self. Might make sense, eh?

 

Jacen Solo in everytime I've re-read the NJO onwards has actually p***ed me off compared to when I read the Young Jedi Knights series. Seriously, I've already been of the opinion he pretty much led his younger brother to his death in Star by Star. So Jacen wasn't really the Jacen I knew in the NJO. So if Jacen was replaced, it was before the NJO cause clearly he was much more arrogant and self-righteous towards adults since Vector Prime.

 

I agree there was some change with him due to NJO character swap shenangians but... well its puberty.. people change!

 

Jacen grew out of his YJK phase, did people expect him to remain the silly joker for ever?

 

How did Jacen lead Anakin to his death? Anakin was the leader, he lead himself to his death. As Corran said in an earlier book, his luck ran out and his risk failed. Jacen was the only one who wanted to make sure he didn't die in vain.

 

I actually had to look up what CoDMW was...obviously, I'm not much of a gamer. Personally, I think they missed a great chance for the series with Jacen and Nelani be a Riggs/Murtaugh pair where Nelani plays the straight guy....er, girl. Trekking around the galaxy to solve crimes and learning about esoteric art.

I think we can all agree that long-range story plotting is not the forte of this series....more on that in a bit.

I actually really like this! Maybe not quite as much as a Nelani/Jacen Lethal Weapon series....but I still like it!

Good point. There is a war on...even the class clown has to grow up and fight the invaders.

Ummmmm.....okay. 'Cause he made Anakin step in front of an amphistaff meant for Jaina? Or because he cajoled Anakin into following him on a meticulously planned mission to kill the voxyn queen?





Concluding my dive into this book. I'm not sure what is more disappointing: Jacen believing Lumiya's story, or the author expecting me to believe it. Here we have a guy in his early 30s, who has spent the last 10 years listening and learning to different ideas while refusing to mindlessly follow any of them....and he goes for this one? What is Shira's biggest pitch here? That Vergere was Sith, right? Except she offers zero concrete proof. She says that Vergere learned from Palpatine and then realizes what he was and tries to kill him. This fails, and she exiles herself with the Vong. But Shira wasn't born yet when that happened, so who told Shira this? I find it highly unlikely that Palpatine would tell anyone that his one-time pupil escaped this murder attempt unscathed. Palpatine's next two pupils were also dead before Shira as born, and I cannot think of a reasonable way where Vader would know. At best this story is hearsay and legend. Throw in the fact that Jacen spent a fair bit of time in Traitor filling in Vergere on what she'd missed over the last four decades, and that she seemed genuinely surprised that Senator Palpatine was a Sith Lord---and Shira's story becomes almost impossible to believe. I think there is mention of a meeting between Shira and Vergere later in this series...or maybe it's in FotJ....but if you have to retcon a meeting it means that your storytelling has MASSIVE plot holes.

Shira goes on to argue that because Vergere was Sith, and because she healed Mara and helped Jacen survive the Embrace of Pain, that she was a good Sith. A circular argument if there ever was one. While I like the story about Vectivus, Jacen is again offered nothing concrete because only Nelani sees Vectivus as a Ghost. This section resembles one earlier in the book -- nothing but red meat for the faithful: "You're right, Vergere was wrong, and here's why."

Sentient mynocks? Using the 'dark side' to open a door?

We cannot arrest Shira because it will lead to Jacen killing Luke? Maybe if you're seeing that, it means that Shira isn't telling you the whole story. Or even a truthful one. Although, having Shira on trial might be problematic. She was an agent for the Chief of State (Palpatine), and doing mostly legitimate war-time activities (spying on, and killing, enemies), so a conviction isn't assured. Throw in the fact that Shira would KNOW what Mara Jade had been doing during the same timeframe, and a trial isn't certain. Which means this face-off isn't assured. Maybe if Shira had been the one to 'change' what Jacen saw, it would make more sense.

I wish we would have gotten chapters from Shira's POV, and a couple from Sal-Solo's. Maybe it would help us understand what everyone is after. Is Shira just after revenge? Seems an awfully convoluted way to get it...and has taken a long time to do...she and Luke broke up 30+ years ago.


Let me know if you are getting something out of these reviews...I enjoy the discussions, but this was a hard book to read...and it's not going to get any better with the next one.

 

While I agree that early Vergere being surprised about the history fill in seems to not mesh later Vergere was briefly a Sith, I think she would not lead with that and plays surprised only. It sure was a retcon born out of making Vergere larger and more influential than she already had been in her corner of gffa life. But her story with Palpatine from what we glimpsed was embedded well into the storytelling landscape, especially if keeping her motives vague and not making her a classic Sith deciever but one trying to decieve the Sith undercover or somesuch. Just how Lumiya tried to sell it was terrible.

I think, one can rationalize that Jacen did not buy any of what Lumiya said. He is too clever for that, even if it looks like he believed it, I think one has to read between the lines that he deep down understood she is trying to woo him, Sith and all, and only went with it to infiltrate her plans further as well as because he does feel that part of her lies are true. Not the what Vergere wanted but that part of her story had been non-Jedi and woven into Palpatines. In that regard he noticed within Lumiyas lies, that Vergere did find the Sith before anybody else did and got close as well as left on her own accord, a feat nobody else survived. That alone tells Jacen that Vergere must have had other motivations than what Lumiya is trying to sell.

From that angle it kinda works.

But, it still leaves the character of Vergere altered. NJO had her show the Jedi a new path, which in fact was a much older one not only Vergere but Qui Gon Jinn and others have walked before as Jedi. Vergere kinda cemented the Jedi Way the PT era nearly forgot due to becoming a dogmatic institutionalised government order. Something Kenobi and Yoda relearned post ROTS and Qui Gon knew before TPM already. That is Vergeres line though Kenobi and Yoda never reached Qui Gon or her levels at mastering that path even if coming close.

LOTF twisted her new path to not be an ancient original true Jedi Way but turned it towards a middle ground grey path that originated with the Sith trying to manipulate the Jedi via the Potentium heresy, which is related but not the same as Vergeres own self-charted philosophy.

The difference and divide stems from, I think, authors at the time like fans being undecided over the ideal end for SW. Be it true light trumping darkness, or a middle path of reconsiliation and the ever present misunderstanding of what balance means. Something which despite fancritique TROS wonderfully got right having both, light trump dark AND balance be found between light and dark in order to win. But that is another topic.

Back to Vergere, NJO had her as a different new/old kind of Jedi, LOTF turned her into a Sith who found a middle ground grey path, Legacy ran with the Sith side ignoring the middle ground and thus Vergere was larger than life, everything people wanted her to be or believe about her. Like a real world legend grown from snippets of truth. Religions based on the same history fighting over the one true way. (Waru would be proud and jealous that Vergers followings reached the diversity his Church never did!)


Now, if we are to believe some of what Lumiya tells Jacen about Vergere is true. Did Lumiya meet her during the NJO as she claims? Did Vergere, like with Krayt try to find the right angle to reach Lumiya and change her or set her up for longterm change with as few words neccessary? What would those triggers be for Lumiya? Someone a master at reading people and recognising their triggers like Vergere would instantly see through her. And the Vong seeking contact with the Sith, like Lomi and Welk, gives credit to meetings having taken place which probably would require their best asset, Vergere, to judge them.

Lumiyas triggers are obviously Palpatine, Vader, Luke and Mara. Through a Palpatine tale, true or not, Vergere got her to listen (later EU made it true!). Vader is less relevant as she was more Emperors Hand than Vaders asset in the end, but as legacy of her love's father he does have a role to play. Thus grab her with Chosen One talk from a Sith point of view, Sith'ari and so on. Palpatine and Vader both instilled some of that in her at least to build on it. As the apprentice of the Chosen One, she is to take care of his legacy and lineage. She failed with Luke, she will not fail with the next generation or die trying and after Vergeres peptalk is even willing to sacrifice herself for the mission and legacy! So Vergere talked a Sith into longterm suicide by Skywalker? Neat! Lets recapitulate, Palpatine opened the door, Vader gave her purpose, Luke is the love that drives her and she can't have and Mara the enemy she loaths and that keeps her on her toes going on. Cue Jacen and Ben. As Ben's Master she needs to go through Jacen. As starpupil of Luke and figurehead of the new Jedi Way, he is the key access to the strike at the Jedi philosophically and into the entire SkySolo families hearts.
A master at negotiation and orartory skills like Vergere needs only a few minutes to set Lumiya up on a path.

Now the elefant in the room: Vergere could only have met Lumiya before Traitor and thus not known what Jacen will become under her tutelage. Still she set all that up? A lot of trust in the future path needed to do that and unlikely. So what if she met Lumiya only during Traitor when Jacen was well underway and in the making? Does that jive with Lomi and Welks backstory? Or if meeting earlier could there have been multiple meetings afterwards?

I think, Vergere set Lumiya up on a path leading to suicide by Skywalker. But it did not involve Jacen yet, that part is her lie, her own doing given how he rose in importance to the Jedi, to the Skysolos and to Ben. Unless Vergere had visions of the future, which I never saw as her major skill. But why she never told anybody about Lumiya or the Sith in the brief time she had in Destiney's Way? Well... Vergere advocates for the enemies to be left alive, always, if you recall. She wants to save the Vong. Why not save the Sith too? She believes everybody can be saved with the right skill and triggers. She knows outing anybody is an instant death mark, so she does not out anybody but rather work with them. Then again she said Jacen is a gardener that can remove the weeds but that comment is not the excuse for free killing later EU turned it into.

A true gardner though recognises that there are no weeds at all. Every plant has a purpose in life, every life is good for something and exists because of a specific reason. Thus a true gardener does not remove weesd but re-place them where they are useful and do not harm others. And that my folks, is Vergeres lesson in a nutshell if you pair her and Jacen's "no dark side" with the gardener analogue.

Vergere realizes conflict demands sacrifices and until one can be free to take care of even the weeds one needs to cut oneself free, which Jacen did when fighting some Vong in traitor to later never have to kill again, if he could avoid it.