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Lucas felt betrayed by Disney

Discussion in 'Lucasfilm Ltd. In-Depth Discussion' started by KING_KENOBI, Sep 24, 2019.

  1. christophero30

    christophero30 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    May 18, 2017
    You thought they were all going to die? wow. As I've said numerous times one or two would have been okay but all three just seems silly. They are not 90.
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2020
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  2. Fredrik Vallestrand

    Fredrik Vallestrand Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Jan 15, 2018
    Characters die, young and old. and yes the old guard must complete their acts and fade away even if that includes them die.
     
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  3. KyleKartan

    KyleKartan Jedi Grand Master star 3

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    Feb 4, 2004
    I was sure that by the end of Ep IX all of them were gone. What else should they do? Let them live to kill them off in some other material like Comics or Novels? Having fans demand another movie with the old actors playing their roles. It was totally obvious that they would be killed in those movies. Lucas would have done the same. Were is the sense in having them in those movies and not killing them off? Thats part of the drama, the tension.
     
  4. christophero30

    christophero30 Chosen One star 8

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    May 18, 2017
    we're gonna have to agree to disagree.
     
  5. LAJ_FETT

    LAJ_FETT Tech Admin and Collecting/Lucasfilm Ltd Mod star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    May 25, 2002
    I was sure that Leia would die at some point given that Carrie Fisher had passed away. Luke was a bit of a surprise to me though.
     
  6. AEHoward33

    AEHoward33 Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 11, 2019
    Why not? Why is that a bad thing? Why did all three of them had to appear in the Sequel Trilogy in the first place?
     
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  7. Fredrik Vallestrand

    Fredrik Vallestrand Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Jan 15, 2018
    movies overides some silly book and comic.
     
  8. KyleKartan

    KyleKartan Jedi Grand Master star 3

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    Feb 4, 2004
    Because Fans demanded them to be in the Sequels since 1983 and the ****storm would have been TLJ-like if they wouldnt have been in them?! Also it would have been very confusing for mainstream audiences to not feature those characters in movies set after Ep VI. It always leaves a bitter taste for the audience when there is some explaination in a movie why a certain character isnt there. Its like "yeah we couldnt get them so here is some reason why they arent there at the moment."

    And yes: I prefer the way they went off in the canon to having them gone in some comic or novel. We were introduced to the Big 3 on screen and I prefer them saying goodbye on screen. I remember the Legends EU with its novels and comics NEVER daring to do what the ST did. The Legacy comic series then was set over 100 years of the OT and Luke appeared as Force Ghost there but we never learned HOW he died. Its way more satisfying for me the way its now.
     
  9. christophero30

    christophero30 Chosen One star 8

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    May 18, 2017
    Why do all 3 have to die premature deaths at all though? I mean one or two sure, but all 3?
     
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  10. Fredrik Vallestrand

    Fredrik Vallestrand Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Jan 15, 2018
    Cause there are no moives after 9 and by then for all we know the actors would have passed on.
     
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  11. christophero30

    christophero30 Chosen One star 8

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    May 18, 2017
    that's not really a good reason.
     
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  12. Fredrik Vallestrand

    Fredrik Vallestrand Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Jan 15, 2018
    It's good enough, as i would hate read any of the OT die in some comic or book as you can't see them die on screen as the actors had passed on and you wound't recast.
     
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  13. KyleKartan

    KyleKartan Jedi Grand Master star 3

    Registered:
    Feb 4, 2004
    Premature deaths after over 40 years of beeing established as characters? I really dont get the problem with those 3 dieing. Iam 100 percent certain Lucas would have made the decicion about them getting killed during the trilogy. Heck I think Hamill confirmed this saying that Lucas would have killed off Luke and Leia in Ep IX except of Luke going in VIII. Its a nobrainer for me to sacrifice them in the Sequels...it always was about passing on the torch. Were would be the drama if they'd just say: "Iam out, its your fight"?

    For me one reason for the Sequels was to establish new characters and heros and have the "old" heros passing the torch and passing on...sacrificing them. They had their trilogy and the Sequels gave them lots of depth and purpose. But eighter with Lucas or Kennedy it was their time to go...
     
  14. godisawesome

    godisawesome Sequel Trilogy Manager star 5 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 14, 2010
    The thing to me is it’s a question of whether or not Lucas or LFL before Carrie’s passing would feel a “total party kill” of the OT3 would actually be necessary for that transition from their era to a wholly ST-cast-based one, particularly regarding Leia. I also, in terms of execution, ponder if Lucas, who should probably be recognized for having better marketing *and* creative instincts than Disney, would have wanted the characters’ exits to be coached in a way that would make them still maximize their IPs between Trilogies. I’d also argue that the Sequel Trilogy gradually came to largely fail at passing the torch due to dubious story decisions, character priorities, and real world tragedy that they didn’t try to mitigate or compensate for when they still could have.

    Luke dying to pass the torch feels like it’s the total no-brainer in terms of traditional storytelling maneuvers: very few grand heroes at the epicenter of their stories die peacefully of old age. Robin Hood dies just “over the hill” in his age due to malicious medical malpractice, King Arthur dies in battle with his grown nephew Mordred but still in fighting shape, Hercules falls to his infidelity and post-Morten scheming by a centaur on his wife, and Odysseus gets stabbed by his unknown son with a stingray’s tail. Han dying also makes sense from the perspective that Ford and Kasdan were open to the idea way back when, the character was positioned as an Obi-Wan-style mentor early on with the commiserate doom attached to that, and there is a functionality to his death that making his son a villain would have as an asset, whether his son kills him or not.

    It’s with Leia where I feel there’s some more debatable impetus behind killing her off. She’s literally already an “elder stateswoman” in function for the story, giving her a functional role that didn’t need to be the final physical confrontations but was still ranked higher than Luke or Han in-universe, and a widow who’s lost her brother and her son has plenty of tragedy to it without necessarily needing to die, but without overshadowing the young heroes.

    Does anyone know if the Duel of the Fates script had Leia dying there after contacting Kylo, or was she still alive there? Because I know that her contacting him and triggering his redemption is one of the few things that is similar between DOTF and TROS.

    Regardless, I think the method of dispatching the characters in the ST wound up being horrible form both a creative standpoint and an investment standpoint - they all died for too repetitive of a story and often for too repetitive of a single and frankly shallow character instead of multiple ones, and in a way that kills off some of their potential between trilogies. Only Han really “passed the torch” in a good way: he “gave the rub” to Rey, Finn, *and* Kylo as a villain (before LFL chickened our and forgot that.) Luke got a pretentious self-focused story that did nothing for Rey in TLJ and almost deliberately avoided any real passing of the torch there; TROS’s scene with him and Rey is in trouble from both ways because it’s tiring to establish a more positive rapport, which some TLJ fans don’t care about and which TLJ critics are going to regard as too little, too late. And because Fisher passed so tragically, they had to try and shoe horn in a tie between her and Rey but were limited in what they could do: we may get a great story showing their connection being forged, but it can’t be on movie screens.

    Ultimately, Rey and Finn only got the torch really passed by Han. Instead, all three OT3 deaths were used ultimately for Kylo in some way, shape or form, and this shallow, loathsome character is the only one really reaping any good benefits from the films featuring the old cast. And because they were all killed off in a series that ultimately wiped out the entire family and featured Palpatine returning... well, it kind of makes them look like failures to at least some extent. And it’ll be hard to watch or care that much about stuff between trilogies for them because of how tragic and yet repetitive their epilogues are.

    The real critical mistake was in not having Luke at least give Rey some real training and bond with her in TLJ. It may have prevented some of the overwrought melodrama Johnson wanted to use to emphasize his pretentious story for Luke, but the exact same message could have easily been delivered while still making sure that Rey exited as Luke’s literary heir and give her a “claim” above Kylo for being Luke’s successor. Not doing it, and mostly for the sake of a strictly Luke-focused story, put way too much pressure and importance on whatever role they could dig out of reshoot material for Leia after Fisher’s passing.

    And yeah, I’d argue that the simple decision to have Kylo be the only Skywalker also wasted the old cast and the new to some extent, because he’s just a bad ending chapter for the Skywalker by his lonesome, but also steals the spotlight from the new guys because he *is* that next chapter. It would have been better if he were just Luke’s bad student and not Han and Leia’s kid, or if Rey were a Skywalker with him. Even one good Skywalker kid we could cheer for would recontextualize the inter-trilogy period to have some positive aspect for the OT3.
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2020
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  15. Jid123Sheeve

    Jid123Sheeve Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 9, 2016
    @godisawesome

    If I remember correctly Leia DOES live I believe and I think that was the idea of the ST to have Leia be the one who live on and help rebuild the future.
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2020
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  16. godisawesome

    godisawesome Sequel Trilogy Manager star 5 Staff Member Manager

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    Dec 14, 2010
    Thank you.

    I remember the similarity in the overall scene, but I didn’t remember them mentioning her dying.
     
  17. Ancient Whills

    Ancient Whills Force Ghost star 6

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    Jun 12, 2011
    I always thought Luke wouldn't survive the ST since he would have been the mentor figure and they don't tend to stick around for very long in the main character's journey but I initially thought it would happen in VII. I always knew Han was going to die because Ford wanted to for decades. Leia was the only one I wasn't sure about, it could have gone either way if Lucas was still in charge.
     
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  18. Vicarious Fan

    Vicarious Fan Jedi Master star 3

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    Jul 1, 2013
    i'm right there with you but I imagine Leia would have lived had Carrie not passed.
     
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  19. godisawesome

    godisawesome Sequel Trilogy Manager star 5 Staff Member Manager

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    Dec 14, 2010
    Yeah. Luke was very predictable because of what he was and who the new trilogy was supposed to be focused on. A good comparison would be that while it’s possibly feasible to have Barry Allen still around and in his prime in a Wally West Flash book, it’s a lot easier to make certain it’s a *Wally West* book if Barry stays dead.

    Han was more expendable because of the type of character Han was and because of Ford’s thinking he could die.

    It’s Leia where things get tricky to predict, because on that context you’re not just talking killing her off, but also a “total party kill” for the 3 main stars of the first ever Star Wars film... and it gets harder to grasp that as being the wisest move from either a creative or economic standpoint.
    I think Williams returning as Lando was meant in part to offset Leia’s death - to ensure that at least *someone* human from the Original Trilogy cast would make it out of the Skywalker Saga alive.

    And this does again line up with how the initial DOTF script seemed to have Leia survive, as it was written before Carrie’s passing.
     
  20. Jid123Sheeve

    Jid123Sheeve Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Jul 9, 2016
    Lando DOES appear in DOTF too...As a businessman of the underworld or some sorta casino...I think...Been a while since I read the script...Don't remember much but I do remember he's pretty beat and doesn't really want to go into the fight.

    I forget if Lando showing up with fleet at the end is also in DOTF or not....I do remember Lando is just way more cynical and tired in that version though even more so then he is in TROS.

    I know there is some fleet that shows up and the battle is on Coruscant but that's it...I forget if Lando is tied to that as well or not.

    Oh and also Han does have a talk with Kylo in DOTF too, but it's also way more dark and cynical and the exact opposite of the feeling that TROS goes for.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2020
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  21. Darthvader1975

    Darthvader1975 Jedi Padawan star 1

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    May 2, 2020
    There's mixed stories that Lucas wanted to do a sequel trilogy. Over the years he had stated that the skywalker story was 6 parts not 9 and he had no real interest in showing luke later on. The story was done after jedi.

    Disney saw the money they could make and once they bought stsrcwars from Lucas they decided to do another trilogy to try and get back the money they spent. I think han was always going to die because Ford had wanted it to happen since jedi. With Lucas gone JJ could grant the request. If you give up the rights to a franchise there's not a lot you can do. He may not have been happy with how the trilogy went but he never really wanted to do it in the first place.
     
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  22. oierem

    oierem Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 18, 2009
    I agree. It's true that Lucas has been contradictory over the years about that, and that for a long time he did say there would be three trilogies. But ever since he started making the PT he's been saying that the story would be over with the six movies, and between 2005-2010 he frequently stated that there was no story whatsoever after Return of the Jedi.

    Actually, it's Lucas who put the ST in motion in 2011-2012. However I do believe that he didn't have any actual interest in making the new movies, and that he only developed the story because he wanted to sell the company.

    Those who are upsed with Disney "betraying" Lucas would feel much better if they believed what Lucas said between 1999-2010 (that there is no story after Return of the Jedi). There is no betrayal because there is no story that needs to be told.

    However, the fact that fans wanted to believe that there would be a ST afterall, and the fact that Lucas did claim during the 1980s that he had developed treatments for it, lead to the popular believe that this new ST was going to finally complete the whole story, and that Disney "betrayed" Lucas by not following his story.
     
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  23. Vicarious Fan

    Vicarious Fan Jedi Master star 3

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    Jul 1, 2013
    Yup and lets not forget the big Star Wars project Lucas was working on personally before he sold it was of course Star Wars Detours




    Lucas had no actual interst in doing more Star Wars movies. All that said I think DOTF would have been better then TROS.
     
  24. Darthvader1975

    Darthvader1975 Jedi Padawan star 1

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    May 2, 2020
    I think making the movies took a lot out of Lucas epecially the very first one and therefore delegated the following two to other directors even if by jedi he was kinda there for a lot of the film with Richard marquand. He directed the scene between luke and anakin.

    Yes he did direct the prequels but the backlash was such that he think he lost faith. When he was doing the pt he constantly said he wanted to finish the story with them hence the 6 parts and not 9.

    I'd imagine he did have a draft for a possible other trilogy and why wouldn't he do a rough story but I really don't think he wanted to do it and at one point he did say any ST would be a sequel to the main story because that story was done.
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2020
  25. SlashMan

    SlashMan Jedi Master star 4

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    Feb 5, 2012
    I also remember the hard stance of "no movies after Revenge of the Sith" prior to this. And I feel more like making TROS the "final film" was more of a selling point than a conscious narrative decision.

    Actually the timeline seems pretty consistent. Before Return of the Jedi, Lucas was pretty outward about his lofty goals for the series. This was back at a time when the success of A New Hope ensured some form of longevity for the series and the ability to tell stories in trilogies. Then with a lot of negative events compounding by Return of the Jedi, that became the final chapter. Which stood until about 2010. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like the Disney purchase was what prompted new movies to be made; this was not on the table before Disney made their intentions clear. This did prompt George to do the unthinkable and add a plot after Return of the Jedi that didn't exist before. He just wanted to have some control over where it went. Which since TROS violated his "Palpatine doesn't come back" rule, it definitely wouldn't have existed in Lucas' versions.