ST Luke reacts to Hans death corrected quality. Full widescreen

No one laughed at your "joke" regardless so you should have at least tried to be accurate.

This is the main reason why Luke in TLJ does not work for me. It's not because he's sad. Sadness is in line with his character. No, it's because he's being selfish. Selfishness has never been in Luke's character. Yeah, in ANH he says he wanted to go get some power convertors, but does he? No, he stays and cleans the droids. And in TLJ, Luke knows he can help, but he feels sad for himself so he's going to let the galaxy slump back into fascist rule simply because he's more worried about throwing himself a pity party than he is about anybody else.

And honestly, I don't know if showing him feel genuine sorrow for Han's loss would help the situation. Regardless of how Han dying effects him, he still chooses to not do anything about the plight of the galaxy that (we learn later) he had a hand in creating in the first place.

I wish Luke would have just been out of it, mentally and emotionally. I would have rather an older Luke told Rey that he already had to deal with a dark side family member once in his life and he just doesn't have it in him to do it again. He could then have been upbeat about training Rey so that she can do what he feels he is too old to do again and then maybe, just maybe from training her, he gets some of his youthful asperations back again for the finally.

Instead of skype fighting his nephew for a few minutes in order to give people time to leave through the backdoor of a cave, which he fails to tell any of them is his plan, and which is also blocked by a bunch of rocks.

 

I’ll be here all week

 

Is that like ‘Defence Bingo’???

The disappointing thing is those moments e.g. Luke being told about Han, seeing Leia’s old holo message, *could* have been used to galvanise him back into action. He still could have been ‘grumpy’, he still could have carried the guilt... but him being compelled by those moments to leap into action (instead of later with the Yoda slap) would have given Luke much more function in the film/story, and he certainly wouldn’t have been as drearily passive.

Like I say elsewhere, the real problem is Luke’s characterisation. The first action of Luke is to toss his lightsabre away, the 2nd is to pretend as if Rey doesn’t exist. When he finds out about Han, his actions are not that of a man whose had the ‘absolute wind kicked out of him’. He behaves in the same manor. What would you do if your best friend had been murdered? What would you do if your best friend was married to your sister, who is also at risk of being murdered? Luke doesn’t even put in a phone call to Leia. What happened? Are you ok? Do you need anything? Etc. Etc. We know Luke *should* be upset, but his actions run contrary to being upset... which is why his characterisation (IMO) completely misses the mark (no pun intended).

 

Agreed. If you're trying to compel Luke to come back, you'd could almost do a story where Luke agree to helping with just one small thing, say like Rey needs help getting back to the Resistance, or there's a big gnarly beast who attacks Rey and Luke needs to save her. That way once Luke does that, he reluctantly begins to see that he can help after all. That he doesn't need to be concerned with the big picture legend, and just doing small good deeds is enough. And through this mini-adventure, Luke is reminded of his old days, his first journey, his old friends, and then realizes he can help out.

The movie went with helping Rey get 3 lessons. Lessons that don't really help Luke realize he's needed. If anything it all blows up in his face, further proving that he should just stay out of it, because he's going to mess everything up. He doesn't even finish what he promises to do, and his 3rd lesson was basically trolling Rey, teaching her not to get involved unless blah blah blah, all while her actual friends are dying.

And then it relies on Yoda bonking Luke on the head and spelling it out for him, and presto chango, Luke is back, or at least willing to really help out.

 

Not blah blah blah, and not trolling either.

It is a great shame that the third lesson was taken out, because I believe that it was the most important of all, as it mirrored Luke's own philosophy and situation. Luke was trying to instil the idea that if involvement is likely to exacerbate an ongoing situation and make it worse, don't get involved. This is exactly what Luke is doing. He also commends Rey for ignoring that and having the instinct to run in and help, saying that this is what the Galaxy needs, which is also a reflection of what he then has to face up to and what he himself does next.

Why that scene was removed when it was kind of pivotal, God only knows.

 

I don't think it misses the mark at all. TLJ doesn't exist in a vacuum. TFA already established that Luke abandoned his family and his friends without so much as a goodbye, much less an explanation of just where he was going, what he was doing, or if he would ever return, years ago.

Luke didn't go into exile and let his nephew run riot throughout the galaxy for decades on a whim. He knew exactly what he was doing, how he was doing it, who he was hurting, the consequences of doing ti - and he did it anyway, because he thought despite all of that, it was the right decision.

The notion that the moment Luke is confronted with the totally foreseeable consequences of his decision that he would immedately change his mind about it and decide to make contact and offer his services and what not is silly - if his mind is so easily changed about something as important as exile, then Luke is actually an idiot who has no actual strong convictions at all:

"Wait, you mean the last Jedi abandoning the galaxy resulted in bad things? Well I never!"

 

It’s probably the most stupid idea in all of Star Wars (IMO)... and from every angle one views it. The idea that Luke wouldn’t want to even see how his sister is doing (let alone help her), given her husband was murdered like what (?) the day before (?), has no basis in the reality of human behaviour. And if one can’t relate to characters, one can’t sympathise/empathise with characters... and if one can’t do that, then any opportunity for drama is compromised/undermined.

 

It didn't bother me, for two reasons - yes, it is a natural human emotion to want to see how your sister is doing if you find out their husband is murdered. However you'd be a lot more reticent to do so if you believed that his murder happoened because of your original failure with her son, who she entrusted to your care. It hits different.

Second - its not like he didn't make contact with Leia. He did. He reached out to her like what, the next day? When you consider yourself responsible for losing your sister's son to the dark side, needing a little time to do the right thing is ok in my book.

 

Who is the arbiter of how somebody should act when they receive such bad news? Some people rage out, some people want revenge, some people collapse in grief, some people carry on their routines in denial etc etc

To my mind though, the scene outside the hut with Rey is a meta one anyway. Rey, the excited young protagonist proclaims "We need Luke Skywalker" as if speaking for the audience, to which Luke replies, also to the audience, and referring to himself in the 3rd person to emphasise it "You don't need Luke Skywalker". He then addresses the audience again "What did you think was going to happen here? Did you think I was going to walk out with a laser sword and face down the entire First Order?"

Note how he says "laser sword", he is being deliberately "casual Star Wars audience friendly" here. "Ah that's right" the casual audience member remembers "he's the guy with the laser sword thing!"

So Rian sets out Luke's pitch straight away. He isn't this great galactic legend that people remember from Return of the Jedi, because he actually never was. Luke's input to the end of the Empire was purely personal, and he barely escaped it with his life. Only for his father stepping in at the end was he not killed by the Emperor.

So the audience's (through Rey's) expectation that he suddenly swoop into action and start chopping the First Order up is unrealistic, and established immediately. Of course he then goes on to find a way to do exactly that which he doesn't believe is possible at the end, and it all works out. All good stuff in my opinion.

 

If Luke feels responsible, then more reason to face into that responsibility and address the damage he has, in part, caused. Instead, Luke acts like a massive A-hole for pretty much all the time Rey’s on the island. He off course eventually comes around, but (IMO) his acceptance of that ‘responsibility’ has little dramatic impact to the story, as it’s too late in proceedings, and has pretty much zero effect on his relationship with Rey... which should have been crucial.
I don’t think there’s anything inherently wrong with the concept of a disillusioned Luke, wondering about his place in the universe... the problem is that it’s not adequately developed over the course of the ST... instead, we go from point A to point Z in about 15 mins of screentime, which (for me) makes Luke’s characterisation appear inconstant and unbelievable.

That Leia is nearly already dead by then, underscores that inconsistent approach. The galaxy is at war, Leia’s in mortal danger, but Luke thinks he can leave it a couple of days and it will be fine? Also, whilst I don’t want to downplay any notion that Luke feels a sense of ‘guilt’, I’m sure he does, there’s nothing in the film that suggests that ‘guilt’ is the reason for his reluctance to help Leia.

 

Human behaviour is the arbiter in terms of what seems ‘real’, ‘believable’... otherwise ‘drama’ as a concept wouldn’t work, because none of us would be moved by the same things. Humans tend to reach out to those they are closest to, when in times of pain, need. Even if Luke doesn’t want to help Leia, he should have the emotional maturity to be cognisant that she may need him more than he needs her... which is why most of us here, I imagine, if we found out something horrible had happened to a brother/sister, would automatically give them a call ASAP to check they were ok?

And I think this is the crux of it. Johnson, IMO, isn’t that interested in the ‘human’ side of what constitutes characters and story. This scene is much more about a directorial mission statement, as to Johnson’s approach to the film, than it is about a scene that reflects human behaviour. Which is why the scenes don’t work to create drama, because that isn’t Johnson’s objective.

 

Opinions are going to vary, but I think that he managed to do both, and is what I find so neat about it. I found that he offered meta-commentary within the drama. Some people will deny and / or dislike that approach for this franchise and prefer a more earnest, immersive experience, but I thought it worked okay.

 

And yet exactly that line of thinking was supposed to be his carte blanche for hiding on a rock, his supposed belief in the right decision. So if the reasoning falls apart that obviously and easily, then he is an idiot anyway. An idiot with strong convictions isn`t any better than an idiot without ones at the end.

 

I think the movie wants Luke to look like he has deeply held convictions, that he's sticking with, even if mistaken ones.

However, I don't think the movie ultimately shows this. If he had, I don't think he would have walked away from everyone. If he had, I don't think he would have 'given up' after his temple burned to the grown. If he had, he wouldn't have created a map to his whereabouts. If he had, he would have burnt down the Jedi Tree and ended the whole thing 6 years ago. If he had he would have read the sacred Jedi books that he supposedly reveres. If he had, he would have passed into the Force a while back to truly end it all. If he had, he would have exiled himself on some other useless rock, instead of the First Damn Jedi Temple.

If these principles (Jedi must end because they contribute to the endless cycle, I can't help cuz I'll make it worse, turns the force off) are a more recent revelation or belief that he's come upon, after time in exile, he's still doesn't appear totally committed to them. And if he only feels that way now, he never would have come to this island in the first place. If feels more like these beliefs are simply a convenience, more than anything else. It's him finding an excuse for his desire not to get involved when he knows he should. Which is why he tells R2, "Hey cheap move" when playing a video of Leia. This guy knows he's wrong. He knows he's not doing the right thing. He knows his convictions are full of crap.

And then, when you realize that he comes full circle back to the Luke we sorta always knew, who wants to help, who realizes he was 'wrong', all came about from having 1 single person - who he never even met - talk to him for a day or so. Yeah, at first Luke is Grumps McGee, but with the slightest arm twisting, he gives Rey two out of three lessons about how to use the Force. That goes against his supposed convictions of not helping. What happened? And after 1-2 days on that island with her, Luke is already using the force again, even if without him trying to do so.

Are these really deeply convictions? They don't seem like it. They don't stand up to any scrutiny. Not audience scrutiny nor in-universe character scrutiny. They seem incredibly flimsy. Rey is able to knock down this Jedi Master Logic in an afternoon. And it took her that long, because she's only on Day 2 of being a Jedi student.

So in the end, these beliefs only held because ... no one ever spoke to him after the temple. That's a story contrivance if there ever was one. One of my major pet peeves in stories is when a drama exists solely because characters won't talk to each other, when normally they would, and always have, and as soon as they do, the entire drama is solved. That's basically what we have here. With some force malarkey.

If he hadn't run off, and put the force on silent mode, immediately, Leia would have talked some sense into him after 3 minutes. Han would have made fun of him. Chewie would have roared and given him a bear hug. R2 would have beeped "you crazy?". 3PO would have given him the odds. Luke would have smiled and said "whew that was a close one, what was i thinking. Thanks guys. Let's so save Ben".

And that's why when Yoda finally is allowed to show up again, he breaks his deeply held convictions a part with 2 lines of dialog. Luke doesn't even argue back against what Yoda is saying. You'd think someone with deeply held convictions would argue back. Even just once. Luke just stutters. But he doesn't, cuz he knows Yoda is right and he's full of it. You'd think if these were deeply held convictions, even wrong ones, would I dunno...stand up to other characters talking to him for more than a minute.

 

So what do you consider six years of hiding out?

Yes, he actually was - remember Death Star 1? Remember Jabba's barge? His father stepped in at the end because Luke made the effort to connect with him and that's what makes the end work. I guess next it's going to be "well Luke didn't teach Rey because he was always a terrible teacher so Leia had to do it." Which begs the question (forgive me Peter Sagal) of why Leia didn't just each her in the first place.

Also, meta has no place in a Star Wars movie, especially as part of a trilogy that seems dedicated to being an arch commentary on Star Wars in the midst of a reboot.

Yeah, I'm in the "dislike" category. I'm sure you're all shocked.

Which is what would have happened, so that's probably why they came up with this whole "Luke disappeared" because a bunch of allegedly pro screenwriters couldn't figure out how to tell a story with Luke in it where he didn't pull focus from their main character. Which means that their writing was deficient, so they came up with this elaborate "let's remake the OT by slavishly copying ANH in movie 1 and then throwing Empire and Jedi in a blender for the next two films."

 

Not as shocked as I am at how the dislike forms such a regular pastime

 

I'd note that Andy Rooney and many others have made a career out of it but I'm betting you have no idea who that is.

This is interesting to me, because I see the continual "it's been three years, why are you still mad about TLJ" every time someone tweets about how awesome TLJ is. Which baffles me - so, I can't talk about something I didn't like after so many days but someone can talk about something they love forever. So....how many days?

 

You can do whatever you like. Just curious to me that people devote so much time to stuff they openly admit to detesting. I mean, I can’t stand Elton John, so I couldn’t see myself in an Elton John fan forum telling the people there how much I hate the duck-costume-wearing buffoon.

 

That's not quite the same thing though. The people who dislike the ST, love 99% of all the rest of SW. If your favorite artist of all time, Elton John, had a life time of great hits, and then one absolute stinker, you might find yourself in a similar boat, talking about that.

Actually, that's not even the case either. Imagine if you love love love Elton John, spend decades talking about Elton John, and his music, and then he quits, and some other guy takes the Elton John name over for him, creates a best hits album but screws it all up really badly ... you might find yourself talking about that for a while.

No one here is NOT a SW fan. I wouldn't expect SW fans to show up here. Just like you don't wander over to Elton John forums to discuss that.

 

Perhaps. Maybe it’s a form of collective catharsis.

As you were.

 

Or it's just what fans do. Talk about the good, the bad, and the ugly. I'm sure if the ST was amazing to those that hated it, they would all still be here just the same. Talking about it.

 

Are we back to the, "If you don't like something then you're not allowed to talk about it." phase?

 

who is that in your avatar?

 

@christophero30

Glenn Howerton as Dennis Reynolds from IT'S ALWAYS SUNNY IN PHILADELPHIA.