ST Luke Skywalker/Mark Hamill Discussion Thread [SEE WARNING ON PAGE 134]

Superbitably.

 

"I was weak. Unwise."

 

This is one of those moments where there's some conflation between what the story says, and what the movie actually telling/showing us. There's a contradiction due to careless writing.

In story, the narrative says that Luke was needed. He had to help Rey. He helped her. He defiantly protected the new Last Jedi, doing exactly what he thought was impossible earlier in the film. He was wrong about his exiled philosophy.

The movie however, due to careless writing, shows us that Luke wasn't really needed. Johnson seems intent on proving this, despite setting up a story where the opposite is the case. I think the audience is desperate for Luke being the hero again, so they make allowances. But Luke never really helped Rey. He never passed on his failures after being told that was his real failing. Instead of being his true self, and letting that inspire the galaxy, or Kylo, he hid behind his Legendary Luke persona. He was a troll to the end. And when he died, er - passed on to the force willingly for no good reason except because RJ wanted an ending - all the characters just shrugged, after spending 6 desperate years trying to find him, and never mentioned him again.

 

Precisely. What the film shows us, for its entire runtime, is far more in tune with cynical hermit Luke's "It's time for the Jedi to end" speeches, and Kylo's "Let the past die. Kill it if you have to" rhetoric, than what it tells us in the final few scenes about all that being wrong-headed and incorrect.

It's like the way 1920s and 1930s Hollywood crime movies showed gangsters living the high life for an hour and forty-five minutes, and then had the law break in and arrest them all in the last fifteen minutes or so. You can tell the filmmakers were required to tack on such rote, perfunctory Band-aid endings to show that "crime never pays", but their hearts were really with the people and thrills and spectacles they'd been following for the vast majority of the film's runtime. That's exactly the vibe I get from TLJ.

 

Nah, I don't get that vibe at all.

 

I'd agree with that... although I think it's more a direct consequence of DLF not knowing what the ST should be about and whom the focus should be on. Invariably it leads to different people wanting different things out of their respective films. And to be honest, when they position Luke as being the Jedi whose father burnt down the Old Jedi Order/Old Republic, and then his nephew burnt down the New Jedi Order/New Republic, it's little wonder that Johnson would write a Luke that was hugely conflicted and feeling a bit **** about everything and everyone. I don't think Johnson did a great job with what he had, but I also don't think its a surprise that they painted themselves into a corner with a story that couldn't end well (unless it was at the very heart of the entire ST).

 

Agree with the larger issue definitely. But ... I was mainly speaking of just TLJ in this instance. RJ is simply careless - perhaps even more careless than JJ - with his storytelling choices. He's trying to say one thing, and the story blatantly says that one thing, but his actual writing and what shows up on screen depicts another story altogether (if one is paying attention).

 

Luke could have remained involved in galactic affairs without passing on what he learned. Staying active and training another Jedi are not mutually inclusive. All he had to do was not teach anyone. Not that hard. Of course, if he does good, that might refute his belief that the Jedi need to die.

TFA renders his plan invalid anyway, as it's clear that Rey is already a Jedi the moment he meets her and is going to be one, whether Luke wants her to be one or not. She doesn't need his help, and this is proven when he refuses to help her and she goes on to be a Jedi anyway. He should have known that there would always be Force sensitives, and that one of them would rediscover and aspire to be a Jedi and go down that path whether he was alive to train them or not. In that sense, the Jedi would never end. They'd always come back.

There's another elephant in the room: Even putting aside Rey, Luke was not the only trained Jedi in the galaxy. Luke had already trained Leia. She could have undone his desire for the Jedi to end at any time. Maybe he should have killed her before disappearing? To finish what his father started.

God, this is so dumb. Maybe he would have known all this if he had bothered to read those Jedi texts, or just thought it through, in the six years he sat on Ahch-To doing nothing.

 

Rey and her innate abilities/skills brings into question the requirement for any training/guidance whatsoever. That's one of the thematic issues the ST creates.

 

The entire trilogy would not have happened had Leia just acted like Leia. As TROS shows us, all she literally needed to do with talk to her son. Hell, talk? Whisper his name softly, just once, and he gets distracted, almost killed, and then saved, and then is a good boy once more.

Given that Leia is a trained force sensitive/Jedi, Leia could have:

Trained Ben herself, instead of sending him to Luke (which according to EU materials is something she regrets - I think)
Whispered Ben's name through the force 6 years ago.
Decided to train a new generation of Jedi instead of waiting for deadbeat Luke to do so
Sent herself to see Kylo instead of sending her non-force sensitive ex husband to do it
Gone to Luke once they had the map, instead of sending Rey - a girl she literally just met 4 hours prior.
Trained Rey herself instead of needing Luke to do so.
Faced Kylo on Crait in order to distract him from the rest of the survivors escaping.
Told Rey about her Palpatine connection before her own son was able to manipulate Rey into believing she was a nobody, and thus would join him on the dark side.
And lastly, probably, helped Rey take on Palpatine. But she decided to become one with the force instead, so that ... I guess ... maybe her son would help instead. Who knows.

The whole trilogy rests on Leia doing jack **** for 6 years and relying on the men in her life to save her, or her son...from her son. A lot of people mention how Luke is totally different, or that Han is back to being his pre-ANH self. But they changed Leia as well. They gave her the title of 'general', to show how fake-progressive they were, but actually took away everything else that made her Leia in the first place.

 

THIS. THIS. THIS.

Especially the general part which makes me see red - they took her princess title away (I guess so she isn't a Disney princess?) and gave her general when she already was one in the OT or did they miss the part where she sends the fighters out on Hoth? Her insignia on her jacket there and in ROTJ? So many articles about how wonderful it is and I want to be ill every time I see one.

All of the above also proven by, as I think I read, they wanted to have Leia have her own Death Star like weapon.

 

This is just a joke idea, since the OT is so jokey, but there's a part in TLJ where Luke mentions that "Han was Han about it". It might have been funny, if for nothing more than a blooper, to have Mark do a Han Solo impression. "Hey pal, don't turn my kid into Darth Vader, alright?"

 

I think the way Leia is used in the ST is one of the biggest issues for me personally. I get (but don't agree) the idea that they wanted to use one of the OT3 in each of the films, but the idea of leaving Leia to last shows how invested they were in that character. And as you correctly state, Leia's characterisation in the ST was at odds with who she was... and for me is as jarring as Luke's... the only difference being that Leia is less relevant to the plot. I don't know if Carrie was physically able to do more (TFA suggests she was), but if she weren't, the ST would have been better served if she'd be written out quite quickly, rather than her being this peripheral and sad character.

 

Yeah, I almost think Leia should have been used in TFA as the reason why the trilogy plot starts. Kind of just like she was in the OT.

Perhaps she's doing some NR diplomatic work, and the FO attacks her ship, and then goes into a coma. (Similar to TLJ but used w purpose) So Han goes searching for Luke because there's no other option. They need the Jedi to return to help fight off the FO. Han can still play mentor to Rey and Finn, but his character isn't reset back to preANH.

Meanwhile Ben Solo, who's been on the dark side for 6 years now, feels ... conflicted. Perhaps being in the coma, Leia becomes closer to the force or ... whatever. Maybe she's able to reach out to him. A voice inside his head. I'm spitballing here on the fly lol. He remembers his past life, his family, and the goodness inside him. And this enrages him, drives him to eliminate it at all cost because he doesn't what happened to Vader, to happen to him.

Movie ends on Ahch-to. As space battle happens in orbit. Leia wakes up, she's super weak/injured. She, Han, Rey and Finn all head down to get Luke. There's a OT3 reunion. Ben shows up as well. There's a fight. Han and Leia die together protecting Rey and Finn. Maybe we see Leia use the force or something. Luke is now the last Jedi, and the last OT3 member around so his importance to the plot is now vital. He's the last member of the former generation. The Yoda. Rey and Finn stay behind to get trained. (And this would mean the Resistance is without the older generation, and has to step up to lead)

I dunno. Still not my preferred story. But maybe could have worked.

 

I think the reality is that we can all spitball better scenarios... and I understand that's easier to do in hindsight... but sadly, what we got with the ST was probably the worst version of events...

 

That's probably what happens when you write the movie while filming. (And have the next director write his movie while you're still filming/writing the first movie)

 

Which is why the movie is dumb. It has the idea of Luke as a hero mocked. Then it has the false image of Luke as a hero portrayed as something inspiring.

But also yes, I think RJ hates heroes. "Dead heroes, no leaders." RJ even said in an interview that true heroism is leadership, which is nonsense.

 

90% of RJ's movie is don't meet your heroes cuz you'll be disappointed. Then sets out to prove it. All while saying the villain isn't that bad, and it's the heroes fault anyways.

Then in second climax, in the final minutes, he goes ... sike ... Luke is finally a hero for hiding his true self and trolling his nephew with a cocky attitude.

Not buying it.

 

It's character growth.

Luke learned to embrace who he was, let go of his past personal guilt. Become the Jedi Master Rey knew he could be. And in that action...he saved the entire Resistance because he knew Kylo could not help himself. He saved the Resistance (and thus the hope for the galaxy) with the most pure Jedi action ever, he saved them through a mastery of the Force that didn't involve having to harm or kill anyone.

It showed a strong arc for Luke in the film. From living in depressed seclusion from the guilt of his nephew's fall and the destruction of his fledgling Jedi Order....to meeting Rey. Discovering hope again and speaking to his old master...to finally embracing being Luke Skywalker the *LEGEND*. The hero.

Oh and @JohnWilliamsSonoma, I have to say you have perhaps the best user name of anyone on this site.

 

Embrace who we was? Hahaha. No.

No seriously. That's hilarious considering he's disguising himself. The very opposite of embracing who he is.

There's no growth here. It's regression, inconsistent and sloppy, careless writing. Yoda literally tells him to pass on his failures and that we don't need to just pass on our successes to be legends, and Luke's - er...RJ's - grand and brilliant answer to this is to:

Have Luke disguise himself, younger and with less gray hair, to look more awesome and what he thinks a legend is supposed to look like, and less like his true failed Ahch-to self, and then make fun of his nephew for a few minutes.​

That's the opposite of character growth. Character growth is what takes place in the OT over three movies. And to insist that only now, in Ep 8, that Luke is finally a hero, finally inspirational, finally a legend to the galaxy, all for confronting his nephew for a few minutes so that his sister and few survivors can escape a cave is ...absurd in the extreme. Luke was a legend whether or not he could live up to it. Because he already did live up to it.

Luke isn't the protagonist. So I'm not sure why the movie thinks it needs to give him some grand arc. Did OWK get an arc in ANH? No. All this does is take away from Rey - the actual protagonist - being developed.

And saved the Resistance? No. The Resistance died because of Holdo and her secret plan. They all died in space or on Crait. 12 people in a cave are not a Resistance. That's barely a birthday party. And if RJ is demanding that the 12 people are the spark, well then that betrays his other notion that the Jedi don't own the light. Guess what the spark could come from anywhere. Probably a better 12 are out there somewhere in the galaxy. And lastly, weirdly, we never see the Resistance ... resist, I think it's time we stop using that work to describe them. All they do in TLJ is run away. That's it. Maybe they go on to create a new Resistance...but in a galaxy of gazillions, it's shocking that some think Luke has saved anything from the FO. Even Rey, who he was told to save, actually doesn't even need his help. She could have gotten away on her own at at time.

 

No, he was already a legend, that’s obviously true when everyone and their mother is looking for him in TFA. That’s why even backwater scavengers like Rey have heard of him and his deeds.

But he failed to live up to that legend when he failed his nephew, lost his students and ditched everyone. TLJ deals directly with that.

The whole point of the film with regards to Luke's arc was that he had become deified, turned into a legend that has stretched beyond reality. And, Luke despised this legend after failing as any normal human being would since he could never hope to live up to his legend. The end of the film is him embracing his own myth to give the galaxy what it craves.

In The Last Jedi, Luke goes from having cutting himself off from the Force to becoming one with the Force, embracing his failures and being the spark of hope for a new generation. There's no stronger arc Luke could have had in one story. And he didn’t BECOME a legend, he GREW his legend further.. A key difference


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But he already lived up to the legendary status in ROTJ.
TLJ has Luke refer to himself as “Luke Skywalker… a legend” sarcastically and with contempt. Like it was never true.
The supposed turnaround at the end was underwhelming… and then he instantly dies? So depressing.

 

Nah, Luke’s exploits became legendary following the Battle of Endor. . Just like they did for Han, Leia, Lando etc.


He wasn’t living up to any legend the galaxy built around him in ROTJ. He lived up to the ideal of a Jedi, he wasn’t some war hero.

And the contempt you r


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