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ST Luke Skywalker/Mark Hamill Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by Pro Scoundrel , Jan 3, 2020.

  1. MaverickJedi85

    MaverickJedi85 Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Dec 16, 2019
    It was meant to happen. That's why many people never wanted the ST to happen, unless Lucas wrote it. And that's why many 77-83 fans just ignored the EU in the '90s. Because it was not the work of Lucas. He's the Tolkien of the SW universe. People can accept controversial ideas (midichlorians) or huge mistakes (Jar Jar, whiny teenagers in love) as long as Lucas is at the helm. JJ was aware of this, and didn't care, but it's RJ the one who took it personally, writing the most divisive SW movie not created by Lucas of all time.
     
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  2. obi-arin-kenobi

    obi-arin-kenobi Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 10, 2005
    Luke does question the Jedi in the OT.
     
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  3. MaverickJedi85

    MaverickJedi85 Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Dec 16, 2019
    That's TFA. TLJ was about hating the Jedi Order and wanting to let it die. I'm only trying to express why I dislike that movie so much.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2020
  4. MaverickJedi85

    MaverickJedi85 Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Dec 16, 2019
    When. He expresses doubts at Yoda's training.
     
  5. Nate787

    Nate787 Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 29, 2016
    That is true! He even defies Yoda and Obi-Wan who had both given up on Anakin and wanted Luke to kill Vader because they thought he was too far gone to be redeemed.
     
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  6. MaverickJedi85

    MaverickJedi85 Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Dec 16, 2019
    That has nothing to do with the Order as a whole.
     
  7. Nate787

    Nate787 Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 29, 2016

    Oh believe me, I think this entire trilogy is an abomination. I'm only trying to express then ONE thing I agree with RJ about. :D
     
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  8. Nate787

    Nate787 Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 29, 2016
    He didn't know anything about the order as a whole. Like I said, unfair comparison.
     
  9. Shadao

    Shadao Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 31, 2017
    I call that an excuse to not do anything. If the Sith were to return, the Jedi must be there to stop them or otherwise the galaxy will be enslaved in tyranny once again. Without the Jedi or its successor, the Light striking back will take hundreds if not thousands of years to combat this threat, and those years would be spent relearning everything the Jedi knew. And Luke could have spared all this time if he pass on what he has learned as a Jedi.

    Remember, the Sith do not care about Luke's lessons about how the Force doesn't belong to one group. In fact, they'll gladly encourage Luke to spread this misinformation to get rid of an obstacle. Evil flourishes when the good do nothing.
     
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  10. someoneinpassing

    someoneinpassing Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 25, 2019
    I think - for me at least - a big part of my problem with TLJ is that it's not just anyone we're talking about here. It's Luke Skywalker. Luke (bleeped profanity) Skywalker. One of the most iconic heroes in film history. Someone we've seen struggle, fail, and ultimately prevail over the course of 3 classic movies. I mean, in R1 (which I really liked, by the way), you see factions in the Rebellion do all sorts of questionable things inconsistent with the "virtue" and character of the Rebellion. And I think it did a good job of painting the moral complexity of humans. But if you're going to do that with Luke Skywalker, your burden of proof is a lot higher. And I just don't think TLJ met that burden, especially after what we witnessed from ANH to ROTJ. Not that it couldn't (in theory) be met, just that (imho) TLJ didn't meet it.
     
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  11. Nate787

    Nate787 Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 29, 2016
    Agreed and that is the point where I break off from RJ. I'll give Luke that moment of stepping away in guilt and loss of faith, self pity etc. But Luke would know that doing nothing is worse and would never officially bail after learning his friend died at the hands of his former student and son of said friend.
     
  12. All_Powerful_Jedi

    All_Powerful_Jedi Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 12, 2003
    In TLJ, Luke has to learn about failure again (despite failing repeatedly in the OT) and, according to Rian Johnson, he thinks he’s helping by withdrawing from the fight, that he’s doing what Yoda and Obi-Wan suggested him do in ESB by staying out of the fight and not helping his friends.

    I think you have to completely dismiss Luke’s arc in the OT to come to that conclusion, and it feels like he didn’t watch ROTJ. I know he must have seen the OT, but it’s like he reverts Luke’s arc because he wants to tell that story and doesn’t really stay true to where Luke wound up.

    I don’t care if you minimally use Luke in the ST. He could be Yoda/Obi-Wan and I’d have been totally fine with that. But, RJ had to create a convoluted arc for Luke that just didn’t track for me.


    Also, after Carrie Fisher’s death, they really should have re-assessed whether killing Luke off was a good idea. They were really stubborn about one of the few things they actually planned with the ST (Han dies in 7, Luke dies in 8, Leia dies in 9 was definitely a plan) when they should have adjusted. The plot to TLJ doesn’t change significantly whether Luke lives or dies. He can learn his lesson and play a bigger role in 9 as Rey’s mentor.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2020
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  13. ImpKnight

    ImpKnight Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jun 16, 2008
    I wish that all the people that love Luke's projection would, for the rest of time, have the scene magically replaced by a scene of Luke just sitting on his rock with a look of concentration. No cutting away to any shot that has projection-Luke in it. Cut to inside the cave, then back to Luke on his rock. Just him sitting there.

    Because that's what Luke did.

    Before he died.
     
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  14. obi-arin-kenobi

    obi-arin-kenobi Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 10, 2005
    Mostly in Return of The Jedi. I have always felt that at the end of that film, Lukes encompasses a new mindset on the force, and in hindsight exhibits traits which Qui Gon and Anakin displayed, those of which were forbidden by the Jedi Order.

    All hes doing is telling Rey what occured, and it is the truth. It is also meant to be taken from Reys perspective, that this is Luke teaching her.

    This film gets misinterpreted just like the midichlorians do.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2020
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  15. Ender_and_Bean

    Ender_and_Bean Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    VIII revisited many of Luke’s best known traits and strengths as weaknesses because he saw Luke Skywalker and the Jedi Order as his enemy and became more like the man who raised him before he embraced the Jedi... Uncle Owen.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Luke wins in ROTJ by pulling back from the dark side AND seeing the cycle between both opposing factions and what both the prequel Jedi and Sith Lord want of him and choosing neither. He chooses to embrace his knowledge and not to attack, throwing away the saber.


    VIII is all about taking what worked for him before in ROTJ — increased awareness of where his presence could negatively impact others, ability to pull himself back from the abyss of the dark side, throwing aside the saber and refusing to fight and not doing what others expected of him — and showing all of those previous moments that were positive earlier and in many cases lead to some of his greatest victories of the past... not winning the day this time and instead combining to negative consequence for the situation at hand now.



    VIII revisits those some concepts by design to see where in a different scenario they could lead him astray and into problems and it’s built on the foundation of Luke seeing himself as the biggest enemy of all and him not wanting to become like Darth Vader.



    If you approach EVERYTHING in VIII from the mindset of Luke not wanting to become like Darth Vader, and that all of these choices he’s made are reminiscent of ROTJ moments taken too far then it all tracks better and the through line between the two time periods we’re seeing him in connect better with his personality becoming less like Vader and his hunger for power and more like his Uncle Owen and his desire to live off the land for the rest of his days. He even comes to physically resemble and talk more like the gruff Uncle Owen on Ahch-To. Which is probably why the novelization of the film opens with Luke imagining what might have been. When he was young he idolized the idea of who his biological father was as a hero and after all he’s endured he comes to respect the simpler life the man who raised him once lived. Becoming Vader was Luke’s biggest fear and fear leads powerful force users astray.



    These same beats are revisited again in different ways following a dark side moment reminiscent of Jedi when he last felt that dark side power that corrupted his father. It’s everything that worked for him before taken to extremes because it moved beyond the hypothetical of him not wanting to become like his father and instead waking up to the consequences of a Jedi massacre reminiscent of his father and feeling like Vader. Inspired in part by Vader and him and carried out using skills he himself taught.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2020
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  16. MaverickJedi85

    MaverickJedi85 Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Dec 16, 2019
    Yay! Uncle Owen, the kind of man that will save us all from galactic tyranny and destruction!

    But don't get me wrong, I agree with your post, and that's exactly why I think RJ deconstructed Luke and placed him somewhere before ANH. Backwards non-development, story arc ruined.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2020
  17. PendragonM

    PendragonM Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 7, 2018
    What heroic arc? He barely got into the Falcon then was murdered for nothing. Let's not forget that JJ is the one who made him into a miserable, lost soul for no good reason - seriously, tell me what is accomplished by doing that with Han? What is accomplished with splitting up Han and Leia except her guilting him into getting killed? The moment I knew the ST was done? Han can't take a map to Luke to Leia.

    JJ and smart should never be used in the same sentence unless that sentence is "JJ is not smart" because he wasn't smart enough to avoid such nonsense, he piled it on. He's the one who split up Luke, Han and Leia, he's the one who destroyed the Jedi, he's the one who destroyed the New Republic, he's the one who didn't give Luke kids and only gave one awful child to Han and Leia.

    I don't know about that. I'm sure he enjoyed Leia telling him he'd done nothing since the Death Star. I wish he'd turned around and said you and your brother would have been dead on Hoth except for me but sure, take it out on me. Let me molder in Corellian Hell while you and Junior go off to Force Heaven. Blame me for Kylo turning into pure slime.

    Sorry, I just get tired of Han's arc being elevated over Luke's. Both were garbage, IMO.
     
  18. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    To be fair "Luke gets married" was one of the things Lucas insisted made the Legendsverse different from the way he would have done things.

    While one can have kids without getting married, I can't see Lucas taking that approach. So in that respect JJ not giving Luke kids is a very Lucas sort of thing to do.
     
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  19. Darth Buzz

    Darth Buzz Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 25, 2018
  20. Ender_and_Bean

    Ender_and_Bean Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
  21. someoneinpassing

    someoneinpassing Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 25, 2019
    And a certain tauntaun might've had a longer, better life and a less ignominious end ... :)
     
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  22. Jedsithor

    Jedsithor Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 1, 2005
    This right here illustrates what's wrong with Johnson's approach to Luke, the Jedi and frankly, the ST as a whole.

    What Luke actually says about the Jedi in TLJ isn't really wrong. The Jedi didn't foresee Sidious, they were arrogant and corrupted by their own hubris. I don't know if it was intentional or just me reading into things but it occurs to me that with the midichlorian test, the Jedi took the "quick and easy" path and instead of going out to find potential Jedi, they relied on a system that would increase their numbers far more quickly but ultimately blinded them to the existence of the Chosen One until Anakin had already formed attachments and had begun to develop his possessive nature.

    But when you watch the OT in the context of the PT, you see Obi-Wan and Yoda clinging on to this idea that the once the Dark Side took hold, you could never escape from it. They wanted Luke to kill Vader and ultimately the Emperor just as they tried and failed to do.

    Luke's whole arc though is about proving them wrong. By the end of ROTJ, he shows that it's possible to break free from the Dark Side, he shows that there's a better way than simply killing the Sith out of fear. Obi-Wan and Yoda hid the truth about Vader from Luke both to protect him and out of fear that he would follow Anakin down the same path. In their minds, the only way to win was to kill Vader and the Emperor but their reasoning was based entirely on fear and as Yoda once said, fear is the path to the Dark Side. The last Jedi Masters in the galaxy were consumed by fear, whether they realised it or not.

    By showing compassion to Vader, by refusing to kill his father and throwing away his lightsaber, thus overcoming his fear and his anger, Luke became a true Jedi. He became the Jedi that the Jedi of the prequels aspired to be but weren't. He becomes the Jedi that Anakin should have been.

    So for Luke to renounce the Jedi and to fear Ben's bad dreams is absolutely ludicrous. Luke was never a Jedi like the Jedi of old. To paraphrase the now defunct EU, he wasn't the last of the old Jedi, he was the first of the new. He was a true Jedi Knight who had confronted his fear and discovered a new, better path...and then Abrams and Johnson basically ignored that and yes I include Abrams because he's the one who had Luke disappear while his nephew was breaking bad. Johnson just took it a step further and had Luke abandon everything he'd learned out of fear. Luke went from being a truly enlightened Jedi to being more fearful than the Jedi of old ever were.

    The Luke of this trilogy basically went backwards. He's not the guy who threw down his lightsaber in defiance of the most powerful Sith Lord in a thousand years. He's the guy who told Yoda that raising the X-Wing was impossible. That's who Luke is in TLJ. He's the whiny wannabe Jedi from Empire, not the true Jedi Knight from ROTJ.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2020
  23. nilzo antonio

    nilzo antonio Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 31, 2015
    The trouble lies in the fact is that there's no build up to that state of mind of Luke.1- When he left us in 1983 he's was victorious and with all the tools to rebuild both the Republic and Jedi Order.
    2 -Then came TFA and he was announced as the only hope of the Republic and also heleft a map to be found in case of trouble.
    But, there's the "real" third problem: EXECUTION. RJ wasn't competent to shows a depressive Luke but rather he showed a jerk, a big man-baby who did not fit in the story of the character or the lore of SW.
    2017 gave us James Mangold's Logan: in this movie we see a character completely depressed and desilusioned with life; it felt very real and organic. TLJ never was in the same league as portrayal of someone in pain. Wolverine looked like hurt all film long; Luke just looked petty ( Close friends of him died, billions of people died in those blown away planets in TFA and liked nothing happened or didn't bother at all).
    Logan, altough initially tried to distance himself from Laura never seemed to lose touch with his responsability and loyalty to Xavier; he understood the meanings and dangers to be one of the last mutants still living.
    Johnson's Luke looked a moron alienated of .everything. Even if the Jedi were bad, wasn't still his responsability to deal with Kylo Ren ?
    TLJ script wasn't ever connected with TFA, making the entire trilogy without any sense.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2020
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  24. someoneinpassing

    someoneinpassing Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 25, 2019
    I was watching my ESB Blu-Ray tonight, and got to the scene in Cloud City where Luke, hanging upside down, is desperately crying out to Leia to save him. And then I see Leia in the Falcon, and hear her next words: "We have to go back. I know where Luke is."

    And then, with an unexpected and almost visceral disgust, the image of Luke in TLJ pops into my head.

    I try to be as diplomatic as I can about my disappointment with the ST as a whole. I try not to let it impact my viewing of my beloved OT. But boy, it just intrudes in the most unexpected and unwelcome places. Trying not to think about it when viewing the OT is turning out to be a Sisyphean task for me.
     
  25. Thrawn082

    Thrawn082 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 11, 2014
    Because for as much as they claim that they were being "bold and new" 98% of the ST is rehashing stuff that we've already seen before, and seen done better.

    Luke for example was just an even more pitiful version of OT Obi Wan and Yoda, which also misses the point entirely of his OT arc in the process.