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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

ST Luke Skywalker/Mark Hamill Discussion Thread [SEE WARNING ON PAGE 134]

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by Pro Scoundrel , Jan 3, 2020.

  1. godisawesome

    godisawesome Skywalker Saga Undersheriff star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 14, 2010
    I think critics understood Endgame as a zeitgeist pop culture moment bigger than it was as a single movie, so they were evaluating on the standards of paying off on all previous MCU films; I don’t think they were trying to bow before Disney or any nonsense like that, but that they recognized that the context for evaluating Endgame had to encompass more in some ways and less in others - the film simply wasn’t a standalone at all, and it couldn’t be pretended it was such.

    In contrast, I think they evaluated TLJ a bit more traditionally for themselves - they looked at it as a single blockbuster and decided whether or not they liked it.

    And I think TLJ is very much going to be entertaining and fresh if you’re a jaded film critic who wants to watch your preferred niche, and see this competently directed and well acted blockbuster take a shot at pandering to you... even if it’s a very weak and even bad film if put in the context of other stories in the franchise.

    I mean, we all know Hamill did a great job acting in this film, and I think most people can observe the philosophical differences in the film’s “mood” and values from previous Star Wars films... and I think those mood and values clearly align more with the type of niche films that critics love, like the “Sad White Guy Man Pain” story, or the “Deconstruction-Reconstruction Switch” story, or the “Tongue In Cheek Commentary On Pop Culture” story.

    And Luke’s story, with Hamill’s performance as the flagship for that story, is going to make those story tropes and cliches more likely to succeed for someone with the right mindset. And since the film was likely still evaluated as “Just a Blockbuster with some Art elements,” they were more likely to overlook sloppy, illogical, and even trashy plot elements.

    ...I will add that I think demographics played a part in the reception TLJ received as well. Your professional movie critic is more likely to be male, more likely to be white, and especially when you get to older media, well, older. Luke’s story speaks to people like that more than it does to someone who’s less old, less white, and less male.

    (I’d also add that some of the defense comes down to defending the overall artistic merits of the niche critics often like, especially against claims of being pretentious, and that there are land mines dealing with race and sexism on both sides that people want to be on the frightening side of.)
     
  2. Darth_Articulate

    Darth_Articulate Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 1, 2012
    Well, I’m a middle aged white male and I loved the movie, so I guess I fit two and a half the criteria, anyway. But I also love *all* the Skywalker saga movies, though I do think EPS 1 and 2 were badly executed and I could have done without Palpatine in 9. And though I’m not a professional critic, I do have to evaluate dramatic story telling over and over when performing. (though I acknowledge that the difference with creating something is: one’s own (evolving) analysis becomes secondary to one’s intuitive sense of whether or not something “works”,
    mainly because many of the best parts of art, indeed the essential part of art, often does not arise from the conscious mind).
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2020
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  3. PendragonM

    PendragonM Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 7, 2018
    It also didn't hurt that Rian has a following and his wife is also a film critic. So, y'know, it hit all the things that they were looking for. And for some reason, everyone wanted Star Wars burned to the ground, I guess for being popular and influencing films for years.
     
  4. godisawesome

    godisawesome Skywalker Saga Undersheriff star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 14, 2010
    You’re like my buddy, he loves it as well, and especially because he loves Luke’s story, and was only really turned a bit cold by TROS.

    ...I just also don’t think TLJ or any of its supporters were thinking ahead about what was best for Rey and for the franchise, and I do think that, similar to a PT fan having a soft spot and flexibility for some of the PT’s more dire weaknesses because they don’t impede their own enjoyment of the story, TLJ is likewise cushioned from a more critical evaluation because if someone loves Luke’s (or as the most popular alternative, Kylo’s), their going to go soft on the numerous wounds it inflicted on the ongoing story.

    And I’d say that’s the key difference between the issues with the PT and Anakin’s story and the issues with the ST and Luke’s story: the predominantly execution-centered issues of the PT with Anakin did nothing in the long run to impeded the health of the franchise because the core concept and idea was strong enough to carry through that... but the predominantly concept-centered issues of TLJ *did* damage the appeal and potential of the story going forward because the concepts were inherently limiting and, frankly, bland.

    Just in a vacuum, unaffected by anything else, TLJ’s Luke story is not meant to help Rey’s story. It is not meant to do anything major to help sell the ongoing conflict of the ST going forward. It is not meant to supply the kind fo interest and goodwill for Luke related material before or after itself; in fact, I’d argue its impossible to argue there isn’t some kind of inevitable trade-off for the Saga to have Luke’s story end the way TLJ wanted it to. It is not really me at to inspire young people, and I believe that, while it’s an unintentional aspect of the creative process, it is not going to be a timeless, always applicable tale the way the character’s adventures were before.

    It’s the kind of theater work that is performed in a Black Box that the “serious” artists go to see because it’s just not going to pull as many people as the more fun, more powerful, or more substantial stuff the main theater is going to have. It’s more Green Book (unfortunate implications and condescending plot details included) than it is John Wick.

    But sadly, if Luke’s story isn’t your primary interest... it’s going to get worse, because the rest of the film is significantly weaker and in some ways just bad.

    Luke’s story is a niche, limiting “island“ experiment with dubious value for the character and franchise both artistically and financially... surrounded by an ocean of sloppy, condescendingly written juvenile fan fiction defined by a tokenism where genuine diversity was before, white male privilege warping the story into sexist and at times vaguely racist tripe upon which a trashy romance is created, and contradictory, simply illogical and often banal plot twists unfold for the sake of a cheap “swerve.”

    It feels like the ultimate experiment to determine how much a critic or artist will overvalue their preferred tropes, cliches, and archetypes over competent storytelling.
     
  5. dagenspear

    dagenspear Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 9, 2015
    Ya know, I posted an altered version of TROS on reddit and got a complaint where the person accused me of not wanting Luke to be flawed, and I think of simultaneously making Luke look bad by having him essentially be a deadbeat dad (this idea being that he sent Rey and her mom away in fear for their safety, and Luke thought they'd been killed). Something funny is that somehow Luke considering killing his nephew in his sleep and abandoning his friends and family is him being flawed, but somehow him being a deadbeat dad is a bridge too far. So, which is it? Is Luke being flawed okay or is it not?
     
  6. Darth_Articulate

    Darth_Articulate Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 1, 2012
    Did your buddy also lIke Rey’s story as well? Because I definitely did. Though I was intrigued by Luke’s story, I did not see it as upstaging Rey’s and I *did* see Rey’s as taking center stage.

    Your analyses are always well thought out and you obviously dedicate a lot of time and attention to them, but at the end of the day, everyone’s reception of art is unique and though there may be, and in fact are, techniques for analyzing stories (I use them in my own work), they are not universal and explanations of general reception are ultimately just guesses, educated or otherwise.

    I do think it’s a generous gesture in a discussion to try and make sense of a POV you disagree with, but I also think, unless there’s a q & a dialogue, it‘s more truth-preserving to agree to disagree.
     
  7. godisawesome

    godisawesome Skywalker Saga Undersheriff star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 14, 2010
    Luke’s story was always his main investment when it came to TLJ, and the only one he genuinely tried to defend. With Rey, Kylo, and Finn, it’s definitely more of a “defense by association” thing with him - like a lot of people, Finn’s story is an acknowledged weak point, and his feelings on the Rey story are more abstract - not really exciting, but not bothersome to him... until arguments about its implications, skeevier side, and weaknesses are brought up, as they reflect badly on the rest of the film, and this the Luke story.

    Like me, he does like the throne room fight - I’m a critic who doesn’t mind the choreography, though I have to separate my brain from the story to enjoy it.

    As to the “agree to disagree” thing... yeah, that’s kind fo the point I wish to pinpoint - the point where arguments have been laid out enough that it’s clear where interpretations are all that remains.

    I would just also say that if you reach that point, then there can no longer be any question about why people didn’t like it, and assertions of quality have to now be understood as highly subjective and distinct from any kind of real concesus.
     
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  8. Darth_Articulate

    Darth_Articulate Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 1, 2012
    Is there a distinction between “subjective”
    and “consensus”? If everyone in the world feels the same way about a particular work, does that make the judgement any less subjective?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  9. godisawesome

    godisawesome Skywalker Saga Undersheriff star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 14, 2010
    “Subjective” may be the wrong word to use compare to what I want to use “concensus” for, you’re right...

    Perhaps some mix of “personal preference” with an acknowledgement of TLJ being “highly divisive” would be better; a consensus on art is still subjective, but it’s also an accepted and extremely agreed upon measurement that has to be acknowledged when talking about the art. Wizard of Oz, for instance, is a consensus pop-culture landmark and enough of a consensus beloved classic that more negative critiques have to acknowledge a distinction from the concensus.

    I’m just trying to argue that while TLJ is likely to be considered a candidate for best Luke story in some corners, it can never be considered a concensus favorite for that “competition”... while I don’t think I’d be going to far to say that TLJ probably is Finn’s worst film by consensus, and closer to a consensus for a bad film for Rey as well, though less so than in Finn’s case.
     
  10. ewoksimon

    ewoksimon Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 26, 2009
    And now I'm all jammed up.

     
  11. Talos of Atmora

    Talos of Atmora Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 3, 2016
    All TLJ really has as far as Luke is concerned is the best "concept" for a Luke story. Not the actual best Luke story given how half-baked the conclusion to his crisis of faith actually is.
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2020
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  12. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 19, 2020
    "I'm Luke Skywalker and I'm not even here."
     
  13. Darth Droid

    Darth Droid Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Jul 4, 2013
    I think the idea of a jaded Luke Skywalker finding his way back isn't necessarily bad but the way they went about it just didn't work at all. Honestly for it to really work I think we needed to see him start off more as what he was at the end of ROTJ and see how he gets broken by what happens after idk.

    In terms of Endgame, I think ultimately Endgame did a good job servicing the movies that came before it, and it felt like the ending that the MCU was aiming towards. The ST in general doesnt feel that way, and it feels very tacked on to what came before. Endgame did have a lot of fanservice in it, but another major difference I would argue is it just had *better* fanservice than the ST. Captain America using Thor's Hammer or Iron Man saying "I am Iron Man" when he snapped the gauntlet are not just things fans would have wanted to see but they also make sense in the context of the story. Compare that to Luke handing Leia this pair of dice that fans never cared about, or Chewbacca getting a medal which is literally just an internet meme somehow turned canon. It just feels forced and weird. An example of "Endgame" type fan service that I think would have played better would have been bringing back Hayden Christenson to talk to Kylo or Luke. That's just one example but I think part of the core issues behind the new movies are that ultimately the people making them don't seem to really understand what Star Wars fans even want, and maybe Star Wars fans are just a difficult group to get right, but "Endgame" knew EXACTLY what its fans wanted and delivered.

    Another random example: if an Obi-Wan spinoff had been made instead of the Han Solo prequel, I think the spinoff movies would be in a much more positive place right now, and I think that movie would have made a lot more money than Solo did. It's the difference between something that a corporation thinks sounds good on paper "Han Solo is one of the most popular characters, lets make a spinoff about him" and something that the audience actually wants to see "Ewan McGregor as Obi-Wan is maybe more popular than Alec Guinness as the character rn, let's do that instead"
     
  14. Django Fett

    Django Fett Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 7, 2012
    Ultimately the characters Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan and Luke are all set up to have a grandstand ending and only Luke fails to have that in my opinion. Had he fought Kylo or Snoke and sacrificed his life conventionally it would've felt more right for me.

    The significance of his death became more important than his actual death, alone on an island seems so sad for character that gave so much for others.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2020
  15. Sadie Erso

    Sadie Erso Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Aug 3, 2020
    Hi!
    Guess what?? I saw Mark Hamill in "The Partridge Family" TV series!!! It was maybe six years before he starred in ANH!!! It was really weird to see him.
    I was like, "What? Is that... Luke Skywalker???" o_O
    The episode was called "Old Scrapmouth" if you wanna look it up... It was definitely weird... especially when he was acting kind of... goofy. He played a teen so...:cool:
     
  16. dagenspear

    dagenspear Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 9, 2015
    I think me and my mom were watch something like that and saw him some weeks, maybe months back. lol
     
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  17. godisawesome

    godisawesome Skywalker Saga Undersheriff star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 14, 2010
    Seeing any classic actor in an early role can always be surreal.

    There was an episode of Maverick where Clint Eastwood played a charming but ultimately cowardly villain of the week. Weird.
     
  18. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 19, 2020
    Luke being jaded and having to be coaxed back into the fight by the new. younger characters would have worked in TFA before everything got bad again. Having Luke choose to stay on the island in TLJ after he found out the Empire was back, Han was killed, and Leia was in danger is where the problem lies. RJ took the character arc of Luke that was planned in the Arndt script for VII and just plopped in into VIII and it didn't work because the situation had changed.
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2020
  19. christophero30

    christophero30 Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    May 18, 2017
    The Partridge Family movie. Adam Driver as Danny. Harrison Ford as Rueben.
     
  20. Jamtia1

    Jamtia1 Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    May 27, 2019
    And Luke shutting himself off from the force is the reason he didn't do anything...ughhhhhhhhhhhh
     
  21. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 19, 2020
    Rey flat out tells Luke what is happening and he still chooses to stay on that island. He literally never leaves. He dies on that island.
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2020
  22. Django Fett

    Django Fett Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 7, 2012
    If it wasn't for Star Wars I'd probably not watched many Alec Guinness classic films, even the rubbish ones like Barnicle Bill, ironic considering how he whined on about the franchise for years.

    And there we have the biggest travesty and needless character change in motion picture history, proving the writer/director failed to appreciate what went before in the OT. Luke evolves from a geeky youth with a big heart and always willing to help anyone into pessimistic, self isolating miser who though he blames himself, takes it out on everyone around him.
     
  23. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 19, 2020
    WRITTEN & DIRECTED BY RIAN JOHNSON
     
  24. GDGJ

    GDGJ Jedi Master star 1

    Registered:
    Aug 29, 2016
    Don’t forget an incredibly dumb bully.
     
  25. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 19, 2020
    Alec Guinness or Luke Skywalker?