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Saga Luke's Childhood - A Tactical Error ?

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by PadawanGussin, Aug 19, 2018.

  1. PadawanGussin

    PadawanGussin Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Sep 6, 2017
    This straddles the PT and OT eras so I am posting here..

    Why didn't Obi Wan simply keep luke as his ward on Tatooine and begin his training as a very young child?

    Both the pre Disney and new cannon Disney storyline has Obi Wan wait until Luke is "old enough" to start his training but turned away by Oeen on numerous occasions.

    Yet we also see in the PT that even a nine year old child is too old and has too many attachments to become a Padawan. This was re enforced by Yoda in ESB when he first revels himself to Luke. While Yoda was certainly testing Luke and almost certainly would have trained him no matter what , he was concerned about Luke being older.

    So why did Obi Wan wait at all ? Find a secluded spot and start Lukes Jedi training ASAP.

    This has always bugged me a bit...

    .
     
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  2. ThisIsMe1138

    ThisIsMe1138 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 26, 2018
    These are just some ideas:

    -Maybe Obi-Wan wanted Yoda to train Luke, or at least needed some time after Anakin
    -Maybe he felt Luke needed to grow up with parent figures
    -Obi-Wan doesn't know when he first arrives how to survive on Tatooine, while Owen and Beru do AND Obi-Wan is wanted by the Empire; Luke is much safer with Owen and Beru
    -It is also likely that Obi-Wan planned on beginning Luke's training when he was younger (most Jedi were taken to the temple 6 months - 3 years after birth, I think) but Owen wouldn't let him. It is quite obvious that Owen hates/is afraid of Ben

    I also think about this all the time, these are the answers I have come up with ;)
     
  3. CT-867-5309

    CT-867-5309 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2011
    It's possible that training Luke would allow Vader and the Emperor to sense his presence. In ESB it is revealed that the Emperor has sensed Luke's presence and calls him a new threat. If this is the case, Obi-Wan would need to wait until it was time for Luke to join the fight before beginning his training.

    Personally I chalk it up as a harmless bit of discontinuity between the OT and PT.
     
  4. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 4

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    Nov 10, 2011
    As for why Ben didn't just take care of Luke himself, I think it was as simple as not wanting Luke to have a miserable childhood. By necessity Ben has to live a life of seclusion with minimal human contact, and that wouldn't be fair to Luke. Growing up on the farm Luke got to have a relatively normal life with parents and friends and hobbies, even if he did come to resent his situation eventually. I think Ben hoped he would be able to play some role in Luke's upbringing, but obviously that didn't work out because of Owen.
     
  5. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 8, 2015
    I wouldn't be that certain. Although Luke was recovering from the Tusken's blow he immediately recognized Ben as a familiar face, I'd like to believe that Kenobi was around Luke at every public opportunity and when Owen wasn't around.

    I also believe after ROTS the surviving Jedi were well advised to overthink their training methods, so maybe Kenobi felt that Luke should have a mundane life first to develop social and empathic skills.

    For all I know Yoda's remarks could have been reverse psychology, designed to encourage Luke to deliver his best.
     
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  6. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 4

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    Nov 10, 2011
    It really, really doesn't sound like Ben is a guy whom Luke sees on a constant basis. It sounds like he's someone whom Luke knows casually and runs into from time to time when he's out exploring. Luke thinks of him as "a strange old hermit who lives out beyond the Dune Sea," not as Uncle Ben.

    I see no evidence for this. Jedi raised in the temple show no evidence of being particularly deficient in any of these areas. They're shown to be raised by a caring mentor who obviously has a good rapport with children. They're shown to form healthy friendships both with each other and with civilians. The Jedi had an almost flawless track record for at least a thousand years.

    They send Luke to the Larses because they need people they can trust to keep him safe and who will be able to raise him in a nurturing, balanced environment. Since Luke is family to the Larses, they fit the bill. Ben won't be able to provide what the Larses can, because he has to live as a hermit in an inhospitable wasteland far from any civilization. The Lars homestead is actually more similar to a Jedi Temple environment than Ben's hut would be. The Jedi Temple wasn't a deprived place to live, nor was it lonely.

    I see no reason not to take Yoda's reluctance at face value. It makes the story more dramatic to think that he had genuine doubts about Luke and almost didn't train him. We know from TESB itself and from ROTJ that Yoda had another option.
     
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  7. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 8, 2015
    That's Luke's uncle talking.

    Luke:
    I thought he might have meant old Ben. Do you know what he's talking about? Well, I wonder if he's related to Ben.
     
  8. Sarge

    Sarge Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 4, 1998
    It could be as simple as, Ben was waiting for the Force to direct him to begin Luke's training.
     
  9. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011

    LUKE
    Well, I don't know anyone named Obi-
    Wan, but old Ben lives out beyond
    the dune sea. He's kind of a strange
    old hermit.
     
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  10. FS26

    FS26 Jedi Padawan star 1

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    Jul 8, 2018
    I think there are several factors to Obi-Wan, Yoda, and Bail's decision:

    1) They didn't have any specific ideas or plans of how to proceed after the fall of the Republic. Both Obi-Wan and Yoda basically decide to to sit down and wait for "a new hope" to emerge.
    2) They decided to give the children a relatively safe and normal upringing. It is safer for both Luke and Leia to be not directly connected to the Jedi, but still within reach should something change.
    3) Obi-Wan just had his friend and only Padawan turn to the Dark Side and help wipeout the Jedi - I'm not sure he'd consider himself able to train another apprentice.
    4) Luke and Leia might be Anakin's children, but that doesn't mean they would be force sensitive.
    5) Obi-Wan and Yoda both were about to dedicate themselves to Qui-Gon's training
     
  11. PadawanGussin

    PadawanGussin Jedi Knight star 2

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    Sep 6, 2017
    Yoda was able to evade Palp by hiding in a place with a strong Darkside nexus to cancel out his own presence in the Force.

    Obi Wan could take care to not use his Force abilities and run silent so to speak.

    If Luke had managed to tap into the Force in a larger way than his piloting skills and perhaps a few other minor ways he would have stood out like a sore thumb on a sparsely populated planet with no other confirmed Force sensitive Beings ( other than Obi Wan of course)

    Vader himself had a serious aversion to his planet of birth but Palp and the inquisitors could have been drawn there by any use of the Force, especially with the lack of discipline that would go along with no training.

    SPOILERS AHEAD !

    And of course the new Thrawn Alliance novel now shows Palp able to sense Force sensitive beings over very large distance and the new Vader comics describe how even an infant can send out ripples in the Force that other Force users can zero in on.

    I have to think on this for a while....
     
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  12. theraphos

    theraphos Jedi Knight star 2

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    May 20, 2016
    Others have pointed out that the Jedi Order is not portrayed as deficient in these areas, outside of fans' headcanon about the bad, dumb, wrong old Jedi and widespread misunderstandings about the concept of non-attachment which are passed around and repeated until they are assumed to be official. Additionally, IIRC the official new canon explanation in From A Certain Point of View is that Obi-Wan had every intention of teaching Luke from a more traditional age (though perhaps not in the actual use of his powers, because of all the canon about how easily Force Sensitives can be detected if they're careless), but Owen violently ran him off in terror of Luke taking after his father - and because the Jedi are not kidnappers and Obi-Wan had his own emotional trauma to deal with from his last student, he didn't argue, thinking that maybe Owen would cool down later and they could work this out peacefully. Obi-Wan also spends some of his last moments of mortal life thinking "okay, maybe waiting so long to start training him because Owen was still mad was kind of stupid in hindsight."

    Also strongly seconding this. The Temple would have been full of teachers, caretakers, good doctors, and people Luke's own age; Obi-Wan's poverty hut in the middle of nowhere surrounded by wild animals and Tuskens can't offer a baby the same quality of care. He may have intended to try to cobble together the best replacement for a Jedi culture upbringing that he could (Luke's relatives provide the better house, better food, the kids in town can be his friends, while Obi-Wan just has to do the best he can with a student who is unavoidably exposed to potential violence and psychological bad influences in the process of giving him a good quality of life) but it's still not the ideal. It's just that there is no Temple and this is all that's available if you want to be sure the kid doesn't die of dysentery before you even get to train him.

    I mean, Anakin is already pretty good living proof of what can happen when a young Force-sensitive internalizes bad behaviors and dark/unhealthy ways of thinking out there in the galaxy and then can't recognize and overcome those things after later being trained and unlocking their full potential. Just having the Force is already dangerous to your psychological well-being (giving in to dark side emotions makes you more likely to use the dark side itself, using the dark side makes your dark side emotions stronger, repeat until you spiral into madness and start cutting up babies). If you go into it with emotional damage and childhood traumas you picked up because at a vulnerable age you watched your best friend get roughed up by a gang in Mos Eisley or whatever...well, that's not helping.

    Luke was basically very lucky.

    From FACPOV again: this is true. Leia was the one Yoda wanted to train from the start, he thought Luke would be rubbish.

    EDIT: Ugh, I'm very tired and I definitely didn't organize my thoughts this post as well as I would have liked. But, whatever. :p Good enough.
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2018
  13. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 8, 2015
    I stand corrected, but it reveals that a) Luke does know where he lives and b) he has an opinion on him (which suggests previous contact/s).

    That wasn't at all what I was hinting. If I may say so George Lucas portrayed one particular deficiency in a sledgehammer style: "If an item does not appear in our records, it does not exist." (Jocasta Nu, Jedi Master Archivist)

    Obi-Wan himself was the witness to such close-minded, elitist attitude of a fellow Jedi, something that contributed to the Order's demise. And I would argue that none of the Jedi ever had to experience the hardship and austerity of a moisture farmer. There are things you can teach, but there are those that need to be experienced. Had Luke grown up with Obi-Wan he might have developped some kind of elitist attitude.
     
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  14. YT-2400

    YT-2400 Jedi Master star 1

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    Sep 3, 2008
    Then how did Leia, who supposedly served in the Senate, slip by his notice?

    It seems to me the plan all along was to bring Luke to Yoda for training. Obi-Wan may have been nothing more than a guardian, watching over Luke to make sure he was not discovered and maybe observe any signs of possible usage of the Force. Luke knew who he was which implies contact to some degree, either out in the dunes or in the one of the smaller cities/ports. Owen may have forbidden contact from Obi-Wan based on the fear that Obi-Wan's continued presence would draw unwanted attention and maybe provide the young boy with some sembalance of normal life.

    So it could be that Obi-Wan was merely waiting for Luke to come of age to make his own decisions. Even before Leia's plea for help, Luke was considering attending the Imperial Academy or at least to get off-world. Free of Owen's rules, Obi-Wan could've intercepted Luke and informed of the truth (from a certain point of view) and then travel to Dagobah. However, two droids with a Big Ol' Secret got to them first.
     
  15. FS26

    FS26 Jedi Padawan star 1

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    Jul 8, 2018
    Leia never tapped into the Force on the same level as Luke did in ESB, which is when Palpatine managed to detect him as a noteworthy disturbance. During her time as senator (and beyond), Leia never became a larger presence in the Force beyond the usual.

    Making out a particular presence within the larger web of the Force must require a lot of training and focus. So far, it seems like Palpatine spent the majority of his time as Emperor trying to expand his awareness and control of the Cosmic Force. In Thrawn Alliances, he can sense the panic and fear of several children strong in the Force rippling out from Batuu where there hadn't been any such activity before. It is like trying to recognize a specific instrument in an orchester of millions
     
  16. Alexrd

    Alexrd Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    Because Luke had family that could take him. And considering that Obi-Wan is one of the galaxy's most wanted, it would only put Luke in needless risk.
     
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  17. Ancient Whills

    Ancient Whills Force Ghost star 5

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    Jun 12, 2011
    I don't think so. I think it's best if Luke has a more uneventful and boring childhood with his uncle and his aunt, without any knowledge of the Jedi and their abilities rather than endlessly be on the run from imperials and Jedi hunters with Obi-Wan. In the small chance they get caught by them and Obi-Wan is killed, Luke would be completely alone or worst, captured and growing up to become another agent of the Empire.
     
  18. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 4

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    Nov 10, 2011
    I never denied that he did have contacts with him. I'm saying that he's not a major fixture in Luke's life.

    That doesn't make any sense. Obi-Wan was worried about the elitist attitude of the Jedi, so he didn't want Luke to grow up with him and become an elitist? If Obi-Wan is aware of that problem in the first place, then he obviously wouldn't be in danger of passing it on to Luke. This is also ignoring the fact that the elitist Obi-Wan of the prequels is not the humbled Ben of ROTS onwards.
     
  19. jajje

    jajje Jedi Knight star 1

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    Jul 16, 2013
    I'll refrain from a direct quote here as I seem to end up replying The Phantom Calamari again... We're of very different opinions on how the overall Saga is treated by GL in the PT. At least we can agree on that. :)

    The main problem, again, with all these questions about Luke's training and Old Ben's history with Tatooine is that GL had 10 years and 3 new movies to present a plausible explanation. Instead he simply ignored the whole premise of ANH - the lonely farm boy without parents and the wizard who promises to take him along for a great quest in the unknown Galaxy.

    Why is the backstory all of a sudden both complicated and full of inconsistencies?

    Old Ben Kenobi wandering around in Jedi robes and when attacked by some low-level-scum pulls out a light sabre while Stormtroopers stand outside. The Imperial report then comes through about a ship leaving a space port on a distant planet... Not a word about this Jedi who all of a sudden has come out of hiding!!

    I don't see any reason (in-universe) why Obi-Wan just didn't startup a brand new academy bringing in every somewhat-force-sensitive child or youngster and train away like it's ALL about the survival of the Galaxy. It's not like the Empire had the means to destroy an entire planet...

    Tactical error? There wasn't even a strategy involved and those mighty Jedi Masters surviving Order 66 obviously was more interested in saving themselves than restoring peace and order. (Kanan in Rebels apparently an exception in canon).
     
  20. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 4

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    Nov 10, 2011
    Obi-Wan hiding out on Tatooine under his own last name and watching over Luke, who kept his father's last name, has pretty much never made sense. It doesn't matter whether Owen is Obi-Wan's brother or Anakin's brother. It's actually worse if he's Obi-Wan's brother because then the Empire definitely would have been keeping tabs on him just in case Obi-Wan decided to come to him for help. At least with the prequels we now know that Owen is Anakin's brother, and everyone thinks Anakin's child died in the womb, so there'd be no reason for them to ever bother the Larses.

    And who cares if Obi-Wan is wearing Jedi robes? The whole point of Jedi robes is that they look a lot like peasant robes. That part at least makes sense. It's called hiding in plain sight.

    The prequels didn't mess anything up. If anything, they made the story make more sense, as I pointed out above.
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2018
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  21. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 8, 2015
    That's no what I was implying. Obi-Wan is apparently well are of this issue, but is he the right kind of guy to a) raise a child and b) make certain that Luke won't get wrong ideas? And let's not forget what happened to his last pupil...

    Well, as P.C. has already pointed out he's just wearing Tatooine robes. The novelization mentioned "fusion cutters", Solo wasn't surprised at all, so it almost looks as if the patrons perhaps confused Kenobi's lightsaber with a "fusion cutter". When the stormtroopers enter (probably of the local garrison and equally ambitioned like Roman soldiers serving in the Judea Province in the first century...), Kenobi and Luke have vanished, so it's uncertain if they even filed a report. After all, they are within the spaceport part of Mos Eisley and rely that the security posts won't let anybody inside this area who isn't authorized to pass... ;)
     
  22. jajje

    jajje Jedi Knight star 1

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    Jul 16, 2013
    I think the Imperial patrols sent to Tatooine (or stationed there) should care to at least REPORT in to their commanders that a Jedi MIGHT have returned from hiding (in plain sight).

    Edit: I believe it becomes a circular argument, cause I would actually question why all Jedis (regardless of heritage, species etc) dress like "peasants from Tatooine".

    Of course I know GL's choice in regards to the PT-Jedi but that doesn't excuse it within the storyline. Either Obi-Wan is dressed like a Jedi or not. Can't have it both ways.
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2018
  23. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 4

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    Nov 10, 2011
    They don't dress like "peasants from Tatooine." They wear earth-toned robes much like peasants living in hardscrabble environments all across the galaxy must wear. It's a sign of their humility. Buddhist monks, which the Jedi are heavily based on, wear similar sorts of robes.

    [​IMG]

    Obi-Wan's robes are cut slightly differently than the robes of a moisture farmer like Owen in order to give him the look of a monk crossed with a samurai, but that's always been the case, so it's not a problem caused by the prequels. No one's going to look at an old dude wearing a brown cloak and kimono and immediately think "Jedi" unless he were wandering around Coruscant or something.

    Now, how do these explanations not excuse it? The explanation either makes sense or it doesn't.

    e:
    Ben in A New Hope is depicted as the archetypal wise, caring, and compassionate father figure. His role in the story is to contrast against the overbearing, authoritarian, and unempathetic Owen. Uncle Owen is the minor reflection of Darth Vader, and Ben Kenobi is the antithesis of them both. There's no reason to think Ben would have been a bad parent, and to suggest that Owen was in fact a better father figure than Ben would have been is to grossly misread a simple and straightforward narrative to come up with the exact opposite message than what was intended.

    Despite what happened to Vader, Ben certainly doesn't seem to have any qualms about trying again with Luke. He's learned from his mistakes.
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2018
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  24. jajje

    jajje Jedi Knight star 1

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    Jul 16, 2013
    Yet again, my friend, you are referring to knowledge outside of the movies. (And you referred to the clothes as peasant-like and the next poster said Tatooine-robes!) I can also look up or come up with reasonable explanations, but I'm not GL, and I expect him as a filmmaker to give me satisfying answers within the framework of the saga.

    Let me find you the quote from GL where he explains his choice to make the Jedi at the beginning of TPM easily recognizable.

    Back to the topic of training Luke (or other Jedi)... Cause Obi-Wan's little upheaval in the cantina, or his life as an strange old hermit, cause no real attention on the Imperial radar - why didn't he train several Jedi on Tatooine? Just as why did Yoda isolate himself from the rest of the Galaxy, when the Jedi were needed the most in something like a thousand years (or generations).

    Whatever clothes they are wearing (remember Obi-Wan running around the Death Star very much looking like a Jedi...) there are still no explanations in THREE whole prequel-movies how the whole process of becoming a Jedi actually works. It's all seemingly rigid and totally ad-hoc at the same time.

    There was no strategy or even less any tactical choices made by either Obi-Wan or Yoda or any other heroic Jedi.
     
  25. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 4

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    Nov 10, 2011
    Why can't I refer to knowledge outside the movies? I can't speak for you, but I don't live in a cultural vacuum.

    Is the comparison valid or not? Come on, let's have an actual argument instead of playing rhetorical games.

    I'll find it for you:

    What's wrong with retaining the established look for the Jedi? It's the established look for a reason.

    Did you not watch the movie? Obi-Wan's incident in the cantina almost immediately drew stormtroopers there.

    Why would living as a strange old hermit draw Imperial attention? Strange old hermits aren't exactly in short supply.

    What? When Obi-Wan's running around the Death Star, he's concealing himself. It wouldn't matter whether his robes immediately identified him as a Jedi or not--unless he was wearing some sort of Imperial uniform he would have attracted attention regardless. That's why he has to sneak past guards and make sure he isn't seen by anybody. Again, did you not watch the movie?

    And the process for becoming a Jedi isn't at all opaque to anyone except you. It is clearly stated that Force sensitive children born in the Republic are identified early. It is clearly shown that midi-chlorian counts can be obtained from a simple blood sample. This isn't rocket science. Am I being trolled?

    Okay, buddy.