Saga Luke's Childhood - A Tactical Error ?

No it was one lesson and it was maybe five minuets long.
And his training with Yoda was what, a couple of weeks, a month or two at most.
So it takes about a month for Luke so the same would likely be true for Leia as well.

So yes, she is a potential threat given the short amount of training Luke had.

But Anakin was unusually strong with the Force and his children are also implied to be unusually strong.
Far more than some random person that happens to be strong in the Force.
So if Leia gives of a Force signature that is so strong that it can be sensed even without her having ANY training, that is unusual. And could raise Vader's or Palpatine's interest.

The relevance is that IF the republic found Force sensitives through blood tests and IF Palpatine kept this system running. And why wouldn't he, this way he can ID any potential threats or possible recruits very early.
THEN, if so, either Leia has this test done and is in the system. So if Vader's senses that the Force is very strong with her, he could go and look her up.
If Bail took steps to keep her out of the system and Vader finds she is not there, he could get suspicious.

See Iron lord's response.

Anakin's children are given greater importance than other Force sensitives, clearly suggesting that their potential is larger than others.
And Force signature is what I call the signature that those strong in the Force give off and that can be sensed by others.
Ex Vader can sense Obi-Wan on the DS.
But all those are made by trained Force users.
IF Anakin can be sensed even with no training at all, which is your argument, then his Force signature is so strong that it is comparable to trained Force users.
Then, if you argue that Leia can also be sensed despite no training, then that shows that she too is unusually strong.

Again, it took Luke very little actual training to become a serious threat. And he was just as ignorant of the Force at the start of ANH.

Nope, she can't be his daughter.
His wife was a very prominent person on Alderaan, her being pregnant would be known.
And as Bail says in the film that they have been thinking about adopting a baby girl, means that she has been unable to get pregnant. This would very likely be known.
And having Leia show up as a baby without any news of his wife being pregnant means adoption is the only logical alternative.
For him to spinn a vast lie about Leia really being his child and they for no reason at all kept his wife being pregnant as a secret would not hold up to scrutiny and draw unwanted attention.

So Leia is very likely known as adopted.

No, again Leia can't be presented as Bail's child.

Because that is how the films present it.

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His insight, which is also why he was so sure there was good in his father. Obi-Wan did not agree and he certainly had the Force.

Bye.
Blackboard Monitor

 

Not necessarily. It's more than the reflexes that make Qui-gon consider that the Force is strong with him. He even states to Obi-wan that there is something unique about him, but he never specifies what it is.

Even adults are a threat and regardless of being a public figure. The children are just as unaware as the adults. When Vader says, "The children of the Force" it isn't just literally children. It's anyone connected to the Force like that.

Lucas says otherwise.

"Anakin, as Skywalker, as a human being, was going to be extremely powerful, but he ended up losing his arms and a leg and became partly a robot. So a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point, because, as a living form, there’s not that much of him left. So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared, and now he’s maybe 20 percent less than the Emperor. So that isn’t what the Emperor had in mind. He wanted this really super guy, but that got derailed by Obi-Wan. So he finds that, with Luke, he can get a more primo version if he can turn Luke to the dark side."

--George Lucas, “Star Wars: The Last Battle,” Vanity Fair, 2005.

"At this point, Vader’s plan really, now that he knows he’s his son, is to convince him to come with him. Join the dark side and together they’re going to overthrow the Emperor, which is the thematic devices used through the whole movies in terms of the Sith, which is Sith Lords are usually no more than two because if there are three, then two of them will gang up on one to try to become the dominate Sith. Anakin would have been able to do it if he hadn’t been debilitated and now he’s half machine and half man, so he’s lost a lot of the power of the Force, and he’s lost a lot of his ability to be more powerful then the Emperor. But Luke hasn’t. Luke is Vader’s hope. His motives at this point are purely evil. He simply wants to continue on what he was doing before which is get rid of the Emperor and make himself Emperor. He only sees his son as a mechanism for the ambition. His mad lust of power."

--George Lucas, TESB DVD Commentary.

"The Emperor wants Luke to kill Vader so that he will have a new young Jedi. Let's face it Vader is half mechanical and he is not half as good as he could be. He is not nearly as good as he was hoping Anakin would become because Anakin ends up in the suit. He is hoping he gets a new better apprentice in Luke. If he kills his father then he would take his place as an apprentice; which actually there is something that in the next film is how Anakin becomes his apprentice. There are a lot of things repeated in these movies."

--George Lucas, ROTJ DVD Commentary.

"At the center of the movie is a lot of exposition, it's a lot of explaining what has happened, and why things are the way they are. In this particular case, there is a whole issue of Luke's sister, and you know, the fact that they were twins. Which is an element that has to be revealed, which comes in later, in terms of who is the 'other' that was talked about in Empire Strikes Back. And how could that person become as powerful as Luke? Well obviously if they were twins, then if she were trained, then, she has the same abilities as Luke has. That becomes an important issue, especially in terms of resolving all the love triangles."

--George Lucas, ROTJ DVD Commentary.

That's why the Force runs strongly in his family. They all have the same potential. That's why they consider that Luke or Leia might be the Chosen One.

 

IMO -

The "Great disturbance in the Force" that Palp and Vader felt in ESB was the result of the Force shifting back toward the light. As in ROTJ when Obi Wan spoke of a "massive shift in the Force", in ESB the reverse shift was sensed. The length of Lukes training or Leias connection, or lack of connection , to the Force was only a part of this shift, not the cause of the shift.

One thing that I do wonder about is that there did not seem to be a mechanism n place for Leia to begin her training in the event that something happened to Luke. I agree with those who think that Leia's adoption would be a matter of public record and any attempt to pass her of as a biological child would bring unwanted attention. Even a routine blood test would revel that lie.

However -

Luke could easily disappear from an outer planet without bringing any real attention. For the daughter of a prominent opposition senator, who herself was active in the senate , to suddenly disappear would be a major news story. It seems as though Palp had no clue about Leia and was focused solely on Luke so he would have no reason to be concerned if Leia were to be gone. He might even have been happy over Bail's perceived pain at the loss of his child.

To me, this is another point in favor of Yoda and Obi Wan being shell shocked after the fall of the Jedi and the lack of any real future planning.

 

First Paragraph should state ROTS not ROTJ - Sorry

 

Perhaps the only plausible explanation is that Old Ben actually decides, upon R2D2 relaying Leia's message, that it's time for BOTH of the Skywalker-kids to start their training (at the age of 17-18-19-something). What Kenobi actually is trying to tell Luke is that NOW is the time to go to Alderaan and begin the next chapter of his life - together with his sister, except that Kenobi doesn't wanna spoil the secret just yet.

Makes sense.

 

Well the obvious out of universe explanation is that Leia was not the sister when ANH and ESB were made.
One early ESB draft introduces the sistes and says that she is hidden somewhere else in the galaxy and is also being trained to be a Jedi.
This makes sense, hide the children in separate locations and unknown to each other.
And train them both but again at separate locations.

What plans, if any, Yoda and Obi-Wan are up for debate.
Plus Yoda was apparently fine with letting Leia die.
A bit odd to let one of the only two people in the galaxy that can take on Vader and Palpatine.
Even odder is why Yoda sat on his behind for three years after ANH or why he didn't bring Leia to him and start her training.
After ANH, BOTH Luke and Leia are wanted people and the empire is hunting them down.
And since they are in the same place, if the empire finds them, both hopes could die/be captured.

However problem, Leia has been captured and Obi-Wan would have no idea where she would be.
Nor would he have much of a hope to be able to mount a rescue.
So why he choose Luke at this point is because the other hope is captured in an unknown location.
So Leia is off the table as it where.

And her capture could also make Obi-Wan hurry up, one of the only two hopes have been captured and would likely be killed. So now Luke is the only hope left so better get to it.

This could be why Luke is the focus, Obi-Wan started with him as he might have written off Leia since she was captured.
It is a bit odd that he and Yoda maintain this thinking even after Leia was rescued.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

He may not be able to send messages to Leia, the way Ghost Obi-Wan did to Luke. Getting off Dagobah will also be difficult, given that his escape pod was basically converted into his hut and so is no longer flyable.

In From a Certain Point of View, he wants to train Leia, but Obi-Wan insists on him training Luke first (when the time is right).

 

So tell Obi-Wan to tell Luke and have him tell Leia.
Did Yoda want to bring Leia sooner but didn't because Obi-Wan refused?
That sounds odd.

And if they had discussed Leia before, then Obi-Wan needing reminding about her is even more odd.

And why would either of them want to wait?
Luke and Leia are now on the Empire's radar and they are being hunted.
If they are caught or killed, it will mean disaster for Yoda and Obi-Wan.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

I always saw it as "waiting for the right time" because having an eight year old Jedi-in-training on Tatooine would do little good against the Empire. But a Jedi-in-training with the Death Star plans and an X-wing is another thing.

But also: Anakin was ripped away from his mother and his attachments to Tatooine and his mother created many psychological problems for him. Luke had nothing left to stay for - he literally watched his childhood burn to the ground. Therefore the only way to go was forward.
"Will I ever see you again?" vs "There's nothing for me here now"

 

Because I think Obi-wan had a hunch that Luke was more important in dealing with Vader that Leia was. He may be aware that Luke could be Vader's shatterpoint. The means by which Vader will either turn from the dark side, or at least, turn on Palpatine. In which case, Obi-wan favors training Luke first.

 

I wonder if the "tactical error" in Luke's childhood might have been that he was raised by people who were actually NOT related to him. Owen and Anakin were step-brothers. Shmi was Owen's step-mother and Clieg Lars was Anakin's step-father. There was no blood relationship between Owen and Anakin, yet Yoda told Obi-wan and Bail Organa that Owen and Beru were Luke's "family" ("take him to his family"). Owen and Beru accepted Luke, but they never adopted him as their own. This may account for Owen's resentment toward Obi-wan; that Luke was foisted on them.
Luke's true relatives would have been Padme's relatives on Naboo, but they might not have been able to shield Luke from Palpatine, Vader and the Empire.

 

Is this directed at me?

Then I was not talking about the time prior to ANH.
I am talking about the three years between ANH and ESB.
By now both Luke and Leia are adults.
And they are no longer safe as they are both on the Empire's radar and are being hunted by said Empire.
So why wait a further three years and run the risk that Luke and Leia are caught and killed by the Empire?
A big risk esp since they are together and so they could both die at the same time.

It would be like after TPM, the Jedi and Obi-Wan decide to have Anakin wait three years before they start his training. He is still away from Tatooine and his home and so he spends three years just sitting around.
It serves no purpose and will only make the problem of "He is too told" worse.

Bye.
The Guarding Dark

 

Wow! Way to insult everyone who has been adopted, or has a step family.

 

Agreed. SW fans' widespread fixation with worshipping the sacred purity of blood-relatedness has always been super weird, tbh. And yeah, the simultaneous demonization of adoption or other "lesser" forms of family is messed up.

 

As an adoptive child I think Owen and Beru were good step parents. Luke had a home, enough food and was healthy. He had friends and at least a basic education. They were concerned about his future and his getting hurt or killed.

Although the interaction between his step parents and between them and Luke was only briefly seen, Owen and Beru seemed to love each other and Luke.

 

While that poster's post was indeed insulting, there's nothing about the original saga's fascination with bloodlines that in any way impugns or invalidates adoptive relationships. Surely, George Lucas of all people would be the last person in the world to promulgate such a message.

Luke is ultimately tied by blood to his biological father, but he also benefits along the way from a series of adoptive fathers. They are all his fathers in different ways.

Yes, Owen was an authoritarian presence in Luke's life in ANH, but that's true of all fathers to an extent, especially when the child reaches a certain age and begins to want to make decisions for himself. It's clear that Owen truly does care for Luke and feels some guilt for making him stay on the farm.

 

I did say I was talking about the fans, many of whom do display a tendency to engage in those behaviors. I wasn't talking about anyone or anything else.

 

Well, you're actually on to something here, which is kind of the basis of modern attachment theory... Many scholars have been trying and are still trying to study the effects of adoption and how dependent (infants or small) children actually are when it comes to their blood-relatives. Yoda's decision is neither explained by himself or questioned by those involved, it's entirely ad-hoc in that sense.

John Bowlby was a pioneer on the subject of attachment theory and did most of his research on orphans after WW2. I recommend his work for those interested in the scientific and academic background of attachment theory. Contrary to popular belief the biological bond between parents and children is mostly exaggerated - and can be seen as more of a result of social structures.

But then GL on the other hand makes a big point of Luke's involvement in Vader's redemption and with that in mind you might have a point when it comes to GL's message in the OT. Luke has gotten closure on the part of his mother but is still drawn to the mystery of his father and that proves that Owen, despite good intentions and all his efforts, has not entirely become a (satisfactory) replacement as father figure.

 

Children are dependent on needing a family to provide for them as they're growing up. There's no more difference between blood relatives and adopted families. You form bonds with people that come into your life. That's why children who has no biological parents in their lives can grow up just as healthy and whole with adoptive parents, as those who has one or both biological parents in their lives. What matters most is that in both cases, the parents are good and loving people who care for the adopted child. You don't need attachment theory to understand that.

But that's not why Luke is drawn to his father. It isn't because Owen is a poor substitute for a father. What Luke is looking for is emulation of his father as a means of bonding with his memory. Luke is attached to the idea of his father as a navigator, which is why he wants to be a pilot. When he learns that he is a Jedi, he wants to be a Jedi. What Luke ultimately comes to realize is that he doesn't need to be his father, he needs to be his own man and make the choices on his own. Luke must let go of this attachment to Ankain in order to become a Jedi. This is evident when Yoda asks why does he want to become a Jedi and his answer is a poor one, because it is only because Anakin was a Jedi. Not because it was the right thing to do.

It also comes back to Padme's last words, which in a way are "echoing" in his head.

 

I also think that Owen, perhaps inadvertently, had telegraphed his displeasure regarding Anakin to Luke. So of course a curious Luke would want to know the reason for this animosity on Owen's part.

Any forbidden topic is going to tweak a teens interest even more.

 

One could wonder, given the PT, why did Owen hold much anger or resentment towards Anakin?
He barely knew the guy, sure he had been told about him but they met once and didn't have much time together.
Was he mad because he got saddled with Luke?
What did Obi-Wan tell him and Beru?
I doubt very much he told them that Anakin was now evil and the second in command of the Empire because what would be the point and secrecy was very important with Luke.

In ANH, Owen seem to hold more anger towards Obi-Wan than Anakin and it seemed that he blamed the former for the latter leaving Tatooine and getting himself killed.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor.

 

That's what Obi-wan meant about the idealistic crusade. Owen resents Obi-wan because it was his message that prompted Anakin to leave and in turn, resulted in the Clone Wars happening and resulted in both the Republic becoming an Empire and the death of Anakin. And now he finds that he has a nephew who might be a Jedi and could easily be used in a similar manner that Anakin was used.

 

"Well... I guess I'm your stepbrother. I had a feeling you might show up someday."

Owen seems to view Anakin as sort of a prodigal son who was bound to return someday. Now that he'd returned and they'd lost Shmi, he might have expected him to stay with his new family to help them out. Instead Anakin gets a call from an "Obi-Wan Kenobi" right in the middle of Shmi's funeral and immediately leaves to spark a galactic war, never to be seen by the Larses ever again, but leaving an orphaned child for them to take care of.

It isn't hard to see where Owen's feelings might have come from.

 

I don't think that is in any way a reasonable expectation.

1) Anakin's connection is to his mother, not any of them. He does not know them and has no emotional tie to any of them. And his mother is now dead, so his connection to Tatooine is gone.
2) His mother was killed, under quite horrible circumstances, and he was unable to save her life.
Staying there would be a daily and rather painful reminder of his failure.
3) Anakin is a Jedi and has duty and obligations and his friend and mentor is calling for help.
Does Owen think that Anakin is so dishonorable that he would ignore all his duties to stay and live with strangers?
4) About Luke, that depends on what Owen was told. If obi-Wan said that both Padme and Anakin was killed in the war or by the empire, why would Owen blame Anakin for that?

Owen knew who he was certainly and thought that Anakin would turn up to see his mother.
But from that to assume that he would drop everything and come and live with them does not make much sense.

As I said, in ANH Owen seemed to hold resentment towards Obi-Wan and not so much Anakin.
Beru certainly didn't seem to dislike Anakin.

Bye.
Old Stoneface