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Lit Lumiya's Endgame

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Martin Cukic, Jul 5, 2020.

  1. Martin Cukic

    Martin Cukic Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Mar 29, 2020
    I'm confused. Was what happened at the end of LotF what she wanted to happen?
    Turning Jacen into a Sith brought about a Jedi Queen and a delayed Sith Empire?
    Did her plans actually botch things for the Sith?
    Would she have gotten what she wanted if she allowed Jacen to carry on as a Jedi?
     
  2. Ghost

    Ghost Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Oct 13, 2003
    She wanted Jacen to be a Sith Lord, and "rebirth" the Sith and their rule over the galaxy.

    And while she said she didn't have any personal motivation of revenge, she reads better with having it. Since she did get her revenge. She won.

    Don't stress too much with making sense of the post-NJO books. They're best skipped to go to the Legacy comics.
     
  3. Anedon

    Anedon Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 11, 2016
    Lumyia is a plot device, she has no endgame. She just exsists to get Jacen to the darkside.
    Don`t think the authors ever even tought about it.
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2020
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  4. Jid123Sheeve

    Jid123Sheeve Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Jul 9, 2016
    she was the Snoke of her time
     
  5. ColeFardreamer

    ColeFardreamer Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 24, 2013
    Lumiya had a three way plan:

    She wanted revenge on Luke and Mara, so she would twist their starpupil Jacen to the dark side and through Jacen she can get to Ben who was attached to Jacen like with glue. If she turned the family against each other, she gets her revenge and some kills.

    Second is the goal to revive the Sith. She knows she is not the only darksider out there and even if the One Sith keep clear of her, she does know she is setting Jacen up against something or someone. Especially given his visions about the Dark Mantle and all are not to be ignored. Her and his goals align there. Given her hand in preventing more Palpatine returns after Dark Empire, the One Sith would not want her, and she not them. So it is a Sith Civil War in the making! One Sith (if One Canon tied to White Eyes Palpatine, if not Krayt only) initiated a new Rule of One and Lumiya was Rule of Two so we had two Sith philosophies in conflict with each other.

    The third angle is the most complicated that she might not have planned but liked nevertheless. With politics descending into chaos, the Jedi had to step up and put rulers on the throne so to speak or rule themselves. Hapes and the Felpire are Forceuserruled, even if Jaina is only First Lady. Daala was a mess the Jedi helped to create. So Lumiya won anti-Jedi semtiment galaxywide as well as the entire orders corruption by having them to take control (which like turning them into Generals in the Clone Wars was not what they should do), as well as by turning their poster boy dark whose philosophy they had adapted and misunderstood. So they lacked guidance to correct their new view on the Force as well as believing it is his former view that it is tainted and leads to the dark side (which only their misinterpretation does, not Jacens original Vergere philosophy). Therefore, an entire order on the verge of corruption the Jedi had only two choices left: Let the galaxy sink into chaos and save themselves, or save the galaxy and let the order fall into chaos. In the end the order abandoned a philosophy that was only misunderstood but right for an older dogmatic one that was wrong and failed during the Clone Wars.

    Given all these results and goals Lumiya was brilliant but she was not counting on her own survival. Revenge as main goal, she was content to get revenge and let go of her misery of a life. She did not want to stick around and rule for there was no happiness for her left aside revenge. But ruining Luke and Maras life as well as the One Sith plans was all she breathed for.
     
  6. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Mod-Emperor of the EUC, Lit, RPF and SWC star 9 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 15, 2004
    Now this I disagree with. Her scenes in Tempest and Sacrifice gave us a great deal of insight into her mentality at the time.

    Lumiya was the only one who won in Legacy of the Force.

    She died, yes, but she died so that she could wound Luke, so Jacen could break the galaxy, to cause the death of billions, and generally upset the plans of everyone involved.

    She herself said; she wanted to serve the Sith Order - and she did, but wrecking all the progress a unified galaxy had achieved in the time since the Yuuzhan Vong War.

    It's revenge, yes, but it's not interpersonal - it just happens to have a personal element that benefits her.
     
  7. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 8, 2016
    Lumiya seemed to want revenge on Luke and his family. If Jacen failed, then at least she would get that.

    If Jacen was triumphant, then Sith rule was restored.

    Once Jacen became a Sith, Lumiya won regardless of what happened or might have happened afterward.
     
  8. EmperorHorus

    EmperorHorus Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 3, 2016
    If you think Lumiya's involvement is questionable just wait until the next series when the character of psychotic, mass murdering Admiral Daala is magically transformed completely and considered to be a reasonable choice of as Chief of the Galactic Alliance
     
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  9. AusStig

    AusStig Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 3, 2010
    I do love it when a 'good' guy calls her 'honourable'

    even after she
    hired mandos to masacre unarmed slaves, though to be fair the person who called her honourable enabled this hiring.
     
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  10. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Mod-Emperor of the EUC, Lit, RPF and SWC star 9 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 15, 2004
    The issue with that is the fact that we were told Daala was reformed, to a certain extent.

    But she did turn up and take a chunk out of Caedus at a key moment in the war, and she carried on fighting when her personal stake ended.

    Her last crime was in 13 ABY - this is 40 ABY. The Yuuzhan Vong arrive and every villain before save for Sidious, Vader and Iceheart suddenly look like saints comparatively. Thrawn, who was brutal in his own way, was elevated to Anti-Hero status after the Yuuzhan Vong War in the narrative, and the last time we saw Daala narratively - in Planet of Twilight - she helped stop Death Seed. We get told she helped against the Yuuzhan Vong and possibly at Mandalore, and so we do have a positive aspect to her...

    But for most of us, she's still that Bantam era villain who tried to blow up Coruscant - but not to anyone else in the galaxy, or even IU.

    The most we have is the Mon Calamari hatred for her, which is perfectly owned.

    But I read her scene confronting Luke and didn't see a reasoned and actually completely fair argument, and as much as I didn't want to, and she was, yes, pursuing an anti-Jedi program, I don't think anyone can read Legacy of the Force and say that the Jedi were without blame. There was a lot of blame to go around... and the Jedi did make this worse... and Jacen was a Jedi.

    I enjoyed seeing Daala try to be reasonable, and to show that she was reformed, but also willing to pursue dirty tricks to win against the Jedi. The slow and steady descent back to old Daala was delicious fun for me and as much as Fate of the Jedi explained after the fact why Daala was in-charge, I did enjoy the upswing in anti-Jedi sentiment - which was earned, considering the criticisms of even Luke's behaviour in Legacy of the Force - and that the galaxy really needed to understand - and re-learn - that authoritarian rule is bad.

    The Yuuzhan Vong War invalidated the New Republic.

    But Caedus and Daala invalidated the Galactic Empire for a new generation.

    Cool.
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2020
  11. Riv_Shiel

    Riv_Shiel Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Apr 12, 2014
    Manson for president 2020
     
  12. ColeFardreamer

    ColeFardreamer Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 24, 2013
    Marilyn or Charles?
     
  13. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 8, 2016
    Daala is a war criminal. Yes she came out and gave the anti Caedus forces some much needed firepower and what not, but the fact the Jedi and in particularly Han are willing to overlook her heinous actions nearly thirty years prior is disturbing to say the least.
     
  14. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Mod-Emperor of the EUC, Lit, RPF and SWC star 9 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 15, 2004
    I mean.

    Han was tortured by his father-in-law.

    He’s lost Chewbacca since, ditto Mara and Jacen.

    Forgiveness is a central tenet of Star Wars, it just seems jarring to forgive Daala over Jacen... but Jacen is a fresh wound. Daala isn’t, not really.

    The whole point of the end of the second Civil War was for all sides to forgive each other and move on. I mean, Corellia, Fondor, Comnenor and Kashyyyk have a lot more recent axes to grind with the GA than our cast does with Daala and they’re trying to bring things back together.
     
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  15. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 8, 2016
    You mean the writers lost interest in the supposed central conflict of the series and wrapped it up off screen.
     
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  16. Anedon

    Anedon Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 11, 2016
    Well intresingly Luke becomes kind of Charles Manson esque in LotF. Instead of doing his own dirty work he, just like Manson has his fanatical disciples do it instead, he also has developed an insane messiah´s complex by now and thinks that whatever he does its not only justified but good in and of itself. So you basically have this worshipped cult leader who sends his devout followers against anyone he doesn´t like, has a personal grudge against or simply wants to see removed. Also clearly thinks himself above the law, for example in the first FotJ novel he seriously ponders to ask Tenel Ka to use the Hapan military to put pressure on GA politicans he doesn´t like, not to mention setting up his, soon to be, nephew in law as leader of the imperial remant, filling the Jedi council with yes men(and approving of murdering the previous grandmaster as a way to get said position) and clearly plans to set up his son as the next grand master.

    Honestly, compared with that Daala doesn´t come of as that much worse.
     
  17. ColeFardreamer

    ColeFardreamer Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 24, 2013
    And now I am not so sure anymore which Luke Mara killed in The Last Command...
    given right after Luuke went willingly to the Emperor only pretending to be good Luke around Han and Leias visit. When they defeated the Emperor he had to play good Luke again. He set up a Jedi Academy in a Sith Temple, trained an Imperial that would go on to start his own Imperial Shadow Jedi Academy. His actions throughout the EU can easily be seen as Luuke's...

    Funny too that Lumiya only wanted to kill Mara, not Luke. She wanted Luke, knowing she never can have him back. But were he Luuke... she does not want fake-Luke, therefore she would kill fake Luke or try to. Maybe Lumiyas Agenda against Mara was more because she killed her Luke, real Luke... and that is what turned Lumiya against the Emperor too, who worked with Luuke rather than Luke.

    Timothy Zahn's "An Apology" seems even more likely now ;)



    But even without such a brilliant retcon, Luke and his Jedi Order quickly detoriating mirrors how fast the Christians and Church fell post-death of Jesus Christ with holy bloodlines and sang reals being abused rather than sticking to the true christian core teachings. Heroes living long enough to become the villains proved true once more.

    Chosen One doing a good deed => Chosen One's offspring having a messiah complex => Chosen One's holy lineage destined to rule and solve everything as they see it => Lineage abusing power and not letting go of it, not sharing it => Despotic lineage that everyone rises up against => lineage dethroned => new heroes start a new lineage...



    For all her crimes and flaws, Daala can at least part of them reason away as "it was war, and war rarely follows any rules". After the peace treaty (which she did not participate in or hold on to given the Second Imperium terrorist organisation she supported), Daala at least did keep out of the public eye and when public, appeared helping as in the NJO onwards (offpage). I like that her anti-Jedi/Forceuser agenda is a counterpoint to the too unreigned, unchecked "carte blanche" Jedi and their meddling. I also would have loved to see more of Daalas reforms regarding feminism and equality, given she and her career suffered from it and under Tarkin especially.

    The Jedi want to have only the Force as their authority, whose will they cannot clearly percieve or each interprets different, sometimes even mistaking something for the Force's will that is not that. Thus their meddling unchecked is problematic at best and outright arbitrary at worst. Few only manage to reach the level of mediator needed for that communing with the Force to work properly. The rest are Forcetricks throwing supersoldiers that think themselves bigger than they are.
    But likewise, keeping the Jedi under lock as in the Old Republic does not work either. They are no government institution, at best they did their own thing and to appease the government, did missions for them whenever asked. That is remniscient of the Church f.e. or religion that serves an or several important purposes for governments but is not beholden to them. And like a religion/church the Jedi are permeating all governments despite belonging to none, operating across borders and since the beginnings of the Republic are spearheading exploration as well as keeping the galaxy together no matter how splintered it once was or will be again. Operating across borders Jedi were shown in TPM to be beholden to local laws, however fair or unfair those are (see Qui Gon on Tatooine). Jedi are operating within the systems, not against them, using tricks and legal finesse to free slaves etc.. But when turned into generals they are glued to one government and side and recognise no foreign law, doing as they and the Republic pleases. That was their big flaw and change in the PT. The danger all government affiliation for their order risks.

    Affiliation and closer or looser connections to governments aside, should the Jedi have executive powers, or judicative? Should they have neither and merely counsel with final word on if counsel is followed or not falling to locals or someone else? Out of fear of manipulation, Jedi are kept out of legislative decisions but can counsel politicians on matters. Judicative they could judge by calling on the Force for guidance, but that not always worked. Executive they operate for a government, which is risky, unless operating across borders, they are forced to be executive for local laws, if they like them or not. Not pleasant either.

    All in all, they should return to being Monks first, and "A warrior a Jedi is not" as Yoda said. So they shouldn't be that yet continously stories put them up as soldiers for a good cause, as protectors, as putting their skills to use. Should Jedi be a spiritual path to enlightment and more something for the self, even in communion with others on the same path for themselves? Should they entirely refuse to be drawn into politics, wars and even protection of others? Like Akanah and the Fallanassi do and advised Jacen, critizising the Jedi for that? What if they refuse to solve others problems, wars, etc. but focus on working that such would not even come up in the first place, like helping with education, working with children, not ripping them from families for indoctrination. Spreading their wisdom and philosophy rather than hording it only for members. Like Master Djinn Altis did, with the Jedi spirit reaching far and wide, all that wanted to hear it and work on themselves. Not just midichlorian counts determining who can do the superpower mumbojumbo, but everyone, strong or weak in the Force living and sharing the dream and participating.

    That said, the PT Jedi being an exclusive club for highlevel midichloriancount Forceusers is very elitist and power-focussed as an approach, and totally ignores and dismisses the masses that may either find other access to the Force and themselves, or who do not even need or want powers to help.
     
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  18. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Mod-Emperor of the EUC, Lit, RPF and SWC star 9 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 15, 2004
    chuckles in RotJ and TROS

    I mean, it happens quite a bit of the time in Star Wars, in hindsight.

    Though I did enjoy whenever Allston mentioned the Unification Summit and what happened from it.
     
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  19. sidv88

    sidv88 Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 22, 2005
    As much as I like Zahn 's "An Apology" (it neatly explains Chewie's return for my Crucible Canon theory and also One Canon), I don't think an evil Luuke would have destroyed all of Palpatine's healthy clones without learning the tech for himself. The fact that there's no Luke or Luuke at all by Star Wars Legacy would indicate that the post-Thrawn Trilogy Luke was the real deal.
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2020
  20. ColeFardreamer

    ColeFardreamer Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 24, 2013
    Well who says there was no Luke in the Legacy comics? His Force Ghost could be a projection only like Dark Empire Luke could do! Who knows who is minddriving some villains from afar after having reaced full Palpasnoke level of remote control powers... just saying ;)
     
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  21. Jid123Sheeve

    Jid123Sheeve Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Jul 9, 2016
    I mean that's Star Wars for yuh...The great geo-political story no longer matters when the family drama between relatives is resolved...Normally ending in death but still.
     
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  22. AusStig

    AusStig Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 3, 2010
    Yes but Vader was never treated as anything but a bad guy until he saved his son. Daala helped other imperials and then joined a millitary dictator. In LotF she never does anything good, we might assume she did good stuff during the Vong war but we never see it.

    Forgiveness is the central theme of the OT, that and redemption.

    But there is no forgiveness in post-NJO.

    Jacen is not forgiven, but there heroes help Daala take over the galaxy? And they treat this like a good thing "She isn't so bad".

    Since those governments rebelled against the GA for being to Empire-like, I find it highly unlikely they would like the idea of a literal Imperial War criminal running the GA.
    She isn't just some officer, she helped build superweapons using slaves, she also attacked civillian targets at least twice. (In fact she might have a bigger body count that Jacen). She also lead the Empire in a war against the New Republic.

    Again it should have been Niathal running the GA post war, she could just blame Jacen of all the bad stuff and then go and attack Luke and it might have a bit of moral superiority since she ISN'T a massive war criminal.
     
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  23. ColeFardreamer

    ColeFardreamer Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 24, 2013

    Don't get me wrong, i get your point and agree, but look at our earthly politicians. They are criminals, their bodycount as high as Daalas and you do not know or want to know what all they have done or their fingers into. Be it as associates of corporations that dabble in slavery and work conditions that are slavery in all but name, or be it other crimes they hide well. Not just wars and the like like US politicians like to start. Even european ones, german ones, british, france or else have their hands bloody. They just got the money to pay the propaganda to hide it.

    While it is bad to have Daala as chief.. it is not unlikely or uncommon.

    Personally I think Niathal would not have worked in her place. It would have been fun to have someone with closer ties to the Jedi as chief that formerly was their supporter but then abandons them over realizing how they changed. Someone like Mothma, Ackbar or else were they still around who you cannot accuse of being anti Jedi per se but only with good reasons. Peallaon would have worked were he alive, cause he was not pro Jedi also Imperial but he knew from experience and Joruus C'baoth that they can go pretty bad and need to be controled as Thrawn had taught him. But he also knew Lukes Jedi to be fair once and worthy. His turn against them would make a hell lot of sense logically. But all the good choices are already gone or dead dammit.. so hey Daala.
     
  24. Chrissonofpear2

    Chrissonofpear2 Jedi Padawan star 2

    Registered:
    Mar 25, 2020
    Concerning Daala, of course, it STILL feels very odd that say, Senator G'sil was not picked as Chief of State, at the time. Or, if they wanted to lean into the anti Jedi aspect, perhaps Fyor Rodan, or even Chelch Dravid.
    But that's part of the issue when the politicians either get ignored and sidelined, or made out to all be corrupt, or inept, or uncooperative.
     
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  25. AusStig

    AusStig Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 3, 2010
    I don't disagree, but they tend not to kill people in the nation they run. Daala worked, fought for and committed the warcrimes in service of the Empire, the government the NR fought. And it wasn't that long ago, a lot of vets from her wars are still in government and positions of power.

    To me Daala is more Albert Speer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Speer than Reinhard Gehlen. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reinhard_Gehlen

    So while I don't think she would be tried for warcrimes, she should not be RUNNING the government if they made her Head of defence forces it would have been better.

    Well we know Niathal was flexible with her allies, I have no doubt if she saw advantage she would throw the jedi under the bus.

    I mean Peallaon was also an imperial war criminal, so I don't think he should be running the galaxy.