PT Mace was a gray Jedi, more so than Qui-Gon

I understand the arguments behind Qui-Gon Jinn being a Gray Jedi, but the fact is, there is nothing to suggest that he deviates from the light side of the Force, although he is not in strict adherence to the Jedi code.

Mace, on the other hand, seemed much closer to mingling with the dark side. If you think I’m referring to his last stand against Palpatine, you’re correct. He was morally in the right, no doubt, but he fought with much the same anger as Luke had in ROTJ, and even Anakin’s anger against Dooku is comparable to Mace’s attitude towards Lord Sidious.

I know this isn’t the “prequel trilogy” but the novel Dark Disciple takes place a very short time before ROTS, where Mace favors executing Quinlan Vos for falling under Dooku’s influence. Yes, Vos had committed war crimes along with his new “Master”, and yes, a good number of Masters agreed with this notion, but Mace was a large proprietor of it.

The principle of “shatterpoint” lingers very much in the gray area as well. To me, being “gray” has more to do with internal motivations than following the code or not.

There is a case for Dooku being the same way even before his fall. In Legends, his characters was portrayed as Machiavellian throughout his life (see ROTS novel, Legacy of the Jedi, Darth Plagueis). This isn’t canon anymore, but additional food for thought.

Qui-Gon seemed far more loyal to the core Jedi principles and the use of the light side than Dooku even in Dooku’s best days.

 

I don't think arguments Qui-Gon was a "grey" Jedi are at all anything to do with the dark side.

Qui-Gon was less dogmatic than the standard Jedi of his era. More open-minded to adapting and "bending" the Jedi code to serve a greater purpose.
More receptive to a larger cosmic balance, and all being's destinies, and it seems implied the Jedi Order had generally become a little stagnant and less perceptive by comparison.

This is nothing to do with being partially influenced by, or drawing on, the dark side.

I mostly agree about Mace during his final confrontation with Palpatine.
Imo Palpatine angered him, and this influenced his own decision to execute Palpatine.
It was a partially emotion-driven decision, he wasn't being entirely logical or rational, and at his last moments I think he compromised his own philosophy in an attempt to serve the greater good for the galaxy.
Of course this is an intentionally ambiguous and debatable issue, and this is just my opinion.

 

gray jedi don't exist.

 

It's shorthand for

"Jedi who are morally shady, but have not actually fallen to the Dark Side."

 

Say what you will about the Emperor, but at least the planets get blown up on time.

 

Qui-gon was not gray. He was very much black and white. What was different about him was that he started to recognize he didn't need to follow the Code completely, but not to the point of corruption. Qui-gon's acts of defiance prevent him from sitting on the Council, which is mostly when he argues certain points and shows a willingness to do things his way, which still working within the tenants of the Jedi Code.

Mace's actions with Palpatine were the result of Palpatine manipulating him for thirteen years, to the point where he would go as far as he did. That's not gray either. Dooku, on the other hand, had the same viewpoint as Qui-gon at first, but became corrupted by his beliefs to the point that Palpatine could turn him.

 

Yoda confronted Darth Sidious with the intention of killing him. Does that mean Yoda is a gray Jedi too? What about Obi-Wan being sent to Mustafar to kill Anakin. Is he a gray Jedi? How is that any different than with Mace? I mean Mace saw Palpatine kill three other Jedi that were super talented swordsmen. He is supremely dangerous. Kill the Sith Lord and end the war. Bring balance to the Force. In that moment Sidious didn't even have an apprentice, so there was only one Sith to kill.

I think Mace Windu is a by the books Jedi. He knows in that moment that a Sith Lord is too powerful to control the galaxy. If the Jedi don't stop him, the corrupt government never will. The bigger problem is the old ways of the Jedi during the Prequels are regulated and incorporated into the government of the galaxy. So there are checks and balances. Rules and courts of the Republic, when in the old days Jedi could probably just take action. Also Palpatine spins Anakin's head around so much that in the moment right and wrong are just points of view. And Anakin's actions are clouded further by needing Palpatine to save Padme.

(All that said, I'm not sure Mace could have really killed Palpatine. It may have all been a ruse to turn Anakin to the darkside. Palpatine doesn't do even 5% of what we see him throw at Yoda when fighting Mace Windu. It might have been a fixed fight.)

 

Neither Yoda nor Obi-Wan confronted his respective Sith Lord with the intention of killing him while he was defeated and helpless. There's a clear difference between their intentions and Mace's intentions as he tried to strike Sidious down.

 

As much as I dislike Windu, I never really understood all the criticisms against him regarding the final death blow. Yes Sidious appeared out of energy, but what's to say he won't recover enough to wreck havoc some time before the Senate issues his death sentence and carries it out? Windu made the most reasonable decision based on the knowledge he had at the time.

 

Because Palaptine wasn't unarmed (unhanded)

Anyway I believe Palpatine was totally faking anyway. The right thing for Mace to do would be kill Palpatine. I think Palpatine tricked half the people replying on here the same way he did Anakin.

 

it was interesting because Mace was the one who was hardest on Anakin. There was def. tension between the two.

 

Anakin already had problems with Mace which no doubt made it easier for him to defend Palpatine. Had it been Yoda, Qui-Gon, or Obi-Wan holding a sword over the Chancellor, Anakin might have thought twice. Mace set himself up for what happened. Had he taken Anakin with him to confront Palpatine things might have turned out better. Or if Mace hadn't been so untrusting of Anakin.

What's ironic is that everything Mace had concerns about came to pass. Anakin was too old and power to be trained. Palpatine was too dangerous to be left alive.

 

yuppers. not only is Mace hard on Anakin, but he seems to repeatedly single him out publicly. He even says he doesn't trust Anakin. He was right; but Anakin prob. vented most of his frustration at him. Mace kind of treated him like a kid.

 

And then Palpatine creates a situation where the Jedi who is most hard on Anakin appears to have cornered and is about to murder a mentor who is one of the nicest, most helpful, and appreciative people in Anakin's life.

 

It sure is interesting.

I think a lot of Mace's issue with Anakin in RotS come from Palpatine interfering with the Jedi Council and forcing them to put Anakin on the Council. That's why Anakin is not made a master. The Jedi are drawing lines in the sand for Palpatine, but Anakin is the one who feels the effects of this. Palpatine is setting up a trap and all these little details are part of winding it up. So it getting Obi-Wan and Yoda off of Coruscant so Anakin is still alone.

That is an odd way to say something reassuring that is also insulting. I think Mace's first concern is that Anakin will be too emotionally conflicted when dealing with Palpatine. Mace also extremely underestimates Palaptine's power. Having knowing the Chancellor for years, he must think his Force powers have more to do with plotting and manipulation and not being a fierce warrior.

It's interesting that cornered like he is by Mace, Palpatine still protects Anakin by not revealing in front of Windu that Anakin is married and wants to save Padme. He's still playing the role of Anakin's friend and mentor.

The Clone Wars and what happens with Ahsoka give Anakin a lot more reason for wanting to be on the Jedi Council. If he were a master, he could have helped prevent what happened to his Padawan. Also Anakin has what happened with Ahsoka as another reason to dislike Mace Windu. You don't need that to enjoy the movies, but it certainly helps.

 

Correct. Lucas even said as much.

The Jedi Master is winning when Anakin arrives, but Palpatine, as the scene has been rethought, now seizes the occasion to exaggerate his weakness.

--The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith; Page 204.

"You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor," Lucas says. "If Anakin hadn't got all beat up, he could've beat the Emperor."

--George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith; page 204.

"Mace was going to do the right thing by arresting him, but after Palpatine does the lightning, he changes his mind."

--George Lucas, The Making Of ROTS; Page 204.

"Okay, well this sequence always started out with Mace, uh, overpowering Palpatine and then Palpatine using his powers to try to destroy Mace and Mace deflecting his rays with his Lightsaber. It always was that Anakin cut the Lightsaber out of his hand. But this part where he pretends to lose his power and be weak was something that I added later cause this is it moved the point where Anakin turns down to this moment right here and you can see that he’s, now that it's very clear that he’s, he wants him to go on trial so he can pump him for information about how to get these powers."

--George Lucas, ROTS DVD Commentary.

So, it was essentially that Mace was goaded into killing someone who was pretending to be weak and helpless, which comes on the heels of Anakin having done that very thing with Dooku. But with Dooku, Anakin knew that it was wrong and yet he did it anyway. Afterwards, he's bothered by the fact that he did it and states that what he did went against the Jedi Code and was wrong. Yet, here is Mace Windu, who is supposed to be a great Jedi Master who follows the Code, but he's about to break it right now. It makes Mace into a hypocrite for saying, "follow the rules" and yet, here he is about to break the rules. Palpatine knows this, which is why when he senses Anakin coming in after he loses his Lightsaber, he decides to put on the performance of his life in order to save his life.

 

That's right. Palpatine doesn't even have his lightsaber when Anakin shows up. The scene Anakin walks into does not look like what just happened. Anakin doesn't know three other Jedi are dead. He doesn't know how the the room became slightly messed up and the window broken.

I seriously wonder if Palpatine was in any danger what so ever. It appears he was depending completely on Anakin to save him in the moment.

If the speculation for The Rise of Skywalker is true and Palpatine can cheat death, then he was never in any trouble even if they 'killed' him. But in the moment I wonder if he had an out if Anakin didn't step in. Could Palpatine stop a lightsaber with his hand? Turn off a lightsaber? Would he pull out a second lightsaber faster than Mace could swing? Would he use he full power Force lightening? Does he have another Force power we don't know about? Would Palpatine really stick his neck out at all?

I think Mace was in the right to kill him. There is no gray area there. That was right and Jedi thing to do in the moment. Palpatine just twisted the situation around so completely for Anakin, that we the audience watching it are effected and sort of agree with Mace being wrong.

I think we immediately see in the film that Mace was right when Palpatine blasts the Jedi with his most powerful blast of Force Lightening yet. Then after expelling so much energy just hops up sort of refreshed by such powerful display of Force wizardry.

 

Actually, he would know that the other Jedi Masters are dead, since they're not in the room with them. Anakin's not that stupid. He knows that Palpatine fought back and defeated the Jedi Posse. What he sees now is that Palpatine has basically surrendered after the lightning and claims to be too weak to defend himself anymore and Mace is trying to justify his actions as Palpatine is too dangerous to be contained. Lucas lays it out once again.

"You almost come a second too late. You're rushing over to make sure that nothing happens-but your anticipation is that they're going to hurt each other. When the lightning starts things are going from bad to worse from your point of view. And when Mace is going to kill him, you have to act.

Try and increase how uncomfortable you feel as the shot goes on. Try to think back on the Darth Plagueis story-run that through your head. Take it one step further: you realize that by telling the Jedi about Palpatine being a Sith that Padme is going to die. Basically, you just killed her."

--George Lucas To Hayden Christensen, The Making Of ROTS.