Lit MACLUNKY -- The Lit Forum Maclunky Thread, v3

I remember the drugs and the religion but not that sex had any big/notable role

 

There's a whole entire court cult devoted to controlled breeding to produce a Messiah. And there's a whole Fremen drug fueled orgy ritual. Half the intrigue is about who is having sex with and bearing children with who.

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Do you think it does a good job at faithfully portraying Islam or a future evolution of it? Or do you think it's just used more in a mid-20th-century Western civ way of adding something more "exotic"?

There are great things about Dune, but I've always wondering if the religious parts rubbed religious people (particularly Muslim or Zen Buddhist) the wrong way.

@Gamiel it has strict gender roles and castes and human breeding, personally seems too weird/archaic for a realistic futuristic setting for humans from Earth for me, and at least not with current sensibilities with being gender-neutral and increased visibility of transgender and nonbinary folks, but the role of sex and gender is definitely there.

 

There is a lot of sexual references in Heretics of Dune. Especially with the Honored Matres.

 

I dont know if I'd say it does a good jump presenting Islam as such or a future evolution thereof. I have often wondered how versed Herbert was in perennialism, however, and how that informed his ideas for religion and the Orange Catholic Bible's compilation.

Dune can be quite Orientalist in its approach, I think, but overall I think he uses the concepts in a largely respectful way. The biggest fans of Dune I've ever known have been Muslims.

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Last thing I watched that I would even argue would be a space opera that isn't Star Wars is Netflix She-Ra

 

My personal Dune fandom begins and ends with the 1984 movie and, more specifically, its storybook, which I used to own as a kid. I know, I know, I'm a heretic. I tried reading the novel at age 12 or so and failed spectacularly, making it about a quarter of the way in before the sheer density of the text overwhelmed me. (At the same age I'd read Stephen King's It in it's entirety, so I guess that tells you something.) Nowadays I have a passing interest in the Dune mythology and have watched some of the excellent "Quinn's Ideas" videos on the subject, but actually sitting down and reading the things is not something that's on my plate right now, not with Star Wars dropping eight to ten novels a year on me and all the non-fiction research material I have to read, at any rate.

 

I mean as much as it's interesting to see what inspired the things we love Dune inspiring Star Wars. Sometimes it's hard to get into those things because well...they are products of their times or some things did it better.

Like I think Star Wars did a lot of things that it was riffing on better than the things that were riffed

I sometimes think She-Ra did things better then say Avatar The Last Airbender in terms of things it was riffing on.

So it kinda makes sense.

 

Mini fan art dump:

'Leto Atreides II, God Emperor of Dune' by Devon Cady-Lee:

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Bene Gesserit concepts -- 'Form language characters 2' by Simon Dubuc:

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(my fave is the one in the bottom left corner)

Jumping back to SW -- cute Drengir and Keeve Trennis BrickHeadz designs by ScoutTheTrooper:

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The biggest thing about the Dune/Star Wars comparisons I’ve given thought towards...was how Rian Johnson must have read Children of Dune in his depiction of Luke Skywalker. Seems like Star Wars can’t escape Frank Herbert’s influences even when it’s fully cemented itself as it’s own thing.

 

I mean in general the best Star Wars comes when it pulls from other things other then itself otherwise it becomes insular or hollow. Like making a copy of a copy.

Dune, Lord of the Rings, Flash Gordan are probably always influence on Star Wars.

we now just live in a time where Star Wars will influence Star Wars

 

TFA is the one that immediately springs to mind. To its detriment I think.

 

It's mostly the Abrams film with that problems, the others i think have better job.

Even if TFA has the best set of characters.

 

There's definitely a disenchanted Muad'dib vibe to Luke in TLJ. It's also Arthur on Avalon.

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Luke's story is very Arthurian. And that makes Kylo Mordred.

 

This is actually remarkably... spot on. It also fits TROS. I think it's coincidence but there are a few things that are remarkably similar (if I post anything about the Preacher and Alia here it will be a post-Dune spoiler, but you could definitely draw some strange connections).

Rey didn't become a worm though. Or maybe she did and we just didn't see that was her eventual plan on Tatooine, burrowing in the Lars hole.

 

Baron Palpatine...

 

Jumping bodies, etc....

 

I'd had some Pop Cultural Osmosis knowledge of Dune thanks to SF Debris and similar internet videos. I read it recently in preparation for the movie and it was a great read. I was surprised it was written in the 60's, something about it just felt more "modern" to me. Mostly the language, but maybe the best example for this was how it handled that scene between Stilgar and Paul.

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The one were it subverts the traditional "the new leader must fight the old leader to the death" trope. Things like Star Trek and yes even Star Wars were playing this trope straight decades later, but even back then Herbert was pointing out what a tactically stupid move that is.

I may read the sequels at some point, but I've already got a lot books and podcasts I've been meaning to get around to.

Although I enjoyed the story,I would say stay away from the Audible audiobook. It starts out as a reading by a full cast of voice actors (similar to Dooku: Jedi Lost). Then it switches to one narrator reading the whole thing. And THEN it switches back and forth between full cast and only one narrator, sometimes in the middle of a chapter, seemingly at random. The one good thing is that the actor for the Baron sounds like James Earl Jones and speaks with appropriate gravitas and menace. (I have no idea who the VA was though, because on top of all it's other faults this audiobook doesn't say who voiced who in the credits).

 

Lucas was actually the one who came up with the “Luke is bitter and in self-exile” idea for the Sequels, but yeah, probably an influence from Dune there, as well as the things that inspired Dune going all the way back to Greek Mythology and the Old Testament.

 

Can you actually count She-Ra as Space opera?

Maybe it's just me but clinically described secret breading program is not what I would think of as sex when people say "sex, drugs and religion"

 

Well, there’s Baron Harkonnen and his depravity that hangs over the series.

 

Can't comment on the later books but in the first that was not something important for the overall story, so I would not say that that could count as something "Dune is about"

Finally? Did not the 2002 have a multi episode storyark focusing on her? If it was Spikor I could understand the "Finally".

 

Beats me? I would say it probably takes from some of those tropes along with others. But then again everything riffs on everything these days.

Not that I remember? And it still never got resolved.

 

I would say when your major antagonist is largely characterised by his extreme hedonism and predatory aspects, that’s not something to dismiss. It’s not as important as the deconstruction of the Messiah concept, but Herbert’s use of Harkonnen and his hedonist sexual appetites becomes a sort of short-hand for spiritual corruption. At least across the first three novels.