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[Maddy McCann] Parents suspects. Is anyone surprised?

Discussion in 'United Kingdom' started by Mustafar_66, Sep 7, 2007.

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  1. Spike2002

    Spike2002 Former FF-UK RSA and Arena Manager star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Feb 4, 2002
    [hl=black]elbertino, less of the monkey posts in serious threads[/hl].
     
  2. RedGold

    RedGold Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 29, 2004
    In principle, I argee, but no one here has stated that they 'know the parents did it' only they wouldn't be suprised or that they have suspected the parents, perhaps even from the beginning. Also, we have our 'suspicions' based off of the evidence at hand. For some it's the way things were phrased, for other's the parent's actions, etc.

    If you are discounting our opinions becuase they have root in our 'expectations', then that arguement is false because expectations are normally based off of previous experience and/or case study. Since children being murdered/kidnapped/etc isn't an everyday occurance for most we do have to rely on our own personal case study, i.e. Susan Smith and others, or having lost a child momentarly at a carnival, etc. There is always the chance that we are wrong, heck, I would love to be proven wrong because normally I would 'expect' parents not to kill their children.

    I suspect that you also hold strongly to this opinion/expectation and your complaints of our lack of sympathy for the parents, bandwagoning, is becuase you do not want to believe that a parent could do such a thing. You do not want to accept that parents, for whatever reason, can do the unthinkable, and instead of accepting that it does happen, you ignore obvious evidence that bring their story into question, and also ignore the fact that they put the child in danger in the first place by leaving her alone which already begins a pattern of child endangerment which could escalate. In a court of law this would be acceptable in establishing the history of the crime and therefore I believe it is acceptable enough for our little discussion.

    Now, your opinion is valid, I would never deny you having it, but you have little more evidence that the parents didn't do than we have evidence the parents did. Coming in and just telling us that 'we're wrong because we can't prove it' when we're not trying to prove anything but that our own suspicious could be validated is not an arguement but borderline inflammatory. Also, having to resort to childish tatics of "nice try", etc, only furthers this aspect and has nothing to add your case.

    Lastly, in the point above about my assesment of your views, I use my own background in both criminal justice and history to judge your stance in this subject. Your approach I have often seen before, but I will admit that I could be wrong, so gladly request you provide the evidence to prove me wrong.
     
  3. halibut

    halibut Ex-Mod star 8 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Aug 27, 2000
    So then, now they are known to have left their children unattended, plus the fact that they have been both been named as suspects of child-murder, should Social Services step in immediately and take away their 2 other children?
     
  4. malkieD2

    malkieD2 Ex-Manager and RSA star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 7, 2002
    That's an excellent question. I don't have answer, and really don't have much of a meaningful opinion either.
     
  5. halibut

    halibut Ex-Mod star 8 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Aug 27, 2000
    Well, apparently the police and SS are meeting today to discuss the case. I would hope that this issue would be raised in that meeting.

    Also, a report of the inquiry is being handed to the Portuguese public prosecutor.
     
  6. halibut

    halibut Ex-Mod star 8 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Aug 27, 2000
    Oh, and I'd love to add this to my sig :p

    "I really don't have much of a meaningful opinion - malkieD2"

    ;)
     
  7. Darthsmuse

    Darthsmuse Jedi Master star 1

    Registered:
    Nov 27, 2004
    Now they are back in this country perhaps the Police, SS and CPS will take action with regard abandonning a child under 12 years old?
     
  8. RedGold

    RedGold Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 29, 2004
    One of the first things that came to mind was that had Maddy been found only a few hours later, etc, the parents would have been brought up on child endangerment charges almost without question. I was annoyed at the press making the parents out to be the victims when it is Maddy who is the victim here.
     
  9. halibut

    halibut Ex-Mod star 8 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Aug 27, 2000
    If it's as the parents say, then all are victims
     
  10. RedGold

    RedGold Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 29, 2004
    In a way, yes, but it could be argued that because the parents left the child in a vulnerable state then they invited tragedy upon themselves and/or children, and therefore do not deserve the level of sympathy that was leveled on them by the media.

    As for Maddy, it could be argued that she is both a victim of the kidnappers and also a victim of her own parent's reckless actions. For her, I truely greave and pray for.
     
  11. halibut

    halibut Ex-Mod star 8 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Aug 27, 2000
    There is no doubt that leaving the children was a very poor move, and not the best form of parenting. I don't agree that it means they should have "less sympathy" (assuming they are not involved blah blah)

    I've heard a lot of parents say "I've never left my kids alone", but I find that very hard to believe. I've run down to the shop before to get a loaf of bread whilst all the kids are asleep in their beds.

    Then again, there's probably a difference between that and leaving them alone for an evening in a foreign country whilst you go out for a meal.

    My point, though, is I don't believe that ANY parent has not left their kids alone at any time.
     
  12. halibut

    halibut Ex-Mod star 8 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Aug 27, 2000
    According to the news, the blood found in the car has been identified as Maddie's, and was found under the upholstery in the boot [face_plain]
     
  13. elbertino

    elbertino Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jun 2, 2006
    sicko


    [face_monkey]
     
  14. RedGold

    RedGold Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 29, 2004
    The difference between what you did going out for bread and what they did is that you left them in familiar surroundings, in a locked home, with neighbors you know, in surroundings the children would know better than a likely kidnapper, and likely were gone in a fixed amount of time, just as long as it took to get to the local store. If you also have a pet dog, that also brings up the level of security as well.

    The McCanns left the children for an unspecified amount of time to go out and in surroundings unfamiliar to themselves but possibly very familiar to the likely assailant. In these surroundings, a child can hurt themselves simply because there may be items in locations that you would have locked away or up high, such as cleaning supplies, or problem areas such as nails sticking out of something, which you be unaware of in your own home but not at a foreign location. Add that any neighbors wouldn't care about people they don't know or even realize children are next door, and any possible secondary watch dog is out of the question.

    Also, if you wanted to go out for a meal such as the McCann's did, you would get someone to watch them, not leave them alone in your own home, let alone a foreign location with possible questionable neighbors, etc. So this, to me, constitutes endangerment and I think it can be argued in court, especially if the prosecutor could establish a pattern. Has anyone spoken to friends/neighbors/family of the McCanns to see if they have done something like this before?
     
  15. FatBurt

    FatBurt Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 21, 2003

    Very concerning


    SS should have been involved from day dot with the twins after the parents severe lapse of judgement even if it was just for a "talk"

    I also agree with hal re a two minute pop out for a loaf of bread whilst the kids are in cots kipping, at worst they be crying when you get home two minutes later and will be a bit upset they certainly would have been abducted from the familiar home in your familiar street after you've locked the familiar door.
     
  16. LAJ_FETT

    LAJ_FETT Tech Admin and Collecting/Lucasfilm Ltd Mod star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    May 25, 2002
    Also, unless you had been drinking before popping out to the shop (and assuming you didn't stop at the pub for a quick half while out) you were probably pretty sober when you went out and came home. As I understand from the press the McCanns and their friends had been drinking wine with their meal and were probably less than sober while the kids were alone.
     
  17. Emp

    Emp Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 10, 2000
    My point, though, is I don't believe that ANY parent has not left their kids alone at any time.

    But that's the problem...the reason for so much sympathy is BECAUSE a lot of people have done what the McCanns did.

    I must be in a minority group, I have NEVER nor would EVER leave my child home alone at ANY time.
     
  18. halibut

    halibut Ex-Mod star 8 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Aug 27, 2000
    There's a debate whether they had 3 bottles of wine of 14 bottles of wine with their meal (the waiter says 3, the restaurant says 14), but I didn't say that I'd left the kids alone for a short time to compare myself with the McCanns. It was an example of why pretty much any parent has left their child alone at some point. I mentioned it as a retort to all the holier-than-thou people that frequent a lot of forums saying "I have never left my child alone ever" etc

    (And this is not directed at you, Emp. I'm sure there are a fair few parents that have never left their kids alone. But when you go to a forum - such as the BBC ones - where pretty much every post is people saying "I've never left my kids alone even for a second" etc, you tend to think they're not being entirely truthful when you look back over the kids entire lives)
     
  19. Spike2002

    Spike2002 Former FF-UK RSA and Arena Manager star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Feb 4, 2002
    14 bottles of wine shared by nine people is 1 and a half bottles each.

    3 bottles of wine is 1/3rd of a bottle each.

    I'm assuming that the McCann's must have tried to be "responsible parents" and not drunk 1 and a half bottles of wine each when they had kids in the apartment.
     
  20. halibut

    halibut Ex-Mod star 8 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Aug 27, 2000
    1/3 bottle is pretty much one glass. I doubt that each person there had an average of one glass of wine over a whole meal. But I doubt it's as much as 14 bottles either.
     
  21. Spike2002

    Spike2002 Former FF-UK RSA and Arena Manager star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Feb 4, 2002
    That depends I think. My dad is a member of a wine club and he gets huge bottles of wine that take him a while to drink.

    Also may depend on white, red or rose. I've also read that there were two other wine bottles on the table that had gone relatively untouched.
     
  22. halibut

    halibut Ex-Mod star 8 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Aug 27, 2000
    ITN is reporting that the blood found in the boot of that car has been matched to Madeliene's blood.
     
  23. Spike2002

    Spike2002 Former FF-UK RSA and Arena Manager star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Feb 4, 2002
    That's really not good.
     
  24. Emp

    Emp Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 10, 2000
    I must be in a minority group, I have NEVER nor would EVER leave my child home alone at ANY time.

    Sorry Hal, that wasn't a dig at anyone here.

    :(
     
  25. Qui-Ton-Set

    Qui-Ton-Set Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    May 7, 2006
    Emp you are not alone; you can count me in your group.

     
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