Amph "Engage!" - Star Trek: Picard Discussion Thread [Paramount+/CraveTV]

Whataboutisms aren’t a good rationale to excuse crappy storytelling. I don’t see why this show, or any other can’t strive to be of high quality in every area. In fact, they should aim for exactly that given the volume of good competition out there. Also, I seriously doubt all of the sloppy incompetence we’ve seen this season was done as a homage to past Trek. There’s a simpler explanation. These writers just aren’t very good.

 

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Trying to mass murder all organic life in the Galaxy is a crime. Actually slowly murdering a loved one with premeditation is a crime.

The Zhat Vash's motives were of course justified and correct. Obviously no murder wasn't the right way to go about it, but again, you literally justify Agnes's murder of her lover and mentor based on the vision. The Zhat Vash were all subjected to it. It's terrifying and it drives people insane. I can imagine such a thing occuring when one witnesses the extermination of all intelligent life in the Galaxy, and then fears it happening again.

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Trying to murder trillions isn't a little mistake. It's psychotic. It's such a weird thing for the show and you to try and sweep under the rug for the characters.

Agree to disagree. Agnes seems totally fine and never even brings him up. Other people do.

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Garak didn't always feel remorse. Garak has evil tendencies at times and he knew it. Some of his "remorse" was in recognition of the fact that he didn't feel that bad. What makes Garak a good character, which doesn't apply to Soji or Agnes, is that his demented behavior isn't swept under a rug while we all pretend he's just a cheerful cutie pie that was forced to do or almost do something bad once.

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Oh wow, just doubling down on double standards. Being the first one to try and mass murder trillions is automatically evil, but being the second one to do so is cool. Gotcha.

We all decide not to murder every single day. Someone should give us a cookie I guess.

 

While I enjoyed moments from this series, I have to agree on so many levels the logic on this show is just piss poor and it wasn’t the best written.

It copies and pastes too many concepts from other sci-fi/fantasy stories but executes them in a mediocre manner.

Seems like I may be in the minority....

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Not at all a fan of the resolution for Data. While done well aesthetically it gave me no emotion at all since the whole reason for him “dying” narratively is non-existent. How does he have anything less to live for than Picard. Hell he could’ve been alive the whole time given how advanced their technology is. I was thinking that through every single episode. They can create all these androids but they don’t bring him back even though they have recreated all of his memories. Beyond stupid if you ask me. It is clear it was only done because the actor doesn’t want to wear all that make up. They could have had him back and then said he stayed behind with the other androids.

And while I am now really thinking about it as a whole...

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To be honest this show suffers IMO from the need to give all the characters some depressing backstory or endings that take away from any feel good moments. While totally world breaking, that Picard was not actually dead was supposed to be feel good and it was ruined for me with Data’s dumb ending.

 

Regarding the Xbs and Jurati Chabon recently stated that they had shot a scene with them intergating themselves into the android society but could'nt find a place they felt it fitted into the episode (he admits that they were probobly wrong in cutting it though) and he states that Jurati is going to "put herself in the hands of the law" so presumably we'll se that next season.

He also stated that the Zheng He (and her fleet) are the same type of ship as the ibn Majid (the profile from Rios's case does'nt match exactly but that excusably I would think given the design probobly changed during production) - a Curiosity-class Heavy Cruiser - and claims that he does'nt know if the designs were/were'nt influanced by STO.

Anges killed one guy and Soji did'nt kill anyone. Oh was responsable for planning and directing the attack on Mars, which probobly killed millions as collateral damage; she's way worse then Soji or Anges.

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How were their motivies "justified?" It was'nt justified for Anges to murder Maddox (something neither I - nor has the show for that matter - have done) and it was'nt justifed for what the Zhat Vash did. The assumption they were operating under was a false one, and even if it was'nt their approach was wrong as you yourself note.

It's played a role in charterization for literally episode since she comitted the murder and we know for a fact that she feels remorse and regret, but whatever

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Hey, remember that time Garek tried to geoncide the Founders and just ended up getting a few months in jail for "sabotage and assualt" and it was never brought up again. Or that time he helped his father and the Tal Shiar mastermind and carry out a second would-be geoncide that got to the point of planatery bombardment (and also tortured Odo) and it neither of those two actions were ever brought up agian?

I mean, Garek, Tain and the Romulans bombarding the Founders homeworld is agruably worse then what Soji did, since while in either case nobody actually ended up dying Garek actually went through with the whole thing to the end, while Soji turned back before she actually did anything.

And neither I nore the show are sweeping it under the rug; both reconize that what she almost did was the wrong thing, but we also reconize that she ultimatly chose to do the right thing in the end.

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No, that's not what I'm saying and I'm not applying double standerds but rather the same rules for everyone - Soji turned back and did the right thing and Agnes shows remorse, and both have done acts afterwards that have earned them their freedom and the trust of others, and Sutra, so far at least, has'nt and thus doesn't. It's as simple as that.

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We all do? Well I don't. In fact I can't think of any point in my life we're I've considered killing someone - considered doing some very arguably bad things, but not murder.

The point is that Soji was in that situation - she had the power to do the wrong thing and a choice to make between doing that thing and doing the right thing, and she chose to do the right thing. Nobody's saying she should get "a cookie" but she definatly deserves credit for choosing to do the right thing. For you the analysis of her actions seems to stop at "she almost made the wrong choice" and ingore the fact that she did'nt make that choice, while for me it does'nt.

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Data specificly noted that he wanted to die so he could experience mortality, so even if they could bring him back in an android body (they can't as the explianed in the first episode becuse most of Data's positronic net was lost during the transfer to B-4)

It's not a "whataboutism" or an argument that it was done as a "homage," it's just me pointing how if it was'nt a big deal there its not here; TOS and TNG, and even occasionally the other three shows, was plenty guilty of Starfleet just buzzing off at the end of the episode with no garentee that the recently-solved crisis would'nt immedatly implode as soon as they left - hell the E-D actually left in the middle of a crisis once in The Hunted, with absolutly no guarantee that the entire situation would'nt end up turning to bloodshed after they were on (and neither Picard nor anyone else seemed to really give a ****).

And the writers are fine; the occisional and arguably minor sort-of-but-note-quite-plot holes like a ship not staying in orbit or the EMH not being able to turn himself back on after he was turned off don't consitute "bad writing" and, if it does, then no offense but you guys must be viewing the rest of Trek through some seriusly rose-tinted nostalgia googles

 

@K2771991

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I said the motive was justified. The motive of trying to save all intelligent life from extermination is obviously correct and good. This is a (really the only) morally righteous goal. The goal being indisputably correct does not make the means correct, as I said.

Agnes is a murderer. Minimizing it by describing as "killing one guy" is a bad argument.

Soji tried to murder all intelligent life. There is absolutely no rational way to downplay it. That was a purely evil goal, start to finish. Had it not been such a long process to accomplish, she would have succeeded without changing her mind because she really wanted to do it for quite a while and took actions to make it happen.

Garak was bad and did bad things and no one pretended otherwise. And yes, the way you excuse Soji trying to murder everyone by saying all that matters is she changed her mind is trying to sweep it under the rug.

 

But intelligent life was never actually in danger - they were working from a false assumption, so the motive was unjustifed; if you kill a person becuse they think they are going to kill you but they were never actually going to do that then that does'nt make your motive "justified."

Yes, she is. Nobody is disputing or "minimizing" it. But Oh murdered far, far more peaple on a scale well beyond Agnes, and all simply as collatoral damage to trick the Federation into banning robots.

I'm not sweeping anything under the rug. And can we maybe not have you start putting words In my mouth agian and tell me I'm saying things or holding opinions that I don't hold, please? As I've said before (multipule times) it's really annoying.

Soji made a (very) bad choice and *almost* did the wrong thing, so either one can spend the entire show hung up on a (terrible) crime she almost (but ultimatly did'nt) commit or reconize what happens and watch as the charecter works to better herself and make up for her mistake.

 

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The reapers exist and left a beacon so they could be called back to exterminate all intelligent life. This was a rational fear because the beacon showed them it had happened before. It's totally false to say their fear wasn't real. They believed it (which is the most important thing when it comes to motive) and it was real because the reapers are real, ergo their motive was 100% righteous and correct.

And anyway, I'm fine viewing them as villains. I only criticized the blatantly hypocritically and upside down morality of this show. You want to defend that, okay I'll argue because it's ridiculous for Soji to be treated as anything but an out and out monster, but this wasn't even my big complaint of the episode lol. I expect this kind of ridiculous writing here. I was far more bothered by Picard's pointlessly frail robot body.

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Sure you're minimizing it when you feel you're making some kind of valid point by saying "yes she's a murderer but Oh..."

Also I just don't understand why Oh's clearly morally correct goal of saving all intelligent life from extermination can't be acknowledged while Agnes and Soji are defended so vociferously.

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Well all I did is point out the absurdity of the Scooby Gang being cool with what she did, and you wanted to argue that of course they would be because she made the noble choice of not exterminating all intelligent life in the end. I'm talking about the writing being ridiculous. It's not about me being "hung up" on anything. Soji is not a good person. They had to beg her not to mass murder everybody, and in the end she only stopped for Picard (who she was trying to kill the whole time anyway!!!).

 

It occurs to me to wonder if we’ll see Picard defending her during her trial. That would potentially be an interesting counterpoint to Measure of a Man.

 

I remember that but...

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that statement by Agnes was only based her understanding of the technology at the Institute. Agnes specifically states that a being like Soji was impossible. It is clear that Maddox went well beyond that and basically reconstituted Data’s consciousness. Thus Data as we knew him had the ability to converse with Picard when Picard’s consciousness was also in the quantum state. Based on everything presented it is reasonable to believe he could’ve been put in a body like Picard.

Personally I think they should’ve ended it with Data being brought back to life in an aging body like Picard (thereby continuing his exploration of the human experience) and somehow he helps cure Picard.

min closing I am also not a fan of the way they resurrected Picard. At this point they should be able to scan everybody every day and if anybody passes they could just bring them back in an android body. Really a slippery slope to go that way.

 

Overall I liked it and I look forward to the 2nd season.

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So they sat around and cried for a death scene, then showed thy can just save you and put you in a new body. Meh.

They just left the Borg cube? Fix that thing and make that your new ship!

Retired? Here's a fleet!

I do hope in season 2 they do something with 7of9 and Raffi, develop it into a decent story. Raffi also has a family subplot to deal with.

As a life extension advocate I detest the idea that death gives life meaning. Detest. It. But I am not Data, and if that is the way a character views it that's all well and good.

#1 character I want to see in season 2 = Q.

 

Viewing the Zhat Vash at the good guys of the story is an odd read, kinda ignores all the genocide and, y'know, mass murder that they did in every damn episode. Planetary sterilization protocol 5 isn't exactly a command you'd get from the heroes.

 

Especial when all the androids and the evil alien AI space god beacon are in the same place and can be destroyed with a concentrated disruptor volley, but no we’re going to glass an entire planet instead.

 

Interesting Chabon interview, short version he says he'll write 2 eps of S2 (he has co-writing credits on all of S1 except ep 1 and co-story credits on all 10 eps) and lay out the season but when production starts he'll be more hands off. (working on a different show) Also another interview here that is more finale centric

also found this quote interesting re. deaths of prominent xBs Icheb and Hugh
In the course of this season, we show the death of Icheb, who was a recurring character on “Voyager,” and then the death of Hugh, who was a recurring character on “TNG.” When we talked about it, we definitely had a sense of like, there’s probably going to be some people who are upset that these characters have died. And we were okay with that, because we thought in both cases, neither death was gratuitous. The death of Icheb has now become part of the story of Seven of Nine. It felt completely called for and we couldn’t have told her story without it. I mean, the death of Icheb is upsetting partly because it’s fairly gruesome, which I understand, but also because, you know, he’s so powerless, he has no agency. He’s really a victim. But that isn’t the case with the death of Hugh. He dies trying to do what he’s been trying to do for his entire adult life, which is help former Borg. His death felt meaningful.

I will say, I don’t think I quite understood that there were going to be people who would be upset about a character’s death regardless of how that character died. That simply the fact of a character dying — that was not okay with them. Even if I had known that I would have ultimately dismissed it because it seems — I just don’t understand television in that way.

 

"It's not a whataboutism...but here are a bunch of whataboutism arguments".
Firstly, I don't accept that past Trek was as shoddily written, across the board throughout entire seasons as this. Not even close. What we had was silliness, cheesiness & a few turds of episodes within seasons usually consisting of 20+. In any case I don't see how that even matters. It all needs to be taken in context. TOS was guilty of stupid 1960's TV elements. The other shows' flaws were also of their time. 'Picard' is a 2019-20 show, made in what's recognised as a golden age of TV. To me, specifically in terms of writing & story planning it was a throwback to b-grade 90's standards. With the quality we've become accustomed to, it's been a long time since I've noticed the types of weird choices & blunders made during this season. Fortunately I was able to enjoy the show due to the actors & characters, the themes, the visuals & the setting. The best thing about this show to me is that finally, for the first time since Voyager we have a show or movie that isn't a damned prequel. We're actually moving forward into an uncharted time period.

Yes it does, in those specific instances. The reason this show seemed badly planned & executed is bcs there are so many of those examples. No show is perfect, but when the blunders mount up to the degree they did here, that's when the lack of writing quality really stands out, esp when compared with high-end TV content of today.

 

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What upside down mortality?

Anges commited a murder (which the show and her charecter reconize as bad and which she's trying to make up for) and Soji nearly commited genocide (which agian both the show and, once she relized her mistake, the charecter, reconize as a bad thing) but realized what she was doing was a mistake and turned back and corrected her mistake before anything happened actually happened (and if she almost caused a genocide then she definatly also prevented that same genocide by closing it)

Nobody, either here or in the show, is pretending what either of them did was morally right. The difference is that Oh and the Zhat Vash, unlike them, have commited much greater crimes and express absolutly zero remores or regret, so ultimatly Oh's decision to stay her hand means far, far less then Anges's remorse or Soji's change of heart.

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Patrick Stewart is almost 80 - reality more or less dictates the android body being the way it is

He look, what did I just ask you, for the billionth time?

'm not sweeping anything under the rug. And can we maybe not have you start putting words In my mouth agian and tell me I'm saying things or holding opinions that I don't hold, please? As I've said before (multipule times) it's really annoying.

I've never once defended Anges or Soji's crimes, so I don't know what your getting at here.

Who says their "cool" with what she did? Are you privy to a deleted scene were they say this?

They trust her becuse she's there freind and she ultimatly chose to do the right thing (and then helped bring Picard back to life). That does'nt mean their okay with what she tried to do.

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Well I guess we'll just have to wait until next season to find if your suspicions are justifed

As of now we currently we have no reason to belive that she's going to prove herself unworthy of her crewmate's trust, backtrack on her devolopment and turn around and rebuild the beacon.

I mean, is it really a different ship if the only difference is the necelles? I mean I all likelyhood necelles can (probobly) detach anyway.

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Data's positronic net being lost does'nt necessarily mean his memories were lost - just like if my computer sufers a softwhere crash it does'nt necessarily mean the memory on the hardrive gets wiped. Evidently whatever Maddox and Soong did do they could'nt copy over Data into a new body, since they did'nt, so seemingly Anges's statement is still true (or perhaps the brains of the Maddox/Soong androids are'nt as avanced as that Noonien created*).

*that makes sense since, with the exception of Soji and Dahj all the androids we've seen are either apparently not super bright (Saga and Arcana) or not entirely stable (Sutra and, lets be honest, probobly her sister too becuase only a sick and twisted monster would eat French fries dipped in peppermint ice cream)

Apparently Spiner's condition for coming back was that Data's death in Nemesis not be undone, so I doubt a revival for the charecter was ever in the cards with the show.

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Realisticly speaking with the technology they have even in the TNG/DS9/VGR era it's honestly suprising that this is'nt already a thing.

I mean hell even without technology Vulcans could theoreticly just put their katra into someone, clone a new body and then fal-tor-pan their way into said clone.

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I can't imagine much of the Cube would be left if they tried to fly it back into space, lol; I doubt it was meant to land or even operate in low atmosphere.

As for Seven and Raffi honestly I'd rather they have done something this season. I'm all for them being a couple but it was so random and tacked-on at the last minate with no setup that all I can think is "eh, I care why?" Like at least we know Rios and Anges f-ed and they've built a realtionship as freinds over the course of the season so it makes sense to see them kiss.

And lets face it, Q's probobly to busy trying to woo Janeway to bother with trolling Picard (either that or ascended Sisko threatened to beat him up if he did'nt stop messing with mortal affairs)

It could be that "Sterilization Protocol 5" is "concentrated bombardment of major population centers" or something

I'm not making whatabout arguments*. And I'd kindly ask you not to claim I'm doing things that I know for a fact I'm not doing, thank you.

*A whataboutism is if I tried to said "well X did Y thing so why can't Z" which is'nt what I'm doing. All I'm saying is that I don't see the point in picking apart this show for minor flubs becuse if I did that then I would'nt have much fun watching any Star Trek, since most have such issues far larger and more numerus then Picard does.

Err...the Golden Age of Television ended like six years before before TOS aired. If anything we're in TV's twilight years, since barely anyone has cable anymore.

And I really don't see what the date of when the program is made has to do with anything aside from the quality of special effects or social norms. Shows made toward have flaws of their own, just like shows made in the early 2000s, 90s, 80s and 60s, and that includes the occosional rare and minor plot hole/error in the writing - shows today ain't perfect, that's for darn sure.

I fail to see the "so many" "blunders" that you mention, and it hardly seemed badly planned to me. Really of the two I can think of the only one that really approches "bad" writing is the ships leaving - the EMH definatly is'nt, as the writing for that was deliberate and consitent with how that machinery has been shown to operate, it's just that you personally have different expectations for what should have happened/how the technology should work; that's fine but it does'nt mean the show's writing is objectivly "bad" if it does'nt mesh with your personal expectations.[/Spoiler]

 

This thread is about this show. In your efforts to deflect every single complaint that is presented here, saying "But what about here in TOS, or what about here in TNG" are textbook examples of whataboutisms.

The term more recently refers to the unprecedented proliferation of high quality shows across all platforms, going back to the time of The Sopranos until now, & still ongoing. Every year there are more highly acclaimed shows than most people can keep up with. This means there's alot of great writing & show-runner talent available. Shame that 'Picard' didn't tap into any of it.

There were 5 or 6 factors that made that ridiculous, as we covered. There are dozens of other significant problems in this season. The whole thing seemed to be hurriedly slapped together by a bunch of novice writers given a large budget & good actors.

 

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Upside down "morality," excuse me. Autocorrect/typos are my curse.

Don't agree at all. I think the show presents Agnes and Soji as adorable cutie pies that were forced to do/almost do something bad. The show offered no resolution at all to Agnes's murder arc, and Soji is just happily chillin with her buds right after trying to exterminate them and their loved ones and their civilization. No regret or cloud hanging over either of them. It's just a chummy happy ending.

It's definitely weird to me that the show treats the people that were trying to protect the Galaxy from reapers as the big villains. Clearly Soji should have been treated as the big villain. That's how I'll always view her. Trying to wipe out all intelligent life is big villain behavior. Doing bad stuff to prevent that genocidal extermination isn't that.

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Right. So don't make him a robot.

I'm not speaking for you. In my opinion, what you're saying has that effect. I'm speaking for myself. Do I have to put "imo" before every single sentence when I speak to you? In my opinion, when you say "sure she's a murderer but Oh is so much worse..." you are minimizing it. I don't care about how evil Agnes's murder is compared to Oh's (though I think the cruel and slow murder of a loved one for no good reason is on the super evil side of the spectrum). I care that Agnes is a murderer and the show shouldn't sweep it under a rug, especially if they want me to view Oh as a big bad villain, despite being Agnes on simply a larger scale, but not with loved ones. Either the vision makes people not responsible for their evil acts in furtherance of the goal to prevent genocide, or it doesn't. It can't be both just depending on whether the character is friends with Picard.

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For the "billionth time," since you employed that phraseology, I'm not writing deleted scenes in my head just because you always seem to explain stuff by assuming off screen scenes. On the show, at the end, everyone was happy and together and Soji is welcome on the ship with everyone as a crew member or hitching a ride or whatever. Yes that makes them stupidly cool with her. She just tried to murder them and their loved ones and their whole civilization. What a dumb nonsensical setting. She's not their friend. She's the villain that was two seconds away from murdering them on purpose and they had to beg her for their lives.

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It's not my suspicion. I judge her moral character based on her goal of murdering all intelligent life in the Galaxy. That goal makes her a bad person. She can't change it. She can't fix it. The show can't pretend she's a poor misunderstood cutie pie. She's a monster.

 

There's an element of self-defence to the dubious behaviour of the synths - they're attacked without having done anything - some of them conclude that the only way to survive is to hit back.

In that respect, the story's following pretty traditional lines - those who murder because of prophesied behaviour, end up creating the threat they were trying to prevent.

 

Mass murdering trillions is not self defense.

 

From the point of view of the synths - they're the ones being genocided.

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I see Sutra as kind of like Magneto in X-Men 2 - she knows her people are facing would-be genociders, and she tries to genocide them. She's wrong - but her belief is understandable.

Soji is like a Magneto who can be talked out of it. And has only been a "member of the brotherhood of mutants" for a very short time.

 

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This isn't a point of view discussion. Preemptive mass murder of everyone is not self defense. It's just mass murder. From their povs, since they were willing to do that, they're monsters.

 

The difference is

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that the synths are the ones who've been mass murdered, by the Zhat Vash, to the point that they now believe the only way to stop the Zhat Vash is to activate the beacon.

They're wrong - but it's clear IMO that this is "grey and gray morality" and the Zhat Vash are the darker grey - the aggressor, to the synths' defender.

 

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It's not that I don't understand your distinction. It's that it's meaningless to me. They aren't trying to stop the Zhat Vash. They're trying to destroy literally all biological life in the Galaxy. Self defense has a literal definition. That doesn't qualify. If it did, our society could justify countless evils that we flat out do not. And without any question under the sun, the goal of murdering everyone is far more evil than the goal of preserving biological life in the Galaxy.

 

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"Destroying all biological life in the galaxy" is a side-effect of stopping the Zhat Vash.

Like I said - they've been given good reason to believe that "it's them or everyone else" and they've been attacked, repeatedly.

These aren't the Daleks we're dealing with here, who seek to destroy all but them because they believe they are superior - these are victims of oppression, victims of attempted genocide - who have been given reason to believe they can only take out their oppressors, and stop their own genocide, by using a weapon that takes out everyone but them.