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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

PT Making My Day! - Pro-Prequel Articles

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Jarren_Lee-Saber, Dec 10, 2014.

  1. G-FETT

    G-FETT Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Aug 10, 2001
    That's pretty darn cool. May do a "follow up" video on that sometime soon. Will give you a shout out for pointing this out. :D
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2019
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  2. Sab Jo

    Sab Jo Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2013
    But . . . But . . . Where's the ragtag group of plucky heroes? It isn't real Star Wars otherwise.
     
  3. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011
    Don't forget to include the cynical wisecracker with a heart of gold.
     
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  4. -NaTaLie-

    -NaTaLie- Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 5, 2001
    The stuntman talks about good and bad movie stunts, including Star Wars. It's primarily about The Last Jedi but he mentions briefly Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan vs the droids in TPM in a positive way.



    I've always felt the opening of TPM was underrated so it's nice to see it's actually appreciated by the professionals.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2019
  5. -NaTaLie-

    -NaTaLie- Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 5, 2001
    Feels like half of the comments think Anakin should be numero uno.
     
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  6. Deliveranze

    Deliveranze Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2015
    Not to bring negativity or anything, but clearly Watchmojo does what it does best: general rankings based off generic geek opinion.

    Today they just posted this:


    Most of the comments are pretty defensive of Hayden, unfortunately the most popular ones are "It's not Hayden's fault George Lucas sucks and can't make good movies ," which is just PT hate repurposed and repackaged.
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2019
  7. devilinthedetails

    devilinthedetails Fiendish Fanfic & SWTV Manager, Interim Tech Admin star 6 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Jun 19, 2019
    I still think a lot of the hate for Hayden's acting in Episode II and for Episode II in general comes from people misinterpreting the genre of Episode II and Anakin/Padme's relationship in Episode II. I have the impression that many people believe Anakin and Padme are supposed to have this classical, perfect romance, and if you judge Episode II by that standard, you're likely to come away thinking it's a bad movie with awkward acting by Hayden and Natalie. If you interpret Episode II more as I do as prelude to tragedy in which Anakin and Padme's romance is less a traditional happy-ending romance and more a romantic tragedy, you're most likely going to think it's a good movie where Hayden and Natalie turn in acting performances that suit the movie.

    I'll put it this way: few of the criticisms I hear about Hayden's acting in Episode II or about Anakin and Padme's relationship in Episode II seem to interpret Episode II as anything other than an attempt at a perfect romance, so I think if Episode II is interpreted in its proper context as a prelude to tragedy, many of those criticisms evaporate. To me, it's honestly kind of baffling that people still have trouble seeing Episode II in the context of the saga and the Prequels as anything but what it is: a prelude to tragedy. Anakin and Padme aren't a romantically ideal couple; they are a tragic couple. I wish more people could appreciate that distinction.
     
  8. -NaTaLie-

    -NaTaLie- Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 5, 2001
    A very positive video about TPM. Doesn't even bash Jar Jar or Jake :)

     
  9. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011
    I personally think it really is the corny dialogue. Some people are into it, most aren't.

    "My heart is beating, hoping that kiss will not become a scar." A lot of people can't get over the fact that no one in the real world talks like that. Me, I don't care. I like the emotional rawness of it, and contrary to popular sentiment I think Christensen's performance in this scene is far more compelling than it has any right to be given the preposterousness of the lines he's delivering. He just goes for it and speaks everything he says with total and absolute conviction, no matter what it is. He truly is really good in Episode II, and it's a shame that he got such bad reviews simply because people didn't like the character he was playing or the lines he was given.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2019
  10. devilinthedetails

    devilinthedetails Fiendish Fanfic & SWTV Manager, Interim Tech Admin star 6 Staff Member Administrator

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    Jun 19, 2019
    @The_Phantom_Calamari I do think the dialogue criticism is fair for the Anakin/Padme romance, though I do feel like on a whole dialogue isn't the strength of the Star Wars movies. I personally don't love Star Wars for the dialogue (though there are some lines that I do love) so much as I do for the characters and the creative settings. I put up with the awkward and corny dialogue because I love the other elements of Star Wars.
     
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  11. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011
    On the contrary, I've always felt the Star Wars movies had great dialogue. It's just not the kind of dialogue that critics consider to be "sophisticated," so they don't see it as worthy of praise. It's old-fashioned, pulpy, B-movie dialogue. It's the kind of dialogue Edgar Rice Burroughs might have written if he were hired to write a screenplay. And in that sense, it's perfectly crafted.

    I don't think dialogue that's as quotable as the stuff from Star Wars could ever be truly bad. Virtually every line is memorable and packed with meaning. And it's all very versatile; there's a perfect Star Wars quote for almost any situation. How many movies with what is considered to be "good" dialogue manage to leave as much of an impression as the Star Wars films and their dialogue? Very few, I think.
     
  12. Tonyg

    Tonyg Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 16, 2016
    Yes, we discussed here several times that the dialogue should be like this. It is a space opera. Even more, in the OT the dialogue is no less "corny" (I hate this epithet as it practically means nothing but I know, many people use it) and it is such for the same reason. I think there are two factors here in PT: the style of speaking is old fashioned as in OT only the older generation speaks like this and occasionally, princess Leia. But there is something more important, I think: many people cannot swallow the fact that the hero is put in embarrassing situations especially with his beloved one. They think this is for losers but is not like this at all. In the classic legends novels even movies that inspired SW, the hero is indeed put in embarrassing situations. Only in relatively recent Hollywood action movies is not like that. I short they cannot accept the fact that Anakin is not Han Solo no matter that obviously he was ever meant to be like him.
     
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  13. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011
    Personally, I've come to embrace the word "corny." But I agree with you, especially when it comes to the OT being no different.

    "Your eyes can deceive you. Don't trust them." This is trite, fortune cookie filler. There's nothing particularly deep, witty, or eloquent about it. It's also a great line. Why? I don't know, it just is. And the line, "There's always a bigger fish" is just as great a line, for all the same ineffable reasons.

    "Never tell me the odds"? That's the kind of line that sounds like it was written by a computer programmed for maximum cliché. It's the most obvious thing a risk-taking rogue character could possibly say. It's almost comical how on-the-nose it is. But, again, it's a classic line. "POWER! UNLIMITED POWER!!!" Also classic.

    I love all of it.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2019
  14. Deliveranze

    Deliveranze Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2015
    Agree. SW fandom really fails to embrace the deliciously beautiful cheese that a franchise called "Star Wars" can only bring.
     
  15. -NaTaLie-

    -NaTaLie- Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 5, 2001
    Some fans are just immature and attack the actors or Lucas simply because they didn't get what they wanted. I dislike the ST but I'm not going badmouth the writers or actors, I'm sure they tried to do the best they could.

    As for Hayden (and Jake) they simply had to deal with the shadow of Vader - God forbid they display any kind of little human weaknesses. Because, of course, such an iconic villain never threw temper tantrums when things didn't go his way :rolleyes: I assume kids watching the saga in the chrono order aren't going to deal with this.

    @The_Phantom_Calamari, spot on about Hayden/Anakin being so earnest. I think he's really adorkable [face_laugh]
     
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  16. KyleKartan

    KyleKartan Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 4, 2004
    Consindering Dialogue: Tarantino always gets praise for his dialogue and indeed they are written well. But honestly: nobody talks like that. Nobody is that snarky, witty, spontaneous as he writes his dialogue. I like his style and his movies very much but I can tell mostly that his dialogues are thought long about written words to come over as cool as possible.
     
  17. Tonyg

    Tonyg Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 16, 2016
    The dialogue of SW shouldn't be "realistic" (as you explained it, if people talk like that or not) having in mind that the events happen in a galaxy far away long ago. If the dialogue was closer to the real world style of speaking it would be less convincible because it would look more Earth-like. I think this is one of the problems of the ST dialogue: as is closer to the real way of speaking it looks less realistic in-universe.
     
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  18. Tonyg

    Tonyg Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 16, 2016
    Well, actually, to choke officers who failed to fullfil the commander's desires is not exactly a strength, I would say. The mask and the mechanical voice cover the frustration but the acts of Vader speak for themselves. Only he looks frightening (which for some viewers means cool) so they ignore his obvious weaknesses.
     
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  19. rpeugh

    rpeugh Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 10, 2002
    That really cuts to the heart of people's misunderstanding of episode 2 (and the prequels in general). Gallifreyan Jedi talks about that in one of his youtube videos. He thinks people were expecting some Danielle Steel novel or something. People also dont realize just how much their relationship affected his turn to the darkside. Its not just that he is trying to save his wife from death. Its a wife he really shouldnt even be married to in the first place. But he just kept pushing things for purely emotional reasons. Its just funny that people seem to want to skip the romance scenes in episode 2 then they seem baffled at his turn in ROTS, thinking it came out of no where.

    Even within the confines of that understanding I will admit there are some flaws to the love story, but it is no where near as bad as people make it out to be. Keeping the Padme bedroom scene would have helped a lot. Its a deadly serious, intimate scene, it was short enough and it matched the tone of the rest of the movie.
     
  20. devilinthedetails

    devilinthedetails Fiendish Fanfic & SWTV Manager, Interim Tech Admin star 6 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Jun 19, 2019
    @rpeugh Great post. I agree that many people seem to have expected a perfect romance in Episode II and that was simply never going to happen between Anakin and Padme. The point of Anakin and Padme's romance is that it's meant to be a tragic one. Episode II contains many of the surface elements like a beautiful landscape in a romantic getaway type place complete with an idyllic picnic on a meadow and there is the seemingly happy ending of Anakin and Padme's wedding. However, under all that is the truth that this is a forbidden passion that must remain secret and that Anakin has already displayed many of the dark tendencies that will bring about so much destruction, and Padme has overlooked or enabled many of these dark traits. This has the trappings of classical romance, but all the story elements and character development of tragedy.

    I agree with you that a lot of people don't seem to understand or appreciate how much Anakin's relationship with Padme impacted his fall to the Dark Side. Padme is a wife he isn't allowed to have or he will be expelled from the Jedi Order. He can't leave the Jedi Order in his mind since Padme herself says that she wants him to stay in it. He can't confide his troubles directly to Obi-Wan, his best friend, which leaves him very vulnerable to Palpatine's influence. He also is someone who has already had nightmares that come true in terms of the death of his mother (Anakin connects his dreams of losing Padme with those of losing his mother). So Anakin is wrestling with a love that is forbidden to him, fear of losing someone else that he loves, and trying to fight prophecy which he has already seen come true once with his mother. To me, Anakin's line in Episode II of "It will destroy us" really speaks to the power that their secret romance did indeed have to destroy both of them. That's not a line found in a sweet, ideal romance, but it is one found in a tragedy, which is what the Prequels to me are fundamentally intended to be.

    When I first saw Attack of the Clones at eleven, I didn't like a lot of the Padme/Anakin scenes since I thought Anakin said things that were "creepy" not romantic and looked at Padme in ways that were at times possessive. But I've come to realize that was the point. Anakin's feelings for Padme weren't entirely pure. There was a possessive and unhealthy component that was meant to be there to help foreshadow and explain Anakin's fall to the Dark Side. Without those elements, Anakin's fall to the Dark Side would honestly be less believable to me. So, I can understand not liking or enjoying those parts, but I do think it is important to acknowledge why those troubling parts are there and it isn't because those troubling parts are supposed to be in a perfect relationship. Now, if someone correctly identifies the genre and still doesn't like Attack of the Clones or the Prequels, then I think that is perfectly fair. Not everyone is going to like tragedy, and that's okay, and the Prequels did have some flaws in their execution of the tragedy, which I think are fair to point out, for sure, just as you say.
     
  21. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    The problem is that to include that scene, Lucas would also need to include the previous Padmé's parents' house scene, which in and on itself is around 3/4 minutes long.

    It's also why he completely cut the Rebel Alliance scenes in ROTS. To leave one would require leaving the rest as well.
     
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  22. devilinthedetails

    devilinthedetails Fiendish Fanfic & SWTV Manager, Interim Tech Admin star 6 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Jun 19, 2019
    @Alexrd You make a good point. Sometimes scenes are so linked that to include one you have to include them all, and that can impact the running time of a film very quickly. I do enjoy those moments as deleted scenes however (they are some of my favorite ones to watch) and luckily the novelization of AOTC includes them so at least they are out there for us to enjoy despite the fact they didn't make the film's final cut.
     
  23. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    Yes, running time and pacing.

    I'm also glad that Lucas provided the funds to finish the special effects and made them available for us to see and enjoy.
     
  24. Tonyg

    Tonyg Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 16, 2016
    What means perfect romance? Is important question to understand the expectations of some part of the audience towards Ani&Padme's love. If perfect means the essential classic one type of romance then I would say Tristan and Isolde, Lancelot and Guinevere and of course Romeo and Juliet among others. Surprise they all are romance of tragic love. If someone was expecting Hollywoodesque sugar and sweets type, well there is nothing in the movies that alludes it. First we know that Padme passed away from the OT (even before here name we know her fate). So there should be some tragic story. But more important: this is epic love story and is epic because is interconnected with the fate of the world. Those love stories no matter if they end in tragic or happy way are always the key for big changes or depend on them. And Anakin and Padme's love is indeed such kind of story is not the romance of neighbors around the corner and is not intended to be such. Is raw, unpolished and strong. And special. They are connected so strong through their love that if this connection is cut they cease to exist. Two examples: Padme ruminations scene and the death of Padme from ROTS explain it all.
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2019
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  25. devilinthedetails

    devilinthedetails Fiendish Fanfic & SWTV Manager, Interim Tech Admin star 6 Staff Member Administrator

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    Jun 19, 2019
    @Tonyg I was using "perfect romance" to mean a romance with the happily ever after, "this is a love we should all emulate" sense. I would consider Lancelot and Guinevere, Tristan and Isolde, and Romeo and Juliet all as tragic romances rather than perfect romances. With couples like Romeo and Juliet or Anakin and Padme, I don't believe the message is that we should love like they do, but rather that we should learn from the flaws that led to their tragedies. The last scene of Romeo and Juliet has a particularly apt quote in this regard: "All are punish'd." That to me applies to Romeo and Juliet as aptly as it does to ROTS. By the end of Romeo and Juliet, the young lovers are punished for their impulsiveness and their families are punished for their hatred. By the end of ROTS, Padme is dead, Anakin is mangled beyond recognition by lava, the Jedi are fallen, and the Republic is now an Empire. Again, all are punished because all our flawed. At least that is my perception. To me, the meaning of tragedies tends to be in understanding the tragic flaws of everyone involved. That's why I think of Anakin and Padme like Romeo and Juliet having tragic flaws that lead to their downfall. These flaws are meant to be sympathetic to the audience but still lead to the downfall of these characters.
     
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