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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

PT Many fans are starting to re-evaluate the PT after the ST

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by KyloLukeLeia, Nov 1, 2020.

  1. DarkGingerJedi

    DarkGingerJedi Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Nov 21, 2012
    I don't think the ST makes the PT movies any better. And I don't think my views on their quality has improved over time. They're only better, in the sense that the ST are worse movies, so the PT is no longer the worst SW movies.

    That said, I think the PT's quality issues come down to dialog, wooden acting, Jar-Jar, the story-telling, some effect-work feeling very green screen and artificial looking. But the story of a man who rises and falls to the dark side, set against a Republic that becomes corrupted and turned evil, is great. There are a ton of really fun moments in the trilogy, namely, pod-racing, duel of the fates, the Clone-Arena battle, the last half of ROTS. The world-building is outstanding. Cool characters too. The music is also fantastic and I still hum DotF to this day. The entire thing is set in a different era than the OT, but still feels quintessentially SW. It makes the whole thing a lot bigger too, and it leads organically and naturally right into the OT. In the end, it gets a lot of points for at least trying. If I had to rate them best to worst, it would be TPM, ROTS, AOTC.

    To me the ST is the opposite. The acting is great. The dialog is okay for the most part. The effects feel real and authentic. But there's no story, there's little world-building. i don't really like the characters. There isn't much fun to be had. I don't remember the music at all (save for Rey's Jedi Steps theme). It feels small and shrinks the galaxy down to what seem like a single solar system at times. And it doesn't feel like it progresses the saga story naturally in a forward direction. If I hate to rate them best to worst, it would be TFA by a lightyear and then somewhere down the line...TROS, TLJ.
     
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  2. Daxon101

    Daxon101 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 7, 2016
    But the people who grew up with the OT had their 11-12 year period of ripping the hell out of the PT with very little defence for them. its not until recent years that people have started to speak out in their defence. and the idea that you was "wronged" by the PT is a very strange one. how was you "wronged" by it? because it wasn't what you thought it was gonna be? isn't what you wanted it to be?

    I mean people say in previous posts that its not about nostalgia. and i agree that not everyone shares that whole nostalgia issue. but i do think alot of the fanbase did have that nostalgia issue.

    I remember after we see R2D2 fly in AOTC people decided that was dumb and hated it. personally i always thought that was a strange issue to have. and it seemed to be mostly because he didn't fly in the OT that people took it as Lucas retconning him in some way. but what i find hilarious is that the ST gave us BB8, whose practically inspector gadget droid. but R2D2 having little tiny jet packs built in... how ridiculous!

    I look at the youtuber Jeremy jahns as an interesting example of it. he ripped the hell out of the PT for many years. and in one of his more recent videos he has even admitted he was bias towards PT material for a long time. but you can see a transformation with him after the TFA trailer was released. he had a huge smile watching the trailer. like this was gonna be his Star wars!, his nostalgia!. and he gave TFA a fair positive review. and he gave TLJ a generous review... at first. and then started releasing videos being more critical towards it. and then TROS he kinda just ripped the hell out of. and ever since he has been far less critical of the PT. his view on Star Wars in general seems almost changed. his nostalgic view since Disney Star wars seems to have faded abit.

    And its ironic because a big part of the ST was made for the OT fans.
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2021
  3. Darth_Dave_1984

    Darth_Dave_1984 Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Feb 20, 2021
    Thanks for proving my point. You could have just ignored me and let my post speak for itself, but you have to attack. If you don't want to hear criticism from fans like me put me on your ignore list. You're certainly going on mine.
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2021
  4. Daxon101

    Daxon101 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 7, 2016
    I didn't attack you. but fair enough.
     
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  5. KyleKartan

    KyleKartan Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 4, 2004
    Do you have examples of how you were treated with disrespect? Because my experience was quite different. Between 99 and 2005 OT Purists treated my generation of fans with disrespect and told us we are no fans and are not allowed to have an opinion on SW because we came after them. They told us that we are wrong if we like the Prequels and SW didnt belong to us anyway. They took every chance they got to bash these films and didnt understand or at least accept why we loved them. So I would be very interested to see the proof of your claim that Prequel fans dont respect OT fans and treat them unfair or rude. Maybe you have this picture because the PT Fans used to defend themself and the Prequels. But thats just the way it is.

    I'd go as far as saying that some PT fans who dislike the Sequels behave the same way towards ST fans as OT fans towards PT back then and thats as wrong was how OT fans treated the PT generation back in the day.

    And btw: nothing was ever promised to you. Lucas isnt on the record telling about what a dark and grim story you'd get with the Prequels. Feeling wronged by some entertainment movies is something strange anyway. But thats the thing with SW: people are so angry and feel betrayed, hurt, wronged whatever when their expectations are not met and their wishes are not fullfilled. It was this with the Prequels and is the same with the Sequels, This ownership of SW that some fans feel of having over SW is rather strange.

    Exactly!

    [​IMG]

    Uhm...he didnt say ANYTHING insulting or rude. He just made some points which go against the picture you try to paint. No attack or whatsoever was made by @Daxon101 . If you dont want to hear arguments against your points dont post here...

    Its funny. You say you where deeply wounded by the Prequels yet you post here...and expect the Fans of the Prequels who visit this forum to stay quiet when you talk. Classic...

    You didnt do anyhing wrong at all. You made some fair and constructive points.
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2021
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  6. Darth_Dave_1984

    Darth_Dave_1984 Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Feb 20, 2021
    This entire post is sarcastic and another unnessasary attack. I find it hilarious that my opinions anger people so much, just let it go. It's like trying to wade through a blizzard without a snowflake touching my lightsaber around here.
     
  7. KyleKartan

    KyleKartan Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 4, 2004
    I didnt attack you at all. I challenged you to proof your accusations against Prequel Fans of not respecting OT fans. I told about the experiences I had with OT Fans myself and made my points clear.

    Why do you not try to interact with us and proof your points instead of accusing everybody who argues against your points of attacking you? Its not attacking when we are not agreeing with you. Its called disargeement.
     
  8. Guidman

    Guidman Skywalker Saga Mod and Trivia Host star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 29, 2016
    @Darth_Dave_1984
    None of the above posts have "attacked" you at all or you are angering others just because their opinions are not in-line with yours. People have dialogue on the forum all the time even if their opinions are different on each film and they don't cry wolf over it.
     
  9. christophero30

    christophero30 Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    May 18, 2017
    I've found that a lot of how your opinion is received around here is how you present it. If you come across as confrontational or dismissive people are going to tune out the message. I mean this in general, not directed at anyone.
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2021
  10. Darth_Dave_1984

    Darth_Dave_1984 Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Feb 20, 2021
    guidman edit: I apologize but this isn't remotely on topic.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 27, 2021
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  11. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    Back then this place had two sanctuaries, one for Bashers and one for Gushers. Because when people talked about what they liked/disliked in other threads they tended to erupt into flame brawls.
    There were plenty of PT defenders back then, the "Gushers". I am not a fan of labels but it was the accepted label here.

    About "wronged", take the OOT. That still has not been given a proper release in good quality so people that grew up with it might feel a bit miffed about that.

    But to this again is making a sweeping generalization. "If you dislike the PT it is because nostalgia and therefore your opinion does not count."
    I have said if before, nostalgia is a double edged sword. You can get the reaction "You only like because it is about x even though it sucks" and "You only dislike it because it isn't exactly as how it was when you were young."
    So nostalgia can make a person more forgiving OR more critical.
    Hence why I prefer to look at the actual arguments brought forth.

    The issue is consistency. Since the PT came before the OT and if R2 could fly there but not in the OT then the question becomes why. Had it been the other way around then it is easy to assume that R2 had been "upgraded" with rockets. And BB8 is a newer droid so it having more functions makes sense.
    But why would R2 be "downgraded"? Lucas jokes about the warranty running out.
    The issue is simple, if you introduce an ability but then have a situation where that ability would be useful but isn't used, then the question becomes why not?
    In some cases, tech in the PT seems more advanced than in the OT and since the OT comes after the PT then people might wonder why.

    And I can give an opposite example, Kevin Smith. He defended the PT, SW and Lucas quite a bit. And some PT fans hailed him for that. Saying that "he was a great filmmaker", "the lone voice of truth against the evil Hollywood conspiracy". But then Kevin Smith changed his tune and was less positive about the PT and some of those that had praised him now turned on him. Now he was "a hack", "crap filmmaker", "Bribed by the evil Hollywood.".

    I have seen several times the argument that an initial dislike but later like is this person seeing the "truth", "being brave" and getting over his/her bias or something. So it is accepted as truth.
    But the opposite, an initial like but later dislike that is not accepted as often. Then I hear stuff about "Wanting to conform.", "Brainwashed", "Bullied" and other things. In short this is not the truth.

    I do not agree with this reasoning, I think an opinion can change in both ways and neither should be dismissed as not genuine.
    I have stuff that I used to like but don't anymore and stuff I didn't much care for initially but now like.
    I did not much like Blade Runner the first time I saw it. Then I saw it 8-9 years later and now I did.
    Based on first viewing, I liked Jedi more than Empire, but now I have Empire as the better film by far.

    @KyleKartan
    I have been told I was not a SW fan because I did not love the PT. That in order to be a "proper" SW fan then you must love everything with the SW label. I have been told that unless I have made many multi million dollar film hits then I have no right to voice my opinion about the PT.
    I have been called a nazi because I preferred the OOT to the SE.
    I have been told that me not thinking that the PT films are the greatest ever made is because I have malfunction in the brain.
    I have seen some argued that "negative threads" should not be permitted on these boards. That any criticism should be banned.

    I have come across SOME PT fans that argued that Lucas created/owns SW and since their opinion aligns with Lucas, then they are right and anyone that disagrees is wrong.
    I have also come across SOME PT fans that gloated about the OOT not getting a proper release. That it was payback for the criticisms against the PT. They were happy that OOT fans were denied the films they had loved for many years.

    There used to be two sanctuaries here back in the day. Because neither side could not keep the discussion civil.
    And all my examples of rude, dismissive behavior that I mentioned. I said SOME and I know they were NOT the norm. Most could argue their point in civil tones. Where there bashers that crossed the line?
    To be sure. Neither side is innocent here. There have been bad behavior from both.
    As SF-debris said "You had a divided fanbase where both sides had declared open war on each other and confused anyone in the middle for being the enemy."

    These days, the Sanc. are not needed and the discussion is mostly more civil. There are still bans and threads that get locked. But overall there is less mudslinging.
    Deal with the arguments raised and less broad generalization.
    People can like or dislike something for a variety of reasons so lets talk about that and not about putting labels on people.
    There is one PT defender whom I disagreed with a lot about the PT but agreed with quite a bit when it came to the Man of Steel film.

    About the ST, how they are viewed and the change is interesting.
    TFA was liked a lot but then TLJ was more divisive and RoS did not make a great ending.
    So started high but fell downwards.
    The PT was different. TPM was a bit divisive. AotC was initally liked better but became less like over time.
    RotS was seen as the best at the time and that is still the case for many. Including myself.

    So the PT has a clear advantage over the ST, the last film is seen as much better, again overall.
    That can shape the opinion going forward. To end on a high note can be crucial.
    I liked TFA and still do but the other two films I have not even bought on DVD or seen again.
    Potential not fully realized. Which is what I can say about the PT as well.
    The main difference is the PT had an idea, a plan and one person in charge. The ST did not and here it did not work.

    Bye for now.
    Blackboard Monitor
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2021
  12. oierem

    oierem Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 18, 2009
    Putting aside the whole "wronged" debate, what would a "proper release in good quality" be exactly? I mean, had Lucas released the OOT in DVD back in 2004, with the best possible quality at the time (and therefore, satisfying the wishes of many fans), would that be considered enough? Or would people still feel "wronged" about the OOT not being released in Bluray quality in 2011? Or in 4K in 2019?

    You can see how, with the constant technological upgrade, fans would never be satisfied unless the OOT was released again and again with better quality every time.
    (I'm not against that, mind you. Just pointing out that the demand of releasing the OOT in the "best possible quality" could be a never-ending demand)
     
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  13. christophero30

    christophero30 Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    May 18, 2017
    For me I really enjoyed TFA. I disliked TLJ. In fact TLJ made so many changes to characters that for me I don't even want to watch TFA anymore because I know where these characters will go next. I enjoy the PT despite having some issues with it. Still as time goes by I am less of a critic of the PT and I just enjoy it. I love the OT but try not to go on about it too much as it seems to annoy some people around here. But to be alive when the OT came out, it changed moviemaking. It's hard to describe the impact ANH had.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2021
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  14. Sith Lord 2015

    Sith Lord 2015 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 30, 2015
    Completely disagree with this argument. Who says anything about "downgrading"? Some machine has a function when it was new that failed 20 years later. Maybe it's just that nobody bothered to fix it? Maybe I bought a new car with working radio and after 10 years the radio failed. If it's not that important to me I may not have it fixed either. Any machine can fail, and not all are fixed.
    I guess nobody found it that important that a droid was not able to fly anymore. It was just a minor service droid on the Tantive IV, then was sold directly to a farmer. What use would Lars have had for the jets? Did he even know about them? I doubt it. Later R2 was in the service of the Rebellion, and I guess they had more important things on their mind.
     
  15. Daxon101

    Daxon101 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 7, 2016
    Well i wasn't on this forum during that time so i can only go by what i see publically. and its fair to say it wasn't kind to the PT.

    I'm only going by what i see. the PT was hated for such a long time, but when i see people of today. the generation of today or even the generation who grew up in the 90s but never watched star wars. when they watched all 6 or 9 movies for the first time, they don't seem to hate the PT. they ain't coming out of it saying how great the OT is and how the PT suck. they don't seem to have the issues that many had back in the early 2000's and i wonder why that is? if its not nostalgia then what is it?

    And i agree its not nostalgia related for everyone. there are many people who just don't like the PT and thats fair. but there are a large number of people who i do believe were affected by nostalgia.

    What i have always questioned though is what use of the jet rockets would have come in handy in the OT. the only instance i can think of is in TESB to stop him from falling into the swamp. otherwise i dunno if its inconsistent at all if he had no reason to use them in the OT.

    I haven't seen Kevin Smith talk much about the PT. i think there is only 1 mention that i remember. although this is the guy who cried watching the ST. so who knows.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2021
  16. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    Most films are released on DVD in the best quality available at the time then on Bluray. Physical media is a dying breed so how much 4K is going to be is unclear to me.
    And here there isn't much debate about it.
    What is talked about is how good the various versions are, if it is worth the price for an upgrade.

    The SW blurays did get some complaints about the color mixtures and a bunch of technical stuff.
    Which seems to have been fixed with the latest version.

    With the OOT that was different. In 2004, had the OOT been released alongside the SE, much if not all of this debate would never have happened.
    But instead Lucas released only the SE and said that the OOT would never be released.
    Then in 2006 it was released but in substandard quality even for that time.
    That was adding insult to injury. First the OOT would not get released but then it was but in poor quality.

    Adding to this are film festivals that wanted to show the original version of ANH but Lucasfilm acted to stop them.

    If, after Disney bought SW, and had released the OT in 4K but not the PT, I would imagine that some PT fans would cry bloody murder over that. Arguing that this was further proof of how much Disney hates the PT.

    Lucas gets a lot of flak and much of it is undeserved but with the OOT, he has partly himself to blame.
    He knew that the desire for the OOT was there and he could have made money on a proper release and also served film history, which is important to Lucas. Instead he choose this way.

    Where was it established that R2 was new in the PT?
    If R2 units are made to be able to fly then obviously this ability matters.
    And if it fails then a reason should be given as to why it was not fixed. R2 belong to Leia/Alderaan up to ANH. A rich planet. So why would they not have the money to fix R2?
    Had R2 been with Owen between RotS and ANH then sure, that some parts no longer works makes sense.

    When dealing with a fictional world, any writer should be a big careful with what they add. It might end up having unintended consquences. Try to be consistent.
    Take the hyperspace ramming in TLJ. That now begs the obvious question why this hasn't been used before given how devastating it was. RoS tries to offer a weak excuse as to why but doesn't work. To me.

    Bye for now.
    The Guarding Dark
     
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  17. Nate787

    Nate787 Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 29, 2016
    Fans will always have their opinions on the best "quality". That's not the real issue. The real issue is not having a permanent commercially available copy to all fans at all times. To hide the original version that was the wellspring for everything SW that we have today, in favor of a constantly updated "final version" with straight to video updates. That's what OOT fans really care about.
     
  18. Daxon101

    Daxon101 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 7, 2016
    The sequels most certainly opened large doors, like enhancing force healing into something quite OP or as you say Hyperspace ramming. but i ask again... when would R2 flying even have been a needed requirement in the OT? in any of the scenarions all i can think of is 1... maybe 2 if generous. but he isn't exactly flying around everywhere in the PT. he still moves on the ground most of the time. even in ATOC he doesn't fly down the stairs, he goes down naturally. so the whole jet rockets thing was just one of those criticisms that sounded less like there was good reason and more because some people didn't like change.

    And people who watch all the films today don't notice this issue either. if he doesn't fly in the OT no one is questioning why he isn't. because there is no question asked.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2021
  19. QUIGONMIKE

    QUIGONMIKE Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2009
    Great stuff inj here about the miserable OT purists that just loathed the prequels. So lame. I used to love the utterly stupid "George ruined my childhood" whining. You already had your childhood so he cant ruin it. Idiots. I was 6 years old when Star Wars came out so Im in that age range that *should* have hated the prequels when they came out but I didnt. They were great. Some flaws? Sure. Are the masterpieces of cinema? Nah - but thy are great SW movies and that what matters to me. On the other hand, it is the sequels which I have more of an issue with. I dont hate them(TROS is close to being hated by me) but they leave a sort of bitter taste in my mouth. I dunno. I find the prequels simply better star wars movies.

    The sequels havent made me like the PT more but my appreciation and love for the PT remains strong and always will.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2021
  20. Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid

    Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Mar 13, 2014
    Actually there was most likely very little money for Lucas to make on a proper OOT release. I know it sounds impossible, but the OOT is a victim of Star Wars’ own success. Star Wars on BluRay is the biggest money making set of movies on home video. Nothing is even close to as profitable.

    There is very little incentive to add more content and push up sales further. There is almost nowhere for sales to go up. Everyone already bought the movies in the version as is. So the amount of money it would cost to properly remaster the OOT wouldn’t be made back selling them. Not nearly enough people boycotted buying the DVD or Blu-Ray.

    I’d love to get remaster OOT but I’ve given up hope that we’ll see them ever released officially.
     
  21. QUIGONMIKE

    QUIGONMIKE Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2009
    There are fan edits available of the UOT in at least 1080p, I think that you could get your hands on. Just saying.
     
  22. Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid

    Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Mar 13, 2014
    I hear you. But I just can’t get into a fan edit. For me that’s worse than any special edition because it’s someone other than the author modifying the work. I think they are fascinating and have watched clips online.

    Also the specs I’ve seen for downloads of the fan cuts never match up against the official releases. It’s 1080P but much of that is upscale or has a lower nitrate. They are never going to look as good or sound as good as an official release. Especially the official new 4K versions released in 2020. Even with their flaws it’s the best these movie have ever looked on home video.

    What does intrigue me are the 4K scans of actual film prints of the OT. People don’t consider these fan edits, they are fan restorations. That’s a big difference for me, bring a restoration. And there is some options with these scans on the amount of grain reduction and color grading, but the content of the OT - picture and sound - the movies themselves are not changed from the prints George Lucas approved at one time. The picture quality is still not as good as the official 4K movies because the fan restorations are sourced to theatrical prints that aren’t the quality of the negative scanned for Lucasfilm releases.
     
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  23. QUIGONMIKE

    QUIGONMIKE Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2009
    My bad - I did mean restorations! I think those exist as well. Not sure how one gets them though. I forget where I had read about it. Not on this forum though.
     
  24. Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid

    Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Mar 13, 2014
    They’re called 4k77, 4k80, and 4k83. Not sure if 4k80 (ESB) is out yet. And I think I read about a 4k film scan of The Phantom Menace in the future. (Not sure if it’s called 4k99). There is a 4K sca of the Ep1 trailer that is pretty cool. You can find that online.

    For me that 4K trailer scan of the Ep1 trailer was the equivalent of seeing the wind move a weather vane when it came to the prequels being reevaluated by fans.
     
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  25. Sith Lord 2015

    Sith Lord 2015 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 30, 2015
    Well, at least it was 25 years NEWER than in the OT.
    Maybe R2 units don't have jets by default. Maybe it was something added by the Naboo? Maybe it's something subsequent owners didn't even know about?
    It may not have been a matter of money. As I said, maybe that feature simply was not needed in the Alderaan palace OR on Rebel ships? I'm not sure, but I don't see it as a plot hole.
     
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