Characters Mara Jade Skywalker Character Discussion * NEW - Quote Challenge! *

roo: You have no idea how long I've been waiting to be able to do that. This character has inspired many a debate, that's for sure.

Are you threatening me, Master Jedi?

JL: I agree. I figured Mara was probably told about the downfall of the New Republic due it its inefficiency and impotence (mainly due to the Jedi). She did what was necessary to ensure that Palpatine kept his control and stability over the galaxy.

Now, the next question: was Palpatine right?

Trace: I see a big Mara/Vader parallel there in that they were both doing what they thought was right by suppressing threats to the established government.

Is this why I prefer Mara as a smuggler than as a NJO Jedi? Yes, I know, there's an Alliance/Jedi argument going on, but aren't both merely part of the "new order" Nom Anor was talking about...?

Dunc: Board code seriously screws with me. Anyway, I've given up and am adapting the bold/italic method. Having to remove all the spaces offends my delicate visual sensibilities in the edit window.

My first thought on reading this was "Dunc has delicate *anything* sensibilities?! "

My second was: "Yeah, probably - that's why she's so snarky"...

Ehh. I tend to just not read stuff about characters I have no interest in. (I can breeze through the entire NJO in like three days using this method.) And the strip-a-day format annoys me, so I have to wait until one is done before I read it.

Well, it has a respectable dose of Palpatine and Anakin/Vader in it...? The first one's done, anyway - go read, and maybe enjoy?

Wait, so I'm not supposed to embrace the name-calling?

It was more the casual abandomnent of your supposed loyalties, fangirl...

*I'm not sure if that's more a comment on Mara, Shada or Karoly, but I definately think you can be used as a sort of biotech Cliff Notes for Zahn's women *

Figures. Fandom seems to have pretty much embraced the mind-talk concept, hasn't it?

I blame BBS.

Oh, I am. As irrelevant as I find the Crispin version of Han's childhood, I'd still rather have him be an... erm... innocent (of sorts) bystander than yet another Amazing! Connection! Had quite enough of that with Fett in AOTC. (Who says GL doesn't listen to fans? If putting Boba Fett into AOTC wasn't fan service, I don't know what it.)

George doesn't listen to fans, no - he gives them other things to occupy their mouths and minds...

Anyway... topic...

Huh? Where?!

Well, obviously, since rape is all about power, but if a guy is ruling the entire galaxy with an iron fist, does he really need to screw young girls to feel powerful? I doubt it.

I'm not sure how Mara/Palpatine got elided with rape, but I'm uncomfortably aware that I'm the only guy here (Yobi doesn't count, waltzing in and out in that cocktail dress)... so should I back away from this topic?

I agree. I think Mara saw her duties for Palpatine as a necessity to keep order. It's very much "our" side is the right side, no matter what the cost... You don't need to look far for real-world examples of that kind of mindset these days.

*throws copy of The Joiner King into the thread, wrapped around with a box of matches, a pack of marshmallows, and instructions on how to make a campfire and roast stuff*

Gabri: Sorry, still have to disagree. The processes have similarities, but they're not the same.

Besides, you're missing an important step here. We've agreed that the motivations are different. We disagree on the level of similarity in process. What you haven't specifically addressed is effect. And from what we've seen in the EU, the effects are very obviously different, just as the motivation is.

Just as an FYI, by "process", I meant the purely technical Force-contact. I'm not sure that "effect" and "motivation" can be so simply, or so consistently, defined... especially because the process affects those involv

 

TKeira_Lea: I've seen Mara aged older than Luke and younger than Luke. Does anyone have references that give her a definitive age? And how about a home planet?

Zahn says older but I believe only because that was the leading belief at the time - Leland Chee places her younger.

Who knows? I prefer the 'older' version, but I'm one of those folks who really doesn't want to know all the details.

Thrawn McEwok: Well, it has a respectable dose of Palpatine and Anakin/Vader in it...? The first one's done, anyway - go read, and maybe enjoy?

Honestly, I am completely apathetic on the issue of Anakin/Vader. One day I'll be bored enough to read it.

Thrawn McEwok: It was more the casual abandomnent of your supposed loyalties, fangirl...

Oh yes, I simply love it when my supposed 'loyalties' are trotted out as some kind of proof. What, I'm not allowed a personal opinion?

Anyway, mocking is good for the soul. Mock mockity mock.

Thrawn McEwok: *I'm not sure if that's more a comment on Mara, Shada or Karoly, but I definately think you can be used as a sort of biotech Cliff Notes for Zahn's women*

Erm...

Thrawn McEwok: Mara's apple is grown from Palpatine's seed, though. So whither your metaphor?

A better analogy might ne a tree or plant. Mara was brought up quite carefully, propped up with lots of sticks to grow the way Palpatine wanted. I'm not even going to argue who planted the seed.

Thrawn McEwok: Mara, by her own, reluctant admission when she learned to use the word, framed Palpatine as a "man that she loved" in SQ. I was thinking entirely in terms of consenting adults, and I'd see any physical relationship as merely an extra angle or facet; not a new category...

There's more kinds of love than sexual... Love for one's sovereign... Love for a father figure... Etc. The guy had charisma, and big chunks of the galaxy fell for it, as we saw in ROTS. That doesn't mean he was screwing half the Senate. And that's all I have to say about that.

 

McEwok: I'm not sure how Mara/Palpatine got elided with rape, but I'm uncomfortably aware that I'm the only guy here (Yobi doesn't count, waltzing in and out in that cocktail dress)... so should I back away from this topic?

Yes. That and "marakin" (a.k.a. statutory rape/adultery) also.

 

Following current discussion-

NEW TOPIC: Was Mara nothing more than a pawn of Palpatine or was she a predator in her own right?

I think most will agree that Mara was manipulated by Palpatine, though opinions on the degree of that manipulation vary anywhere from misdevoted to brainwashed. True to the nature of a Hand, she followed his orders explicitly and without question.

However - I'll play devil's advocate here - we have at least one example of her desire to kill after the Emperor's death and knowing that her directive was false: After she discovered that the vision sent to her along with the Emperor's "last command" was an incorrect representation of events, she was still determined to kill Luke, knowing that Palpatine had lied to her and even made the statement that it would be on her own terms.

Was her murderous intent in The Last Command justified by the Emperor's voice in her head or was she acting on her own?

 

well, I think she probably was a pawn. If we knew about her upbringing BEFORE palpatine it would help. What sort of influences did she have before Palpatine basically kidnapped her? Or was she taken at such a young age (like lets say 1 year old) that any positive influences wouldn't have had time to be permanent?

Well, I'd say she could be both, but more of a pawn than anything.

 

When you believe in something and then you find evidence that you are wrong, what is your first reaction? Denial.

I think Mara was a little taken aback when she found out that Vader had killed the Emperor, and not Luke. IMO, refusing that Palpatine was "good" also meant believing that Luke had nothing to do with the "destruction of her life". In other words, she could blame no one, she couldn't punish Vader herself for killing the Emperor. People think revenge will ease their pain, however Mara didn't have a person to kill herself and to make them suffer. And, she was already used to blame Luke... so be it. I think she must have thought *He's his son, so maybe if I kill Luke, Vader, in his heavenly cloud, will suffer a little bit...* Moreover, the farmboy can be realy annoying sometimes.

Now that you came up with the word "predator", Trace, something came to my mind. A few weeks ago, I watched on TV a program about domesticated tigers. The poor little cats were taken to a house with people living there with them and the tigers grew affectionate to the humans. They only had a few predator instincts and they didn't harm their "owners" on purpose.
I strange analogy, I know, but I think Mara grew up like that. Her instincts were forgotten and she only did what she was taugh, just like the tigers. The only difference is that the tigers' "owners" cared about the animals. But Palpatine was just that. The owner.

So, definitely, Mara was a pawn in Palpy's hands.
But that doesn't mean her predator instincts didn't came up when Palps' manipulation ended...

 

I think she was both pawn and predator. I think everyone that's under Palps was a pawn to him. Mara had to be a predator growing up in the Empire under Palps she wouldn't have survived it other wise. I also believe that her intent on killing Luke was in her head because she didn't go through with it which says to me that the part of her knew it was wrong and was trying to regain her sense of control over her thoughts but the voice in her head wouldn't leave so basically she was conflicted until she killed clone Luuke.

 

Dunc: Who knows? I prefer the 'older' version, but I'm one of those folks who really doesn't want to know all the details.

Who does, really? That's what I like about Mara fans. They're interested in the story, not the anal details.

Honestly, I am completely apathetic on the issue of Anakin/Vader. One day I'll be bored enough to read it.

'kay.

Oh yes, I simply love it when my supposed 'loyalties' are trotted out as some kind of proof. What, I'm not allowed a personal opinion?

No, I was just attempting a joke.

Anyway, mocking is good for the soul. Mock mockity mock.

*casting call for Dunc: Hugh Grant's sister in Four Weddings and a Funeral*

Erm...



A better analogy might ne a tree or plant. Mara was brought up quite carefully, propped up with lots of sticks to grow the way Palpatine wanted.

Pellaeon would understand (if you get the NJO reference)...

I'm not even going to argue who planted the seed.

That's good, because the subtext in my metaphor was 100% unconscious/unintended!!

There's more kinds of love than sexual... Love for one's sovereign... Love for a father figure... Etc. The guy had charisma, and big chunks of the galaxy fell for it, as we saw in ROTS. That doesn't mean he was screwing half the Senate. And that's all I have to say about that.

But Palpatine and the Senate both got off on what he did to them. And that's all I have to say about that.

Trace: " " to you, too. I've been avoiding that particular issue. Needless to say, I firmly doubt that US Federal Law has jurisdiction in the GFFA, and urge that this topic should be seen in terms of a "wider world". Nevertheless, my apologies for even reminding you of it.

As to the new question, I don't see an absolute duality between pawn and predator...

IMHO, Mara is a warrior-servant - a knight, for want of a better term; a samurai, like Vader... it's her very core. And it's the same whether she serves Palpatine, Karrde or Luke...

IMHO...

- The Imperial Ewok

 

I think Mara was more acting out of instinct in these events, rather than her true desires. Yes, Palpatine had lied to her, but Luke was just some upstart Jedi who was giving her nasty visions. I think she was acting out of an (albiet selfish) self-preservation at this stage. The Last Command wouldn't go away as long as Luke was still around - so Mara fell back on the only survival technique she knew - killing him. Plus that would yield the added bonus of revenge for him having a part in ruining her life.

I think it is also very telling that Mara went around announcing that she was going to kill Luke. What assassin in their right mind does that? Tell the victim and his sister of her intent? No, I believe subconsciously, it was a cry for help. She didn't really want him dead, she just didn't know how else to act.

 

roo: You have no idea how long I've been waiting to be able to do that. This character has inspired many a debate, that's for sure.

McEwok: Are you threatening me, Master Jedi?

Oh no, I'm a pussy cat.

But I was referring to how fun it was to lock a Mara bashing thread because folks had started getting personal about Mara fans. And I even got from Genghis for doing it.


Fan Fic is so much more relaxed. I love you guys.

EDIT: Mark-ups are teh suck

 

I just wanted to get it out in the open that BEN SKYWALKER is MARA & LUKE's son, not ANAKIN SOLO's son!

How about this for pawn and predator, an addendum to what I already posted - he used her as a pawn to train her as a predator. And , JadeLotus, I really like the idea the announcing that she was going to kill Luke being a cry for help. Maybe someone should write a fanfic where Mara goes to a psychiatrist or a psychologist (whichever it would be) and they get down to the darkest regions of her soul. If it was a cry for help, then hopefully someone would have helped her get that help. I do need a reason for the fact that she kept leaving Yavin - she was either commitment phobic (for jedi training) or maybe she was afraid she'd fall to the dark side - after all, the Emperor wasn't a good influence on her, was he?

 

Would you prefer a *thwack*?

 

I wonder who would be the phychiatrist

 

Mara may have started out as a pawn, after all, her youth would have made her an easy target. But I think she became a powerful predator before it was all over. From there I feel she grew into a protector, much like Luke but with more attitude.

 

Jadie: In other words, she could blame no one, she couldn't punish Vader herself for killing the Emperor. People think revenge will ease their pain, however Mara didn't have a person to kill herself and to make them suffer. And, she was already used to blame Luke... so be it.

Excellent point! I can see it ? that her anger toward Vader was transferred to Luke. Interesting analogy about the domesticated tigers. I do believe that, for most people, instinct takes over in stressful situations ? hence the reason that people who deal with intense situations train in advance so that reflex will take over when the need arises.


JEDI_TEEGIRLOO: the voice in her head wouldn't leave so basically she was conflicted until she killed clone Luuke.

(We gotta figure out an abbreviation for your screen name. ) I confess ? I have a problem with the killing-the-clone-Luke thing. I love Zahn, I do! But I think he might have written himself into a corner there. I would much rather have seen her come to terms with her demons without killing a Luke-look-a-like to achieve resolution.


McEwok: That's what I like about Mara fans. They're interested in the story, not the anal details.

*looks at a particular thread in Lit*

Erm?


JadeLotus: I think it is also very telling that Mara went around announcing that she was going to kill Luke. What assassin in their right mind does that? Tell the victim and his sister of her intent?

Exactly! And that has been my contention with certain Anti arguments from the very beginning. Not to mention the fact that she never actually made an attempt on his life. She thought about it, plotted it, dreamed about it, etc. but never actually tried to kill him. Personally, I don?t think she could have (but maybe that?s just my Luke fangirl-ism showing) ? however, I think they both would?ve had a few bruises to show for it if she had.


Liz: he used her as a pawn to train her as a predator.

Works for me!


VaderLVR: From there I feel she grew into a protector, much like Luke but with more attitude.

Agreed!! Force help anyone who crossed her padawan?s path.

 

I am a new Mara fan (thanks to TJK). I didn't care for her in Heir to the Empire, but I didn't hate her either. In that book, she was neither pawn nor predator to me. She was a woman lost, (although she'd never admit it) and she felt adrift in the world so she threw in with Karrde and hoped for the best.

She had lived her life with one purpose, and when that ended she was at lose ends. Her identity was gone. I think that's one thing that distinguishes her from Vader. He always seemed to have his own things going on, he had people who were loyal to him and did spy jobs for him. He sort of served himself in a way, while he served old Sidious. That wasn't the impression I had about Mara, but someone correct me if I'm wrong.

 

Yep, It certainly would have been riveting reading. Mara trying her best to kill Luke, him struggling with trying not to kill her. I think if the EU were ever adapted "officially" to the screen, there'd have to be a Luke/Mara lightsaber fight. Of course, I wouldn't pass up hand-to-hand on Force-devoid Myrkr, either

I like that

I agree. Her whole life was serving the Emperor.

 

Easy question: Totally a pawn, no question in my mind. I don't think she quite realized it until Wayland, but I feel it's pretty obvious that her memories of the Empire are all glowy and 'golden-aged,' like Al Bundy and high school. Four touchdowns in a single game!

Jadie: I strange analogy, I know, but I think Mara grew up like that. Her instincts were forgotten and she only did what she was taugh, just like the tigers. The only difference is that the tigers' "owners" cared about the animals. But Palpatine was just that. The owner.

She was a predator, but a very tame one. Leashed and very, very well trained - I'm thinking more a hunting hound than a tiger. Domesticated. (We're moving up to mammals, folks!)

Jedi_Liz: Or was she taken at such a young age (like lets say 1 year old) that any positive influences wouldn't have had time to be permanent?

That's what I think. More story possibilities that way, anyway.

Thrawn McEwok: Who does, really? That's what I like about Mara fans. They're interested in the story, not the anal details.

Now honey, you know that's not true. Two words: sex thread.

Thrawn McEwok: No, I was just attempting a joke.

Erm. Sorry. One of those things that annoy me.

Thrawn McEwok: Pellaeon would understand (if you get the NJO reference)...

Amazingly enough, I do. I guess I read that part! Go me.

rhonderoo: But I was referring to how fun it was to lock a Mara bashing thread because folks had started getting personal about Mara fans. And I even got love from Genghis for doing it.

Wait... A Mara bashing thread.. locked... on TFN? Are we sure this is TFN?

Jedi_Liz: I just wanted to get it out in the open that BEN SKYWALKER is MARA & LUKE's son, not ANAKIN SOLO's son!

It's only a theory. Theories are fun. And besides, methinks you're preaching to the choir here... Embrace the pain!

JadeLotus: I think it is also very telling that Mara went around announcing that she was going to kill Luke. What assassin in their right mind does that? Tell the victim and his sister of her intent?

Word, word, a million times word.

 

Dunc: JadeLotus: I think it is also very telling that Mara went around announcing that she was going to kill Luke. What assassin in their right mind does that? Tell the victim and his sister of her intent?

Word, word, a million times word.

Y'think?

"Hello. My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die."



[More serious responses later]

- The Imperial Ewok

 

McEwok: Y'think?

"Hello. My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die."

Well, that's two totally different situations. Inigo says that as he has sword in hand, ready to fight the Count.

Mara says it more like:

"I need your help to get out of this jungle, but I'm going to kill you later."

"I need your help to rescue my boss, but I'm going to kill you later."

"I've decided to tell you where Palpatine's big secret base thingy is, but I'm going to kill you later."

I mean, really!


I, for one, don't buy the notion that Mara thought Palpatine was 'good'. I think she believed he was the best thing for keeping order in the galaxy and she was loyal to him partly because of that and partly because it was all she'd ever known. But I like to think she had a few twinges of doubt now and then at some of the assignments she was given. Not to say that I think she ever would have rebelled against him on her own...her training was too ingrained. Not quite brainwashed, but VERY loyal. So I guess my opinion on the question of Pawn or Predator would be pawn.

 

Anakins_Force: She was a woman lost, (although she'd never admit it) and she felt adrift in the world so she threw in with Karrde and hoped for the best.

VERY well said!! (Are you sure you?re a ?new? Mara fan?)


Dunc: I feel it's pretty obvious that her memories of the Empire are all glowy and 'golden-aged,' like Al Bundy and high school. Four touchdowns in a single game!

Good one!


Kay:

Mara says it more like:

"I need your help to get out of this jungle, but I'm going to kill you later."

"I need your help to rescue my boss, but I'm going to kill you later."

"I've decided to tell you where Palpatine's big secret base thingy is, but I'm going to kill you later."

Too true!! You know that by TLC Luke had to be thinking: 'Riiiiiight. Okay, then. But since we?re about to go face this crazy dark Jedi, let me teach you how to use the Force better. And then, whenever you do get around to killing me, you can be even more deadly.'

And you gotta love Leia's response: 'You're going to kill my brother? Uh-huh. Well, take a number, sweetheart.'

 

Mara...Well, I think that the desire to kill Luke after Palpatine's death was at least partially out of her control. I mean, she didn't WANT to be having all those dreams. I think that she was probably a pawn, but with more of a tendency to kill than, say, Obi-Wan. She had a slightly angrier nature, more prone to lash out at someone or harm them, and Palpatine took advantage of her temper. (Somehow) he used the dreams to incense her again Luke, to get her to WANT to kill him. But she is not, in her own right, a bad person. She's perfectly capable of mercy, kindness and love.

 

As to the question of pawn or predator?

Palpatine was a master of using peoples' weaknesses to achieve his own ends. Most everyone who passed through his life was a pawn of some sort, certainly Anakin and even Padmé and Obi-Wan.

I never thought Anakin was inherently dark, but there were traits within him and events in his life that had compelled him in that direction. If those events weren't of Palpatine?s making, he sure did a good job of taking advantage of them.

This is probably true of Mara too. I don?t think she was a ravenous predator, bent on kills and destruction. But there were some primal instincts inside her ripe for the picking. Probably through some series of events, Palpatine twisted her life to such a point that those instincts would supersede all others.

Remember these were long relationships in both cases. Palpatine had to work to make her this way. But I?d argue that if you took any dog and put it in a cage where food was limited, at some point that dog would learn to be more like its wild relative the wolf at dinnertime than the pet you could handfeed a bone.

 

That is one thing about Palpatine, he made sure he developed long, trusting relationships with Mara, Vader, heck the whole galaxy before he pushed the button that would make them his. I think, like Vader, Mara had it within her even back as an assasin to be a good person, and in her mind overall, thought she was. But again, like Vader she had been manipulated so badly (I'm assuming here) that the relationship was a hard one to get away from. In pulling these two powerful people so close to him and earning their trust he made his pawns into predators. I don't think one is exclusive of the other. After all, Luke was a predator. He was trained from the beginning to go after Vader.

 

Good one! Right you are