Characters Mara Jade Skywalker Character Discussion * NEW - Quote Challenge! *

madman:
The Empire = Texas; totalitarian state, will not bend for no one; likes everything made BIG!

I'm from Texas. I hope you're joking here so that I don't have to take offense In what way are we totalitarian?


Viari:
What do you all think of the relationship between Mara and Leia? Does the EU portray it as you think it would be, or do they have it wrong, either all or partially? If you feel it should have been different, what do you think and why do you think it? I can't remember if that's been discussed here recently, but I'll leave it in the air to see if anyone bites.

I also read a fic about them recently. I wish there were more like it.

In the little bit of the EU that I've read, Leia and Mara don't seem to interact much. In TTT, as far as I remember, Leia had faith in Mara similar to the way Luke did. And in the bits of DN that I've read (and by "bits" I mean the previews on the Barnes and Noble website), I think I remember one scene where Leia and Mara link arms or something similar. All this really shows is that they are comfortable with each other, but I'd like to know whether they actually talked about anything of substance. Did they talk about husband problems? Baby problems? Did they spend time together away from their families? I'd also love to know it if any of you have deeper insight

 

Um, yeah - as far as the Empire = Texas, I'd say the Nazi Germany comparison that Vi mentioned is the obvious and established one, and even that specifically refers to Nazi Germany, a specific era and government, not the entire country or group of people. Let's not even go into any unfavorable modern day comparisons about who's most like the bad guys. There's really nothing good likely to come out of that.

I love this subject. And there's a lot to say about both what we see in canon and what could have been or what we think should have been, so I'll try to keep my usual essay-length posting to a minimum here, remembering that I can chime in again later.

Obviously the first time we saw Mara and Leia interact was in TTT, and I think Zahn showed plainly that Leia - as you said elsewhere, Vi - had Mara's number. Leia's an extremely perceptive person, and a generous-minded one unlikely to hold a person's past against her. Mara herself fully expected to be in a detention cell if Leia found out about her past, but Leia did no such thing. When Mara herself told Leia not only her Imperial past but that she planned to kill Leia's brother, Leia reacted with sublime calm and empathy. She apologized for the personal losses Mara suffered on account of the Alliance's victory, she didn't get angry - as she had every right to be - when Mara impulsively and rather callously said that Leia couldn't possibly understand what she'd been through (it was Mara who remembered what a terrible thing it was to say to someone who'd watched her homeworld die, not Leia pointing that out), and she pretty much saw all of Mara's prickliness as exactly what it was: someone who was still fairly messed up psychologically from all she'd been through, and emotional defenses because she was afraid to let anyone close. Leia also, IIRC, was the first to recognize that Mara's desire to kill Luke wasn't her own, but was implanted by Palpatine. Mara hadn't considered that; if Luke had, he'd kept it to himself.

The second time Leia talked to Mara was even more amazing as far as I'm concerned. Leia's just given birth to twins, narrowly escaped losing them to a kidnapping attempt or stray blaster shots, she has the weight of all the problems of Thrawn and Fey'lya and everything else on her shoulders, but Leia is not only trying to get Mara out of custody - despite her Imperial past - but she takes the time to talk to Mara, draw her out, address the psychological issues behind Mara's actions. Everything else Leia has on her plate, and she took the time to play therapist to Palpatine's former personal assassin, because that former assassin obviously needed it. I loved Leia so much for that.

We didn't see quite as much about how Mara would interact with Leia under normal circumstances in TTT, but that was mostly because Mara was never really on normal psychological footing during her interaction with Leia. The clash of her old way of life and Palpatine's command with the reality of dealing with people she'd long considered enemies (and realizing that they weren't so bad after all) was obviously a serious emotional strain. But I thought it was clear that she had a grudging respect for Leia, that she empathized to some extent with Leia's own losses in life, and that she appreciated Leia making herself available if Mara wanted to talk about her past.

Really, they seemed highly compatible and sympathetic to each other in so many ways. I think that if the EU had continued in such a way that Mara and Leia were more often in contact with each other, they would have become close friends early on. Granted, once Luke and Mara became engaged, Leia and Mara

 

yes i was trying a joke and failed. apologies to all the Texans out there. (no caps because that's how small i felt after i read the responses.

Val actually gave a better equivalent of the Empire in the Nazis.

As far as Mara and Leia is portrayed in EU, they seem to act like sisters but I feel Leia never fully trusted Mara from the start. Must have been when Mara stated that she would kill Leia's brother.

 

I think Leia was so freaked out about Darth Daddy that anything that was remotely associated with him, she approached with some trepidation. I do think her love for Luke was greater than her fear of Sithiness, so if Luke was a friend of Mara's she was willing to trust his judgment. Don;t forget that Mara wasn't the easiest person to get to know, either.

I don't think they were all girly-girly like Union portrayed them, doing the spa together and all, but I feel there was a strong mutual respect.

I'd love to see them later, as Leia started to step into her Jedi role. Did Mara help her with that at all, I wonder?

 

There're a few scenes that popped into my head when thinking about Leia & Mara. One is in Specter of the Past, where Leia seems slightly wary of Mara on Wayland, thinking because Mara was once an Emperor's Hand, she may know more than she's letting on about the 'Hand of Thrawn' mentioned on the datacard they found. Though of course, by the end of VotF, Leia seems to trust and like Mara. And in the Union comics, they appear to be good friends.

There's also the part of the Corellian Trilogy, where Leia rides in Mara's ship, while Han is kidnapped. They kind of have a tenuous friendship there.

Lastly, I remember the scene in Sacrifice, where they meet for lunch. Mara is having serious thoughts about Jacen possibly being a Sith, and she's sounding out Leia on her feelings. And Mara is feeling terrible because she knows she has to stop Jacen, in order to save Ben. Here's a quote of Mara's thoughts:

'Leia was one of the few people Mara had ever truly admired. She was pretty well the only person other than Luke who Mara knew would never fall apart, however bad things got. But she still couln't bring herself to sit Leia down and give her the full catalog of Jacen's crimes.'

This tells me that Leia and Mara had a strong solid friendship. Even if we don't see alot of scenes depicting it.

 

Really? I don't get that vibe at all; never have. When Mara told her that, she did feel a ripple of shock from Leia, but Leia calmly said, "No, he didn't. May I ask why?" Leia then went on to have a rational and sympathetic conversation with Mara. When Mara reiterated her desire to kill Luke, Leia said, "Do you? Do you really?" and "From what Luke's told me, it sounds like you've already had several chances to kill him. You didn't take them." And that's when Leia rolls out her theory that Mara doesn't want to at all, but is simply being influenced by Palpatine's command. None of that is what I'd say or do to someone who told me that she was going to kill my brother, I assure you.

Then when Mara tells Leia about Wayland, Leia believes her, warns her not to speak of it for her own protection, goes to the rest of the family with a plan to get Mara the nav computer, and while she initially balks at breaking her out, her reasoning was that to do so was illegal and bordering on treason, not that Mara was untrustworthy. In fact, it was Lando who insisted that Mara's timing was too convenient, and Leia defended her. Regarding that mission, Luke does think briefly that Han and Leia probably don't want him going off alone with the woman who wanted to kill him, but even if that was what Leia thought (no absolute proof of that, since we're reading Luke's POV), it doesn't necessarily mean she distrusted Mara herself, especially after we know that Leia believes that Mara doesn't really want to kill Luke. It could easily mean that she's just afraid that Mara might not be able to resist the compulsion.

Later in TLC, Leia insists to the NR government higher ups that Mara isn't working for the Empire anymore, and that her information regarding Wayland was trustworthy. And in the final confrontation, Leia very specifically helped Mara kill C'baoth and helped Luke protect Mara's life.

I'll grant you, none of that makes them out to be BFFs. But it sure doesn't look to me like Leia actually distrusts her.

Union was pretty awful all the way around, really. But while I completely agree that neither Leia nor Mara are particularly girly-girly, I could actually see Leia insisting that Mara go to a spa to relax before her wedding. Of course, the scene was made somewhat more palatable to me by the women not just sitting around getting facials, but beating the slingball team.

I do think that Mara would help Leia when she decided to truly devote herself to becoming a Jedi, yes, just as I think that Leia would have helped Mara with motherly stuff when Ben was born. It's a shame we didn't see more of that in the EU.

I remember that scene, too, Michele, but I have to disagree that Leia seemed wary of Mara. There's a truly marvelous bit of exposition at the bottom of page 42 (paperback) where it's very strongly implied that although the NR considers both Karrde and Mara to be untrustworthy, Leia herself doesn't. And her thought about Mara knowing something about the Hand of Thrawn because she was Emperor's Hand doesn't mean that she was wary; it can easily be taken at face value that Mara held a high rank and a similar title and might be reasonably expected to know this bit of information, especia

 

I remember Leia and Mara's relationship in TTT and THT pretty much like Gabri says; Leia as very well-balanced, very perceptive and generally trusting towards Mara. I remember a slight waryness too, but I never read it as wariness towards Mara as person, more like the need to walk carefully since you respect the allegiances of the other...

The Corellian trilogy was then a different affair altogether. At some point there Mara says to Leia that neither trusts the other but they have same interests, so they should work together, or something similar. It stroke me as odd because that was so different from TTT, but then Han is portrayed as be similarly wary of Mara in that trilogy. In The New Rebellion it's downright stated that Han "would never really trust her" and "had never liked her much" either. Leia's POV is never mentioned. But since none of this made sense any to me I always dismissed is as the authors delusions... - and kept to my idea similar to TTT.

In The Joiner King however, there's a funny exchange between Ben and Marawhen Mara's found out her son has smuggled a bug with the on the ship and wants to kill it:
"Gogog's no assassin!" Ben said. "She's my best friend."
"She's an insect, Ben."
"So? Your best friend is a lizard."
"Don't be ridiculous." Mara rose and pushed him behind her. "Aunt Leia is my best friend."
"Doesn't count," Ben said. "She's family. Saba is a lizard."
"Okay, maybe my best friend's a lizard." (p. 302 )

I like this exchange so much partly because I liked the idea of Mara and Saba (two pedators) being friends, but also because it states straightout that Leia and Mara are so close that calling them anything but best friends would be ridiculous.

Off course, we still lack to see those scenes of them together! On the other hand I can't say we see much "normal" interaction between Luke, Han and Leia either; they are splitted up most of the time and catastrophe is always just behind the corner. Welcome to the EU!

 

This may sound strange since I love the idea of Mara and Leia being friends, but I actually didn't like that scene. I don't know, I haven't read those books since they came out, but reading that small snippet, it just didn't sit right with me (same with most of the DN trilogy, but that's a separate issue.) I wonder if it's because I just can't see Mara naming Leia as her best friend. Not that Leia couldn't be her closest female friend, which I strongly feel she is, but I think it's probably because I think she would answer that Luke is her best friend. I guess I can see it going both ways. I usually tell people that my husband is my best friend, but when I know they're talking about best friend of the same sex (which most people tend to assume) I tell them them the name of my maid of honor. Still, I get the feeling that Mara would tell Ben that Luke is her best friend because that's the truth.

And I guess my other problem with that passage is that I never thought of Mara and Saba as great friends. It's been so long since I read the NJO, but I don't remember Mara being closer to her than she was to any other random Jedi. I remember thinking "huh, that kind of came out of nowhere." So while I'm glad that Mara was acknowledging her friendship with Leia, I honestly think she would have said Luke, and I also honestly think she would have told Ben that it doesn't matter if a person is family - they still count if they're your best friend. It doesn't seem like Mara would gloss over that, given how for the first twenty-something years of her life she didn't have a family or friends. And I (mostly) don't mind Mara and Saba being friends - I just don't think they were close enough to warrant Ben's comments.

I agree with Gabri on this one. What I really loved about that whole exchange was how calm Leia was. It really showcased her personality and her diplomatic skills nicely. If Mara didn't already respect Leia, she must have started to here. She may not have realized it until later, but that was such a strong moment for Leia that I imagine it must have formed the basis for Mara's respect. I also loved that Luke and Leia are both capable of getting under Mara's skin. They both question her assumptions about the Empire and Palpatine. They both get a good read on her and who she really is underneath the training and the lies that were fed to her. And they both respect that she's an intelligent woman - they don't act as though she's an idiot for believing the Empire was right.

So yeah, I think that's one of the th

 

we need a challenge to bring LIFE back to this thread. Who cares about OFFICIAL canon? FANON is better!

 

I really don't want to get into this argument again, Liz. I'm not a big fan of the latest canon offerings myself, but I do not believe that fanon is automatically better, and neither do many other Mara fans. And I say this as an avid fanfic reader and writer. I'm not bashing fanon or fan activities. But to go around shouting things like "FANON is better!" only creates divides among fans, not revives threads. How about everyone respectfully accept that there are going to be different views on this (and probably all other matters), and if we want to revive a thread, we do so with discussion topics or suggested activities rather than rallying cries against a huge part of fandom in which many fans still participate?

 

Ok, I'm not entering a discussion again that I'll just have to keep defending. I've typed my fingers off in here since '07 defending why I've banned all profic. Frankly, I'm tired of defending my opinion. But that's the point; it's my opinion. It's right for me but maybe not for the next person.

I am not one of those who in expressing opinions confine themselves to facts.
-Mark Twain

If we keep defending our opinion over and over this thread would be endless, like some threads I've encountered.


So, having said that (with Mr. Twain's help), let us move on.

I don't know how or where to post challenges but I thought of one concerning Mara. I call it the Action Not Words Mara Challenge. Show Mara in any situation in any era that she has to get out of. The trick is you cannot use any dialogue. There can be her inner dialogue but no words can be spoken. Maybe someone else can tweak it a bit. I'm not good at setting these up. Sound like fun?

 

By all means, let us move on - right after one thing is clarified here.

Opinions can be discussed - or not - in a respectful manner. That's what I'm asking for here. In fact, it's kind of what I'm going to be annoying and insist on. To come in and say "Who cares about OFFICIAL canon? FANON is better!" immediately following a dicussion of canon matters to which a number of people put considerable time and thought into is disrespectful.

You are welcome to disregard canon. Anyone who wishes to may do so. But the point I've been trying to make for at least as long as you've been telling us why you ditched canon is that those of us who might still read and enjoy portions of the EU are not a threat to those who choose not to. Disagreement is not hostility; it is not a personal attack. That's really the thing: You have no need to defend your opinion. I have no need to defend mine. So what if we don't agree on everything? What discussion could there possibly be if everyone agreed on everything? But when discussion descends into disrespect, divisiveness, and dismissal of the opinions of others, there's a problem.

Discussion is great. Thread activity is great. But let's all try to do it in a respectful manner, even when fellow posters disagree with us. Thank you for listening.

 

Well said. We've had pro-canon and anti-canon enthusiasts in this thread for years and it's never meant that we can't get along and have discussions - it just means we have different preferences. Mara is an awesome character in profic AND/OR fanfic and that's why we're here.


For anyone reading the Invasion comic: Mara will be in #4 next month. SQUEEEEE!!!

 

Oooh. I'm trade-waiting on the series, but I think I'll have to flip through that one in the store.

 

Speaking of, the preview is up!

Linky

Guess who's on the last page

 

That's a pretty good preview. I'm not 100% sold on the art, but then, outside of Jan Duursema's work, I rarely am. Mara's not bad overall, but she'd never wear giant earrings like that outside of some formal occasion. Her entire outfit looks rather formal, actually. What's up with that? And please, no more Stackpole-esque addressing of Luke as "husband." Oy.

 

Actually, that's Leia with the white thing on her head. (Luke addresses her on the first page of the preview.) Jaina's in the pilot's seat, Jacen's behind her and Anakin is behind Lowie. (Sweet to hear Lowie talking about his uncle Chewie.) The guy with the goggles is one of the new protagonists, Finn Galfridian. He's new at the Jedi academy and has a bit of a crush on Jaina. I'm just waiting for the Jaina/Finn fics, LOL.

 

Yes, and Leia's headgear is kind of ridiculous, too. But look at those big yellow baubles hanging from Mara's ears on page four. And while I think I like her dress, it doesn't seem very everyday-wear-ish, at least not for Mara. I do like seeing Leia and the kids together, though.

 

Okay, ignore me. I thought y'all were talking about page 3. Didn't even realize there was a page 4, since the previews usually only have 3. [face_doh]

So yeah, Mara! Well...least it's not the catsuit. I'm wondering about her comment about their future son. If they make her pregnant this soon in the timeline, the continuity buffs heads will explode, LOL.

 

That right there would make a mistimed pregnancy worthwhile. Oh, the angst that would ensue. But the comment was definitely in character for Mara regardless. Story-wise, I think the preview looks promising. Art-wise - well, I've definitely seen worse. But oh, if we could only clone Jan.

 

I haven't read any of the Invasion comics yet, but don't know if I can hold off until the trade paperback, like Gabri. I did check out the preview.

I agree that the artwork isn't as good as Jan's, but I'm glad just to see a comic with all the old regulars (my favorites!). Besides the non-Mara-esque clothing, I didn't think she looked ill at all, if this is supposed to be when her disease is at its worst. And the 'future son' comment just seemed like wishful thinking on their part.

 

Some of the speculation (read: potential hysteria) in Lit comes from the letter column at the back of issue #3 that states:

"and we'll get a first peek of Luke's wife, Mara Jade, and a little, eentsy, baby peek of someone else as well..."

Let the fanboy flailing fall where it may.

 

Maybe a vision? That would be a "peek".

 

Her last sentence was rather ominous, but it does seem like something Mara would say. I agree with the bright dress and earrings not in Mara's style. And is it just me, or does her face seem more chiseled than it should be in the last panel? Either way, it's still great to see Mara in comics again.

 

Just felt left out so I posted this.