ST Mark Hamill (Luke Skywalker) In Episode IX

It's worth considering that the Force projections between Rey and Kylo largely exist solely between the two of them (aside from Snoke who initiated the bridge, and Luke discovering Kylo in the hut later on). Whereas Luke pulled off his projection on Crait in the presence of everyone remaining from the Resistance and the First Order. That strikes me as unprecedented.

 

I think creating a Force projection between two people requires far less effort than achieving one on a battlefield in front of hundreds.

 

The bit with the rain on Kylo's face is interesting, in light of the fact that nothing similar happens to Luke.
Is this meant to imply that the Force is stronger with Rey and Kylo than it is with Luke?

 

Well, I believe it was snoke who actually Made the force Skypes happen, , so if it has that kind of meaning, it would be that snoke is more powerful than Luke, I think.

 

Why not?

 

Sure, I think it's fair that there could have been more of a distinction in the relationship between Rey and Kylo's Skyping and Luke's projection, but it's also pretty clear to me that the latter involved a greater mastery of the Force.

 

Of course there's room for improvement. But it's not that either one utterly hates the film and has a serious issue with almost everything in it, or that one simply loves the film and sees it as flawless.

 

I definitely think there was room for more creative clarity. I just think think it's disingenuous for people to keep pretending they are the same ability when they are evidently meant to be different, only not made very clear in the film.

 

No one is being disingenuous. It doesn’t matter if they were MEANT to be different, if they don’t look different in the film, it doesn’t work. This was not just a little detail in this film. This was important. By NOT looking different, it made it very hard to believe that a powerful Jedi master would die from something that snoke was doing over and over again with Kylo and Rey without him or them breaking a sweat. It didn’t work for a lot of us that THIS silly projection, which seemed so similar to the force Skyping...was what killed Luke Skywalker. It was lame and unbelievable, and EXTREMELY unsatisfying.

Beyond that, this was supposed to be Luke’s big moment. It was supposed to make up for how low they took the character; for having him be the catalyst that started Kylo on the road to villainy; for running away instead of trying to turn Kylo and the other students back to the light and confronting snoke; for doing nothing for six years while the galaxy fell to the first order; for being defeated by rey; for being humiliated in that space cow scene and with yoda. This was supposed to be Luke’s redemption. But I found the force projection to be far too little and too unimpressive to make up for all of Luke’s mistakes. THEN, to have that lame projection KILL Luke, while Kylo and Rey and snoke suffered no consequences at all with a skill that seemed remarkably the same as the force projection, was ridiculous as well as annoying.

 

I said that it was disingenuous to specifically suggest that what Luke did and what Kylo and Rey were doing were the same thing, only Luke died from it and they didn't. While the film admittedly makes it unnecessarily confusing, it is apparent they are separate abilities. From what I can gather you're saying that the similarity between the two abilities undercut Luke's moment at the end, and while they are technically different, they seemed identical at first glance. That's a reasonable position to take on the matter, but not what I was addressing, which begs the question why you arched up?

 

Need more than 2 min on that - the art of milking a sea cow is very intricate

 

This is such a disingenuous argument.

You know that Luke had access to at least Yoda, Obi Wan, and possibly Anakin in their Force Ghost forms.
You know that Force Ghosts continue to accumulate knowledge from beyond.
You know that 30 years of time has spanned between ROTJ and TFA.
You know that Luke has access to the original Jedi texts.
You know other Force users exist beyond the Jedi.
You know Luke is strong with the Force.

And you're going to argue, just for the sake of hating a film, as usual, that Luke can't have learned new things about the Force because he didn't finish his training at 22?

Yet, simultaneously, you also have spent YEARS complaining that Luke didn't pass on what he's learned. So, after all these years, you're arguing that Luke really didn't have anything to pass on since we didn't see him train all that much in the OT?

If the scope of what Luke's learned can basically be summed up by what Maz Kanata knows, what have you spent the last 3 years lamenting? According to you new, shiny "they ruined Luke" argument Luke didn't really have anything to teach anyway.

George Lucas begs to differ:

YODA: Master Kenobi, wait a moment. In your solitude on Tatooine, training I have for you.

OBI-WAN: Training?

YODA: An old friend has learned the path to immortality. One who has returned from the netherworld of the Force. . .your old Master.

OBI-WAN: Qui-Gon!

YODA: How to commune with him I will teach you.

 

A drop of rain (that you assume is matter) appears on Kylo's face.

Meanwhile Luke projected a replica of Han's dice, that he left with Leia, that she left behind, that was still around for Kylo to pick up by the time everyone escaped, and the clincher, that was still projected even after Luke passed on.

Yeah, a drop of water is totes stronger.

The Skype sessions and Luke's projection aren't presented as the same thing.

Kylo thinks that Rey is projecting, but figures out quickly that "this is something else". Why? Because he can't see her surroundings. He differentiates between Force projection and what's happening between them during the very first Skype session. It's literally right there in the script 45 minutes into the film.

We see Kylo and Rey interact with each other in very minor ways. They "see" each other, but even that is limited. When Rey first fires her blaster at Kylo it doesn't go "through" him, she's sitting there looking at a blank wall. He can't even see her surroundings. A small "touch" of the fingers is major breakthrough.

We learn later that Snoke merely "bridged their minds". Snoke, a powerful Force user, is using two other very powerful Force users in a way that taps into everyone's power, but that's really isolated to these individuals. Impressive, but it takes three strong Force users to essentially set up a more advanced version of what Luke and Leia already had back in Empire (and display again in TLJ).

Luke is on a whole other level of impressive. He, in different appearance, projects his image to dozens of people. Clear, strong, and real enough that he fools his own Force strong sister (at first), his own Force strong nephew, dozens of people, and a droid. He isn't merely connected with Leia (which we've seen already), his entire personage is manifest for all to see. It's an incredible feat that is vastly beyond what we saw with Rey and Kylo.

And Kylo tells you that before we ever see Luke perform the task.

I get legit complains when the film doesn't bother explaining something. I don't get the film explaining something, and then complaining that the film didn't explain something.

 

Visualky, it looks very very similar. The distinction in how it plays out in the movie is IMO miniscule. If it really were that super-obvious, there wouldn't be debate about it in the first place. If the final force projection on Crait were on a scale as visually impressive as taking the full force of a star bodily - and not dying as dramatic pay-off to "that will kill you" - then IMO noone would really call it weak or lame either.

Instead it is a sequence that runs the gammut of reactions between "wow, that was an amazing feat" and "meh, totally lame". Meaning if the scene was meant to go for the former, its success rate is so-so. It is what it is. My two theater experiences were muted in it. Interestingly enough in my first theater experience the seemingly withstanding the blaster barrage got some slight cheers but the projection reveal dampened the excitement again to groans. People just weren't into it that much. Especially when the non-fight happened.

 

With a fanbase that argues over even the most mundane of details, no, the presence of debate isn't indicative of anything.

Yeah, yeah, magically every hater sat in groaning or dead audiences, and every gusher experienced standing ovations. Rinse, repeat.

 

I have not seen a single person say the Thor scene in IW looked weak or made the character seem unimpressive. No idea how that would even be possible. So yes, I believe the existance of debate here means something, no matter how many little details usually are debated.

I didn't say my audience was full of haters. I even specifically said there were some cheers one moment and groans the next. Just because people weren't into the force projection thing doesn't necessarily mean they disliked the movie. My best friend loved the movie and still thought Luke was a pathetic loser all the way through.

What IS undebatable is that Crait!Luke worked for some people and didn't for others. Easy as that.

 

The Force Skype is the evolution of the connection that exists between Luke and Leia in ESB, when they can communicate with each other. This is not perceived as Luke or Leia being super powerful but the connection that links them. Same thing goes with Kylo and Rey. Their minds got linked, so they can see each other.

Had Palpatine spoken to the entire Endor at the end of ROTJ while he was in the DS, and fans would have believed he was so powerful. Yet, Luke appears to an entire group of people, projects and image of himself that belong to the past, and people think it is less impressive than the Force Skype.

I just read this as fans critisizing it cause it is not what they wanted to happen.

 

I agree with what you're saying. Clearly what Snoke pulled off with the force Skyping between Rey and Kylo is not the same thing as what Luke does with the force projection. Kylo even makes a comment early in the movie about how Rey couldn't be the one doing it, or it would kill her. It's almost as if people didn't watch the movie.

Anyways, why are people on here desperately looking for plot holes that aren't in TLJ and doing nothing but complain? Isn't this supposed to be a conversation about Luke in 9?

 

Yes, this! Agree 100%. Anyway, about Luke in 9...

 

Luke didn’t seem to communicate with yoda, obiwan, or his father. It really seemed like Luke hadn’t seen yoda since Endor from their interactions on Ahch-to. Certainly, if the force ghosts were giving him advice, he wouldn’t have been sneaking into his nephew’s room in the middle of the night. Yoda would have given him better advice than that.

Even if it turns out that Luke CAN train Rey after death, what’s the point? She already downloaded everything from Kylo. She doesn’t need training. She already knows everything. They had her learn that way to make Luke superfluous, so they could kill him, saying she has all she needs.

Yes, Luke probably learned some more things about the force on his own and during his travels, but much of the Jedi knowledge was destroyed. My particular problem with the idea that Luke learned about the force projection is that it’s a skill that makes no sense. No matter what one reads or hears, one needs to practice to learn to use a new skill. Now if, as Ryan Johnson wants us to believe, force projection ALWAYS kills the one who performs the projection, how would anyone be able to practice thIs skill in order to know how to use it when the need arises? Even more than that, how did the first Jedi who learned to do this skill even pass on the knowledge of how to do it to anyone else for future use, if he/she died performing it? That this use of the force always kill the user, makes absolutely no sense, and using this form of death for Luke Skywalker is ridiculous and unsatisfying. Luke died because he used the force. Just no....

 

Go complain in TLJ forum.

 

I agree that the water on Kylo's face messes with the consistency. I think they could have done without that.