ST Mark Hamill (Luke Skywalker) In Episode IX

Luke will speak to somebody; either in flashbacks or as a Force Ghost. It’s the last film, until a new Planet Killer is designed to begin the fourth trilogy; by which time we’ll all know how to become Force Ghosts! He’ll have his say in IX.

 

Just to riff off of something touched on in another thread I think that when JJ Abrams decided to put Luke on Ahch-To it was because JJ liked the idea that Luke had turned his back on everything and given up. I don’t think Rian Johnson changed why Luke was on that island by himself.

And if that was JJ’s idea then he must have assumed that in TLJ Luke wouldn’t want to train Rey which is what Rian Johnson did in fact do.

All that’s to say that since Luke and Rey’s story in TLJ went in the direction JJ assumed it would go then it that seems to suggest that JJ will be able to finish Rey and Luke’s story the way he had imagined it would go.

 

It has been suggested on another thread that while JJ probably envisioned Luke having given up on the fight after Kylo's turn, the idea that Luke "closed himself off from the force" was RJ's.

And that happens to be one of my biggest gripes about the film personally.
Luke takes "(his) first step into a larger world" in ANH ... then ... steps back?

Having said that I don't think it will hurt EpIX particularly. With sequels compared to prequels things are pretty loose with where the story can go.

Of course, Luke being technically dead is a downer. But it's SW, there is still opportunity to do something epic with him. JJ isn't dim enough to not go all out.

 

One thing I've been trying to get my head round is the similarity between Yoda's exile and Luke's.

OK, Yoda's was forced upon him by overwhelming numbers/defeat whereas Luke's seems more self-imposed. Nevertheless, they both retired from the conflict, they both behave in a weird way initially to undermine the pre-conceptions of the protagonist, before they both reveal a master plan that would "save the galaxy".

In Yoda's case he did nothing to return to the conflict except act through Luke, but in Luke's case he did return but without changing his mind - ie. He inflicted a humilating defeat against Kylo/FO without sacrificing his reasons for exile. Luke doesn't fade away like Yoda.

I anticipate Luke (and Yoda maybe) will be back in Ep.IX to pass on the wisdom they learnt through their "failure" and failings, and be more explicit about being at ease with being surpassed by the next generation. He may also talk more of solitude and "being mindful" rather than searching for saviours. While also bringing some levity and humour as wise people do in dark times.

If that's the case, Mark Hamill may feel a whole lot better about Luke's fate in TLJ. I hope.

 

Really think there's way too much being made of this supposed narrative daylight between Abrams and Johnson. The details, the small stuff, absolutely - they had their own ideas, and Rian made a request to alter something at the end of TLJ. But that's all details, not big picture. Pretty sure Abrams was envisioning Luke in this despondend Debbie-Downer vibe too, given his reaction to Rey at the end of his film.

Maybe Rian took it further, we don't really know, may not ever know. All we have to go on is that J.J. loved the TLJ script, "wishes he were directing it", directing that script. Rian's script. But pretty sure they were in the same general ballpark with Luke as a crotchety old cynical geezer who felt big-picture-wise the Jedi have done more harm than good.

 

I find it really strange that people complain about RJ's take on Luke in TLJ. After TFA what other reason for Luke being away from the fight could he of come up with? Was he on holiday or something? how would that of gone down with the fan base I wonder. RJ was cornered into what Luke's reason's were for disappearing because there really are not any other plausible reasons.

Thats why I believe it was always part of the over arching story put together by JJ & LK who were working off GL original ideas. To think otherwise is just silly regardless of what has been said. I have no doubt RJ had a lot of license but he was clearly working within a story arc for the 3 films.

 

I was roundly mocked on here for suggesting it lol, but I honestly think that a much better storyline and reason for Luke’s presence on Ach-To would have been to explore Han’s suggestion in TFA that Luke “went looking for the first Jedi temple”

In my head canon, Luke and Rey would have gone looking for it together, with Rey learning about the Force on the way. The temple would have held the secrets to the ultimate Jedi power and that is what Kylo was so desperate to find, not Luke.

The ultimate Jedi power would be that they would have the ability to become the “luminous beings” at will, able to become one with the Force and back again. Not only use the Force to see other places, but to be other places, almost like an intergalactic teleport.

 

He still would of been ignoring the First Order. At the end of the day Han told us the guts of it in TFA so RJ has followed a path set out by JJA. Which lends more credence that it was indeed a planned plot line (regardless of whether you agree with it or not)

 

I know, but I imagined a plot where he had to find the temple first to get to whatever power or secret was there before Kylo did. That would have been a good reason to be there on Ach To as a priority instead of fighting The First Order.

It’s a kind of a Raiders of the Lost Ark plot really, get to the power before the baddies do. That sort of thing.

 

Yeah, frankly upon seeing TFA I was thinking more along the lines of "Luke's doing research, isolating himself like a monk to try to get to the core of what the Jedi were supposed to be thousands of years before the events of Yoda/Mace & Sidious" too.

But that doesn't necessarily mean that's where Abrams was going with it, there's nothing really hinting at that. Luke, as presented in TLJ, did seek out the first/original Jedi location. Just like Han said in TFA. The motivations are never really presented in TFA, and his mood/demeanor in the final scene is pretty damn consistent with how he's presented in TLJ.

We don't know how much they talked it over together beforehand, but in an intellectual sense it doesn't seem like there's jack supporting the idea that Abrams wasn't on the same page as where Rian took it. Only that Rian made a small request to alter something in a single scene, the final scene, of TFA to better mesh with what he was going to do. Which is detail rather than overall story arc. Pretty sure there was a broad agreed-upon plan with the big-picture stuff regarding Luke, the general "fall from grace" & cynicism stuff. Just plain narratively that makes perfect sense to have our sequel-hero Rey be the one who has to bring him out of that funk anyway, if it's as simple as "same old Luke, he's just abandoned everyone for a half-decade to go read some books in private and nothing more", that's pretty weaksauce in a story sense.

 

On a side note it does seem odd to me that Yoda gave up the fight while countless far less powerful people continued to soldier onward. Yes the Empire dominated the galaxy but that didn't stop the average Joe and Jane from taking up arms and fighting the Empire. Yoda didn't even try. He just gave up.

@Aximili86 I totally agree with you. If JJ didn't want Luke to be a Debbie Downer he wouldn't have introduced the idea that Luke blamed himself for Kylo's fall and the destruction of his school and he wouldn't have made Luke vanish, making it difficult for the Resistance to find him, and he wouldn't have ended TFA with Luke standing on a cliff staring cold and speechless at Rey.

I think if Abrams had a radically different idea of Luke than what we saw in TLJ we would've seen some evidence of that in TFA and yet we didn't. That to me suggests that the Rey and Luke story is following some sort of general plan that was thought up from the beginning which gives me a little hope that their story will have a meaningful and satisfying ending.

@Skillzwalker I also agree. Would it have made sense if in TLJ we found that Luke cut himself off from the Resistance and his sister during their darkest hour because he was...I don't even know...secretly training a bunch of Jedi but for some bizarre reason he didn't even tell his sister about it. Or maybe he's been preoccupied with trying to find some sort of Jedi hocus pocus to used to defeat the First Order...except that doesn't make sense when you consider that the Resistance have done a good job using good old technology to win major victories against the FO. Nothing short of, "I gave up" would've explained why Luke hadn't been heard of for apparently a very long time.

@Bob Effette The thing about that though is that Luke disappeared years ago, not long after the incident at the hut between him and Ben. So...Luke's been looking for this temple for years? The whole galaxy is being taken over by the First Order and Luke's all, "I can't help you out now. I'm looking for the Jedi Temple and after I find the Jedi Temple THEN I'll help you out!" Terrible idea Luke!

 

It is really easy to write another scenario that wasn`t Loser!Luke. And I could think of ten scenarios that would have been completely plausible to me whereas TLJ!Luke did not make any sense to me. So to me this claim is a fallacy. Yes, TFA boxed in the story somewhat but nowhere near to the degree of making only TLJ possible.

If Luke is guarding something powerful and needs all his energy to do that, if it is something that also mentally messes with him and makes him a little crazy, you have a) a reasonable explanation on why he hasn`t shown up to fight, b) still make him proactive and c) even have the opportunity to present an "out there" Luke at first. You can even keep the story mainly as is if he doesn`t/can`t explain himself to Rey and she is put off by this, then at the end Luke decides to do the projection but because he is now splitting his force energy between his previous duty and the projection that actually looks powerful and it provides a good reason for why he can`t survive it. At the end both Kylo and Rey sense this new power source and go for episode 9.

Two thirds of the story is over and to me Luke`s story is over with no chance of a meaningful, let alone satisfying ending unless threy throw in some super-weird curve ball where his conscience time-travels back to the beginning of the Jedi Order and he is the one who sets it up and gets THAT as a legacy instead of the new one like you would think after ROTJ.

Short of that, there is really nothing they could do since he isn`t the main character in episode 9 and therefore won`t have the story time to get back to being a meaningful hero. I doubt there is going to be an important force ghost plot in the force ghost realm that allows him a big heroic act. Crait was supposed to be it, if it worked for people or not.

Also, I highly doubt he gets a retcon offspring. That ship has sailed.

I fear exactly this is gonna happen, to me a horrific scenario but highly likely. Dump some more on the old generation to sell the new ones as "stronger, smarter, better". For extra humiliation, now the old generation has to be the mouthpiece that does it. Of course, I wouldn`t buy any wisdom out of Luke after TLJ anyway. This guy was anything but wise and dignified. At least Yoda was that back in the day.

 

I'm of two minds when it comes to what role Luke would play in Ep. IX. The pessimist in me thinks it's going to more or less be a retread of Obi-Wan in ROTJ in that Luke shows up and has a conversation with Rey and then leaves and that's it. This I fear is also the most likely scenario.

On the other hand it could be more than that because as far as I can tell there isn't much that Luke needs to tell Rey that she couldn't learn on her own or from somebody else. I'd argue that ROTJ did need to confirm that Vader was telling the truth about being Luke's father. With Ep. IX however if Rey really is a rando and Rey already knows that deep down inside, (as it was written in the TLJ novelization) then Luke doesn't need to be the one to confirm that Rey's parents were nobodies. Rey could simply have a conversation with Finn where she recounts what Kylo told her. They could really underline the point in a meta way by having Finn say, "Rey you can't believe that guy. He's a known liar!" And then Rey could say, "though that is true I remember my parents now and Kylo was right."

Sooooooo if we don't need Luke to confirm Rey's rando-ness then what would he need to talk to Rey about? As I've said before maybe Kylo's rando speech got into Rey's head and she needs Luke to give her a talk in order for her to get back on her game. Again Luke doesn't need to be the one to tell her this. Finn could. Heck I could see Rose giving that talk to Rey.

I don't know...maybe Luke will come back at a time when Rey is planning on killing Kylo and Luke comes back to tell her not to do it because killing Kylo will break her own spirit?

 

That is equally something that he would not be needed for. The only thing he could do is present himself as a cautionary tale and she already knows that story, it was her impetus for going all "Beeeeeennnnnn" and wanting to save him. Beyond that, that`s a convo suited for someone the protagonist is close to and Luke and Rey have as much a relationship as a fish and bicycle.

He is no character to train her because she was already better than him in TLJ and but because she needs no training to be better anyway and he is no character to give emotional advice because they have no relationship - it was one of Daisy Ridley`s weakest performance moment when Rey was supposed to "react" to Luke`s death with emotional gravitas, and I can`t blame her, there was no relationship to draw on and she doesn`t have the acting experience to make that up regardless - and because he is in no position to give anyone advice on anything.

Those characters are ill-suited for interaction in episode 9. Meanwhile, he had his closure scene with Kylo so going "boo" as a force ghost here and there seems redundant. If Leia was still around, she might be a character Luke could interact with but not with using stock footage of her from TFA obviously.

I do think, knowing JJ, he will go the copy-cat Obi Wan cameo from ROTJ route. Only in this case completely pointless and not even fun. He might also try to give the character a badass scene as fanservice in which case, I think JJ can do "badass" a lot better than RJ but realistically, how important could such a scene be? Luke is not the main character. If he were, I think JJ could turn the ship around and undo the TLJ damage but this is not the movie for it.

 

Exactly. While it's easy enough to find holes in Luke's decision to put himself in exile, at least we were given more justification for it than we ever got for Yoda's decision to do the same thing. A large part of TLJ was spent explaining Luke's decision. ESB offered no explanation for Yoda's decision, and ROTS only gave us "Into exile I must go. Failed I have."

 

I am not sure where this whole idea that TFA Luke and TLJ are pretty much almost the same, stems from.

1. TFA Luke has gone to Ahch-To to find the first ever Jedi Temple, in a quest to learn as much as possible about The Force, hopefully finding a way to help the galaxy. TLJ Luke is depressed, wants to burn down the temple but hesitates (only for the temple to be destroyed by Force Ghost Yoda as if Force Ghost can now burn everything to the ground apparently), and says that there is nothing even worth mentioning in the ancient Jedi books, while blaming the Jedi for everything bad.

2. If there is nothing of value in the ancient Jedi books, TFA Luke (the one on the quest), would have to return to save his friends, or go make a family, or go to another planet to find other ancient Jedi knowledge perhaps, and continue his quest. Or, you know, do anything other than to remain on Ahch-To. TLJ Luke is there and intends to stay and milk alien space cows until he dies.

3. TFA Luke may have played a role in Ben Solo's development, but according to the film, Kylo Ren has too much of Darth Vader in him, and Snoke has poisoned his heart. TLJ Luke is shown as the sole reason why Ben Solo took a turn and became a space nazi, with a mission to kill everything and anything, except from Rey who he loves and wants her to join him.

4. TFA Luke takes the lightsaber from Rey, and there is literally tears on his eyes from the emotion (what emotion? We will never know). TLJ Luke throws the lightsaber over his shoulder for a cheap humorous moment and a cheap subversion of expectations.

5. And finally and most importantly, TFA Luke was supposed to be as powerful as ever with The Force, levitating tons of rocks around him, in an impressive demonstration of his power in The Force. TLJ Luke has withdrawn himself from The Force, and it is even unable to sense him in The Force. And the scene was cut from the final draft, because TLJ Luke would not have been consistent.

My hope is that JJ will bring back Luke Skywalker as a Force Ghost for as much screen time as possible, and give him some of the most memorable and powerful quotes in his presence throughout the entire saga. I really hope we don't see Force Ghost Luke burning stuff down or doing even crazier things from "beyond the grave" though, like we did with Yoda in TLJ. I just want to see this character be as inspirational and powerful as he can via the Force Ghost method, because it would be an understatement to say that his entire presence in TLJ left me disappointed.

There's really nothing too complicated about Yoda in ESB and ROTS. He went in exile to:
1. Train and learn how to achieve immortality
2. Survive, by staying hidden in a Force nexus planet where the Empire couldn't find him
3. Wait patiently until Luke and Leia were older, to guide them through one last stand against the Empire.

How do any of those seem as "no explanation" of why he went to exile? Was he supposed to stay in one of the core worlds and wait until they find him and kill him? It is a flawless explanation if you ask me, and arguably, the only choice Yoda had. George Lucas is a master in storytelling, and that's one more thing he did masterfully.

 

When you put it this way, I can’t help but think that Luke was inspired by Yoda to do the same when he felt he had failed (for the wrong reasons). I really like the connection since it demonstrates taking inspiration from those you admire in the wrong way (similar to Kylo Ren/ Darth Vader). To emulate someone, you don’t necessarily just copy their actions, but learn from their failures. This is something TLJ expresses beautifully, IMO.

 

I don't think the issue is explanation, for me (Yoda and Obi-Wan had already concocted a plan - nuff said). It's more a comparison.

Luke ended up being better than Yoda (to me) for his return from exile and actions on Crait without compromising on his reasons for exile. That's a stroke of genius and sheer will (and Force ability) that no-one else has shown! It makes him even more heroic for sacrificing himself.

There's a lot of "I hate Luke's characterisation" - and I was knocked a little by how it was done - but I think that there are elements that show he is being given a treatment which moves him forward too.

 

Totally agree with this.

 

He died from it so it`s not particularly impressive anyway, to me at least. And since he had planned on doing nothing but waiting to die on that island, might as well hurry it up while doing one little bit. The Rogue One crew was heroic to me, Luke in TLJ not at all.

Which is why, if they maintain any kind of consistency with that movie, the Force Ghost in 9 could not be heroic, wise, powerful or impressive because then it would look like a completely different character. Including Crait.

 

We can agree to disagree then. Yoda did not compromise anything, how is this even a claim?

I see nothing heroic in TLJ Luke, and definitely nothing genius about it. First of all, I do not see anything heroic in his decision to go into exile, which was a choice and not forced upon him (like with Yoda), and I see nothing heroic in his sacrifice, because his sacrifice just doesn't make sense to me, and is a cop out so that RJ gets all the credit of being the one to portray Luke's death on screen.

Also, isn't the whole point of Luke Force projecting on Crait that he was wrong, and that Rey and Yoda made him realize that he was wrong for being in exile for all of these years? Luke's reasons for his exile were just not good enough, and he figured out that he was wrong in the end, that's why he actually tried to make a difference with his diversion.

 

Rogue One crew were heroic for sure.

In reference to Luke, I'm meaning this version of "hero"-ic...

http://www.dopeame.com/blog/2016/5/16/the-heros-journey

(BTW: I don't have any affiliation with the above website - but the image is helpful).

 

Unfortunately, that doesn`t work for me if I don`t see a character as heroic or, heck, even remotely likeable. Then of course I`m not interested in any stages of hero`s journey for them. The character was dead to me in TLJ long before he died in the movie.

At this point, the only thing that can be done with the character in ep 9 is an epilogue. It will probably be more than one cameo and JJ will try to make it "fan-servic-y" in a certain way but he is more or less boxed in by who the story is about, what that story logic demands and the state everything is in right now. There is not too much he can make from that concerning Luke.

I reckon it will be safe and it will work for everyone who liked or was okay with TLJ-Luke and it will do absolutely nothing for all those who hated TLJ-Luke. In other words, episode 9 will not make things worse but will also not change the status quo.

 

Fair enough.

You should never meet your heroes because they're sure to disappoint.

Let's agree to disagree as you say. Until we see the film and how Luke is actually portrayed. (Then I'll eat humble pie).

 

And that's something I have always found pretty much as false a saying as it can be.

My heroes are my parents, my sister, my friends, my girlfriend and a selection of public persons that I admire for what they are, and not for what they appear to be. And while none of them are perfect, I can assure you that none of them have or will disappoint me, based on my expectations from them, and the fact that I know what kind of people they are. I really do not need to see a hero or a role model broken down to their knees, go through depression, and abandon everything and anything they stood for, so that they can rise up from the ashes. And if I do, I certainly don't hold them in as high esteem as I hold the ones that do NOT abandon anyone, the ones that are ALWAYS there, and the ones that have risen above themselves without having to first burn down to the ground.

The story of the phoenix is romantic and worthy of making an emotional and good story, but it doesn't mean it's necessary. The magic of Luke Skywalker had always been that he was always present, always ready to be the rebel, the fighter, the hand that helps. Not the one to withdraw. I accept that this TLJ storyline for Luke is appealing to many people for one or the other reason, but I really don't have to see it their way, and quite honestly I cannot even begin to understand how there is a single person on this planet that is 100% sastisfied with TLJ Luke, but to each their own obviously.

Regarding the future.... I try to be as optimistic as possible and hope that somehow IX will redeem Luke Skywalker in the eyes of the viewers as much as possible, it's just that my logic doesn't give a lot of room for that, given his development and ending in VIII.