ST Mark Hamill (Luke Skywalker) in the ST

I think the way he appeared and the way he conducted himself, clearlt meant he intended it to be a moment of example to others.

I never said I was trying to prove anything to you. I have a different perspective on the matter. I was merely showing how your claim that he definitely didn't intend it is open to interpretation.

 

You win the internet lmao

 

To be honest, I straight up HATED, yes, HATED Luke's mocking

I say it again, hated it.

Not because Kylo did not deserve it, the guy's evil AND pathetic

Not because it wasn't in TLJ's Luke's character, he relentlessly mocked Rey almost 24/7

Not because an unrelated dude mocked another unrelated dude in a unrelated situation 6 movies before


but because the narrative of the movie let us to believe he was the one responsible for creating Kylo Ren and was suposse to feel guilty about it

So first he " created Kylo Ren " and then he proceeds to take the piss out of him, damn Luke.. damn
Unearned imo. the last guy on this Earth who should have felt entitled to mock him

And his " I'm sorry Ben " lost all meaning after that to me


Kylo: " did you come back to say you forgive me? To save my soul? "

Luke: " nah " ;p

Seriously

how about: " I wish I still could "? Or " that's not in my power anymore " something like that?

But no, forcing a Marvelesque laughter is narratively better

 

That's only true if you believe that Luke is truly responsible for Kylo falling to the dark side, which I don't buy.

 

Me neither, but the movie kept telling me so

I do think Luke receives part of the blame for sure, but only because I don't know what Kylo's relationship was with his parents and Snoke pre-fall

Snoke, Han, Leia and then later Luke have been given pointed at as being part of the catalyst, but so far only Luke's has been fleshed out

 

You think Luke isn't responsible, but that he should take part of the blame? Nothing any of them did justified Kylo going on a murderous rampage.

 

My bad, I meant not solely responsible. Kylo already had evil thoughts, had his heart already turned by Snoke and killed 5 fellow students moments after

BUT, Luke DID ignite his lightsaber at a very unfortunate moment and either accelerated the process or actually caused it ( had he never turned evil after that )

 

I think its terrible as well. Hamill’s character is finally supposed to be the “Jedi Master” we wanted to him to be and there he is quiping like Iron Man. Just another of many times during the ST dramic scenes were ruined with lame dialogue imo.

 

If someone has a run in with a NeoNazi, ruining the latter's day resulting in him going on a rampage, is that person in any way responsible for the NeoNazis actions?

 

Depends on what manner you ruined his day

 

No, that person is absolutely not responsible for the later actions.

 

I see that different but that's alright.

 

I don’t see any mocking either. And I love when Luke affects Han with ‘see you around, kid’.

 

I love it when kylo asks luke if he returned to save his soul and luke responds, “no...” i don’t have anything deep or funny to add i just really like it lol

 

I suppose you could say that the whole concept of making Kylo look like a fool was mocking him.

 

"Amazing, every word of what you just said was wrong" is extremely sarcastic internet style mockery to me.

"See you around, kid" was taunting to me. Part of it is the way he says it. To me it also suggested he was going to come back and taunt Kylo as a Force ghost like Jacob Marley or some ****. He was going to see him again. He was going to own real estate in Kylo's head. It's almost a threat like "I'll be back". "I'll be seeing you", said to an enemy. Say it to a friend and it's harmless. Say it to an enemy you've just made a fool of and it's a threat.

Replace the first line with simply "you're wrong". Replace the second with "goodbye". Maybe add, "I love you".

 

I see what you are saying though i got to say both lines are extremely quotable for me so i can’t give them up sorry. The first one is super sarcastic but i love it for that.

 

"Amazing. Every word you just said is wrong" made me cringe the first time he said it in the movie. The second time he said it, I was like "noooooo don't ruin his ONE good scene in the movie...why....". And then the Force Projection subversion happened, and his death, and I didn't care anymore for this line.

 

thats a good point. It would of sounded better if Luke said "I wish i could"

 

Luke said he was sorry to Ben for failing him.

I see it as a mix of Luke feeling responsible for his role in things but acknowledging Ben/Kylo is responsible for himself. I actually didn't see the gesture as without any humor. Kylo takes it super seriously and is super "triggered" by it, but in another light it's like telling him this whole dark side path he's on is ridiculous. The audience sees the humor, but Kylo of course can't see it at all.

I also see it as a mix of Luke feels responsible for his role in things, and loved Ben, but he does not forgive Kylo. He didn't come there to forgive him or to save his soul. The way he said "No" kind of indicates how he feels about that.

The compassion is still there though. He warns Kylo that striking him down means he'll always be with him, just like his father. He knows how much it's a source of nothing but torment, what Kylo has done. He knows Kylo's path is foolish, and in a way is trying to show that. And he spares him in a way doing the same thing again. Kylo does strike Luke down, but Luke is not there.

 

Before we can truly begin making our own mind up as to just who’s to blame for Ben’s fall?
We really need to know everything about how Snoke was involved from the very beginning.
Did Luke still commune with the ghosts of Yoda and Obi Wan at the time? Could they sense Snoke enough to warn Luke of him?

 

I don't think Luke is responsible for Ben's fall. That doesn't mean he doesn't feel responsible.

 

It all depends on which of the 3 stories you believe. It seems some believe in kylo’s interpretation while some believe in luke’s. If you believe kylo then luke is at fault. If you believe luke, then it seems he made a mistake but not responsible for the creation of kylo ren. And yes, luke feels responsible because he felt like it was his failure as a teacher that snoke was able to turn ben to the dark side.