Characters Master Dooku//Padawan Qui-Gon: Because it's all so dramatic.

A bit hazy.

Yoda, definitely.
Tyvokka, a Wookiee.
Oppo Rancisis.

Possibly:
Tor Difusal (on it during Dooku's childhood)
Thame Cerulian (Dooku's master, apparently not nearly as close to him as Yoda)

Possibly Yaddle. She left the Council between TPM and AotC, but it's unclear when she got on it.

Not sure we have anybody else.

 

Jedi Council members are a bane of my fanfics. I had a scene where I had the full Council and I wanted to guess who would be on it. I had to do a scorecard from the movies:


TPM --- ATOC --- ROTS
Saesee Tiin --- Saesee Tiin --- Saesee Tiin
Ki-Adi Mundi --- Ki-Adi Mundi --- Ki-Adi Mundi
Yoda --- Yoda --- Yoda
Plo Koon --- Plo Koon --- Plo Koon
Mace Windu --- Mace Windu --- Mace Windu
Even Piell --- Even Piell --- Obi-Wan Kenobi
Oppo Rancisis --- Oppo Rancisis --- Kit Fisto
Eeth Koth --- Eeth Koth? --- Agen Kolar
Depa Billaba --- Depa Billaba? --- Orange-greenish head guy
Adi Gallia --- Adi Gallia? --- Stass Allie
Yarael Poof --- Shaak?ti --- Person sitting between Kit Fisto and Stass Allie
Yaddle --- Horn-on-head guy --- Anakin Skywalker


Pre-TPM: Plo Koon replaces Micah Giett on the Council in the comic 'Jedi Council: Acts of War'. (He was an average human male and probably not old enough to be on the Council when Qui-Gon was knighted.)

Shaak'ti does die in the ROTS outtakes, but that was cut out and she wasn't captured in the Clone Wars cartoon, so one presumes that she's not on the Council for some reason. She is NOT on the Council in ROTS; her head is just too distinctive and she isn't sitting in the Council sessions.

For fics, I assume that the Jedi Council has some seats that they regularly bring new people into and some seats with long-term members. But I don't know who would be on the Council when Qui-Gon was knighted. The scorecard gives an idea of how often they change members (though the schedule would have been thrown off in the Clone Wars).

There just aren't many EU books or comics that I know of for that time period if you want to stick with the pro-fics background.

I assume that Qui-Gon was in his early twenties when he was knighted, 23-23 and that he was 'top of his class'. And I assume that Dooku was knighted at about the same age. So, early twenties is about right for really good apprentices. Anakin had the talent to be knighted even younger, but not the maturity. Obi-Wan was likely above-average, but from the JA books, I assume that he started late, so he was ready to be knighted when he was 25.

EDITED with corrections.

 

Thanks a lot!

 

Well, I had to check the ROTS DVD and make a few corrections on the Council. Details, details. I theorize that the Jedi Council has a few rotating seats that it reserves for younger masters. Did Dooku ever serve on the Council?

 

Pretty sure not.

 

I hope no one minds if I introduced a new topic of discussion.

In AotC, we see the Jedi take on a much more active role as 'keepers of the peace', becoming more of peacemakers as the Republic's military leaders than the peacekeepers they had been in the gentler past. [contrast this with Qui-Gon's line to the Queen in TPM, 'We can protect you; we can't fight a war for you.']

Personally, I feel that the roots of this must go further back than the rise of the Separatists as an opposing force to the Republic in the galaxy. The Jedi couldn't have gone from from being this Order of monkish beings who negotiated peace settlements to generals in the Grand Army of the Republic within a period of a few months, or perhaps even a few years.

Given that, do you think that this could have influenced Dooku's decision to leave the Order -- and if so, to what extent?

Additionally, what did Qui-Gon think of this changing role of the Order? Could this issue have caused any conflict in their relationship?

I think there are two major factors here: the Order's more military role; and its increasingly close alignment with the corrupt Senate. In my view, Dooku might have disliked the first change, but it would not, at least on its own [which it clearly wasn't], have caused him to leave. However, the second one is generally conceded to be a key factor influencing his renouncement of the Order. What was his initial reaction to these changes, and how did they affect his relationship with Qui-Gon, who presumably was uncomfortable with them also, but was not as actively opposed to them as his former Master? Did his feelings toward the changing role of the Order evolve to make him the cynical, world-weary man we see in AotC?

Your thoughts?

 

Wellll ...

Not my best topic, but I'll try to bite.

If you look at ancient Jedi history (KOTOR, I think?), it seems to be full of Jedi/Sith wars. Presumably the Jedi were defending the galaxy from the Sith then. So there does seem to be a precedent for this there.

Is that what pushed Dooku to leave? Hmmm, I don't know. I just don't react to that scenario on a visceral level, ya know? It seems to me that there is this hazy explanation about Dooku being not happy, not so much that the Jedi were getting into any war in the first place, but that he thought they were making stupid decisions and supporting people/regimes that were corrupt. That he seemed to feel that every time the Jedi had a choice to make, they made a stupid and hurtful choice.

Sometimes (OK, most times) getting into a war is a stupid and hurtful choice; sometimes it isn't. I think Dooku was looking more at the effect of a choice, then the choice itself.

I don't know if that was really what you were asking ...

 

George Lucas said in a documentary that the Jedi had been 'corrupted' by their participation in the Clone Wars. I think that the Jedi had always been able to balance their martial activities with their peaceful ones. But their entanglement with the Republic threw them out of balance when Palpatine undermined them through it. When Mace Windu said that they were 'keepers of the peace' he never backed it up with action. It never occurred to anyone on the Council that the Jedi should stay out of the fight. I suppose they would have had to have moved out of the Temple on Coruscant if they did that, but they wouldn't have been wiped out either.

Actually, I think that Dooku left the Order because they didn't have a more military role and aggressively go after the corruption in the Senate. I think that's how Palpatine won him over. If the Jedi were going to peaceful wimps and not get the galaxy back into shape, then he was going to go with the Sith.

I think Qui-Gon would have gotten caught up in the Clone Wars with everyone else, though not without some argument. I agree with Obi-Wan that Qui-Gon would never have joined Dooku. And if he had found out that Dooku had been siding with the Sith then Dooku would have had to have killed him.

 

I have to say I pretty much agree Ardavenport.

It was a pretty confusing time, but times like that leave no one behind. Qui-Gon would have been caught up, he would not have turned.

His whole focus was on the right decision here and now. I wouldn't have liked to see a fight between him and his former Master but imagine what it would have been.

Now if I had your talent to put that into words!

 

Thanks Noelie!

I would like to think that Qui-Gon would have seen the danger of the Jedi getting into the Clone Wars, but I don't see it. Agreed, Qui-Gon is very here and now.

I would absolutely not want to see a fight between Qui-Gon and Dooku. Qui-Gon would have gotten killed. If he couldn't beat Maul then I'm sure he couldn't beat Dooku. The only way for that confrontation to work out would be for Qui-Gon to pull off what Luke did, get Dooku to return to the light side. But I have a feeling that the personalities and chemistry weren't right for that.

When Qui-Gon said that he found a vergence in the Force, he really didn't know how big the vergence was. I'm sure that Palpatine was already working on Dooku as his back-up apprentice by then.

If Maul had survived Naboo, then Palpatine probably would have arranged for Dooku to fight Maul, to ascend to being a Sith. If Dooku couldn't beat Maul, then Palpatine wouldn't want him anyway.

If Qui-Gon had survived Naboo, then he would have been facing Dooku eventually. Qui-Gon was boxed into that vergence all along and he didn't know it.

 

I'm not sure I understand how you reached this conclusion. I am pretty sure that Palpatine intended the Jedi to be wiped out no matter what they did. Maybe not if they had all turned to the dark side and groveled at his feet or something, but honestly, that's pretty much wiped out as Jedi even if they're not dead. But I think he intended to kill them partly for being a threat to his power, and partly for being Jedi. Part of his motivation was revenge. If they had stayed out of the fight, I think Palpatine would have found a way to consolidate his power -- and then he would have gone after them.

They would have been less immediately vulnerable, certainly, if they were away from Coruscant together rather than having their best fighters isolated among clone troops and the rest conveniently collected at the heart of Palpatine's power. Their perceptions might have been improved by centralizing somewhere other than Coruscant, which could sway the outcome. They would have had more options. I'm not sure if any of these would have been enough to save them. Maybe if they'd gone into hiding. Would you expect them to fight back in self defense at that point, or not?

Thing is, while I don't dispute that their participation in the Clone Wars was corrupting, I actually think that trying to stay out of the war would have ended up corrupting them too.

I do not believe it was possible for them to keep the peace. There were things they could have done differently, yes. They could for instance have suggested that refusing to let systems leave the Republic bore a disquieting resemblance to the Trade Federation's treatment of Naboo. (This argument is weakened by the fact that prior to Geonosis the Republic was not exactly enforcing membership with their nonexistent army, but it might apply in principle.) They could perhaps have made different choices regarding Geonosis and thus not been part of the beginning, although to be honest I think it's probably reasonable to view "Oh, sure, you can declare the Republic and its representatives have no authority here and execute Jedi, no problem" as an undesirable precedent. Perhaps they could have declined to take command positions with the troops. They could have tried harder to negotiate, mediate, perhaps to be fairer to the Separatists -- but I think these negotiations would have ultimately failed. They might have swayed some worlds, but negotiation to prevent a fight only works if both sides can be offered something they want.

The problem is that Sidious is essentially controlling both sides, and Sidious wants a war. There are points where the entire plot could have been tipped in another direction by a single character's decision, but at the beginning of the Clone Wars the Jedi are not in that position. Dooku might be if he were inclined to consider it, but he's working for Sidious. If the war hadn't started on Geonosis, he could have arranged an attack somewhere else.

So. I don't think the Clone War was inevitable, but I don't think the Jedi could have prevented it, not with the knowledge available to them. Maybe, maybe, if they had figured out Palpatine. But once the war started, participating got them into trouble... but staying out of it would have, too. The Jedi may be supposed to be peacemakers, but I don't think they can be called strict pacifists. Even as negotiators, they appear to acknowledge violence as a potentially appropriate immediate response to violence, and they get themselves into situations where it may be required. (It's possible, as Cael-Fenton suggests, that this was a gradually increasing tendency and not a good one, but to be honest I've never gotten the impression that there was a point when Jedi expected never to fight. Preferred, yes. Expected, no. There's a reason their symbol

 

I sooooo whole-heartedly agree!! Specially the later part there! Glad others think as such too!

The biggest thing with the Republic was ... it got too big. Even if the nearly 200 Jedi had not of died, the Republic had juz grown too massively. Not enough to send out for negotiations. Shoot in a thousand years kingdoms could grow...but my goodness a galaxy? Soooo many representatives of the Republic...it was juz too much. Even if Sidious hadn't played a hand in the corruption I think it would have fallen apart eventually one way or another. (if not by another's hand/others' hands)

Looove these type of talks the book Dark Rendezvous goes indepth of Dooku's ponderings and we get a whole new look at the Sithly Count. Another reason as to why I think he did not fall all the way. Oh yeah he went evil, don't get me wrong (though I love the character, I gotta admit to that at least ) but he was not a full true Sith. And I'm sure Sidious realized that as well (henceforth why he sent Obi and Anakin after Yoda for the old Master's protection hehehe cuz he feared his old apprentice juz might change his mind) DR was an awsome book and opened doorways to what I had already speculated on my own

 

I agree entirely with Kynstar, especially about the inevitable collapse of the Republic. It was like Rome -- it got too big, too sprawled-out to contain, and things kept coming in and weakening the edges. But at the same time, people were paying too much attention to those edges to notice the corruption right before their eyes.

And I don't think Dooku was bad to the core, either. There was always a part of him that wanted redemption. Another part, though, probably realized he was in too far over his head to ever come back entirely to the light. *sigh* ...He's such a conflicted thing, but that's why we love him.

 

What it appears that the Jedi never considered was just sitting out the Clone Wars. If the Republic was falling apart, then why not let it? Of course, they likely would have been forced to leave Coruscant, but that would be a pretty big group and they probably would have needed to break up into smaller groups. Some Jedi would not have given up on the Republic and would have stayed, and some would have joined the Separatists. And abandoning the Temple they've occupied since long before the Republic moved into the neighborhood would have been a hugely controversial action and led to much discord. And some Jedi, after some time away from Coruscant, might have figured out Palpatine was a Sith and what was driving the Clone Wars in the first place. Staying out of the Clone Wars likely would have split the Jedi Order and scattered them. And certainly some of them would have been corrupted, too.

This would have been a big problem for Palpatine. In the movies, he kept things simple, so he could control everything. He destroyed the Jedi first by getting them into a war for three years and cutting down their numbers. Dooku was a Sith and they got focused on him and the war. And then he had an ambush laid out for them all when he was ready to end it. If the Jedi had split at the beginning of the war, they would have retained most of their pre-war number and been wary of people attacking them. And they never would have trusted the clone troopers. The Jedi would have been a MUCH harder target for Palpatine. He would never get them all. Jedi would be attacking him, each other, taking sides, whatever. Palpatine could have been overwhelmed by the chaos.

This would NOT be a good scenario, but the Jedi would not have been decimated like they were in the movies. I agree that once Palpatine was in power there was only a choice of bad for the Jedi. Even before Palpatine came to power, the Republic was probably destined to change. And that should have signaled to the Jedi that THEY had to change. But they missed the cue.

Dooku was old when he turned to the dark side, so he likely wasn't completely power mad, though he was ruthless. I think he likely would have left the Order, even if Qui-Gon had lived. The Republic was still a mess, and Dooku probably wanted to get away from that. And that would have made him vulnerable to Palpatine. Obi-Wan never met Dooku, so it seems likely that Dooku and Qui-Gon weren't close by the time Obi-Wan was Dooku's apprentice.

 

Why would the Jedi be attacking each other in this scenario?

 

Hey, the thread! *pounces it happily* Interesting insights, everyone! Goodness, I've missed the people here bunches.


Concerning whether Qui-Gon had lived--I think Dooku definitely might have still left the Order, but I agree with PK in that I think he might not have gone so particularly Sith.

It seems, to my understanding of his turn, that it would have been harder for him to muster all of the nastiness needed to make the switch to Sith. Simply because the conditions wouldn't be so ripe for it. I really see the bitterness that developed through the event of Qui-Gon's death as a major catalyst for the changes he made in himself.

Obi-Wan never met Dooku, so it seems likely that Dooku and Qui-Gon weren't close by the time Obi-Wan was Dooku's apprentice

I almost think that Dooku and Qui-Gon not being particularly chummy at that point would have made his death all the worse. I mean, a jagged break, regrets, and everything, and the lack of resolution; I think Dooku likes to have his relationships tied up nicely and neatly, with fixed starts and ends that he decides, and such. And I think as much as I love the idea of Dooku being genuinely upset about Qui-Gon dying in and of itself, (and believe it, to a degree) I think that I could see him taking it (particularly the Council sending Qui-Gon to face a Sith alone) as a personal and very deliberate insult against himself. >.> (You know, "Of course, this would happen to my Padawan, and the one I liked!")

I see Dooku coming out of TPM feeling friendless, miserable, bitter, and like he had nothing left to lose. The circumstances couldn't be better for Palpatine. And while maybe Dooku would still be open to opposing the Republic if Qui-Gon hadn't died, I don't see it setting up so ideally. His bitter negative energy wouldn't be running so high.

 

Well, if the Jedi Order was driven off of Coruscant and some of them sided with the separatists and some stuck with the Republic, then conflicts would be inevitable as factions develope. Palpatine would likely enjoy the show, but still be unhappy that scattered Jedi would be a more difficult target. And I think Palpatine likes the Rule of 2. He wouldn't care for any other dark Force users showing up.

 

I admit I am not terribly familiar with the EU. But agreed, organised military action was not something *entirely* new to them.

Yes, it doesn't have quite the same emotional ring as the whole fanon-conjecture about him leaving because of Qui-Gon's death, does it? That said, I actually think that [what Dooku saw as] the Order's flaws, including their increasing alignment with the corrupt Senate, were the root cause of his resignation, and that the outcome of the Battle of Naboo was merely the catalyst.

I am not too sure about that. It's acknowledged that he is an idealist, and I can definitely see him disagreeing with some of the Council's choices more *in principle* rather than in terms of their practical repercussions.

I don't know. I'm extremely biased toward Dooku, of course, but I honestly can't see him actively, personally killing Qui-Gon. Maybe if he truly believed it was for the greater good, he'd allow it to happen, but as for personally sticking Qui-Gon with the business end of his lightsaber? I can't see that happening. One might use the arena scene as an example of an instance where he seemed to have no qualms about killing Jedi?but notice that later on, in the hangar, he hesitates a *lot* about killing Obi-Wan and Anakin. Even in his duel with Yoda, he seemed more concerned with making good his getaway rather than defeating Yoda. What more his former Padawan?

I think he would have been opposed to the war in principle, but I think he would not have been able to foresee the far-reaching consequences in terms of the Order's survival and the Sith's return. Maybe he would have 'boycotted' it by refusing to take commend of the troops as the other Jedi Masters did [and gotten himself into a lot of trouble], as a protest against the loss of life and destruction the wars were causing.

Wish there was some way I could fit that all into my sig. P_K, you expressed my [thus far] disorganised feelings so elegantly! I thank you.

QFT. That's another reason I cannot see him having an active, personal role in killing Qui-Gon.

In light of the Order's history, and of the political climate at the time, I must respectfully disagree. I do not think the Order *could* 'sit out the Clone Wars', even if they wanted to. It would have been inconcievable; not only that, it would have been a practical impossibility. I think the first seven paragraphs of Persephone_Kore's very long and eloquent post sums up my thoughts on that issue.

Also, giv

 

Deep down, I think Dooku's primary issue with the Order was first, that he wasn't in charge, and second, that he didn't have an opportunity to take charge because Yoda wasn't moving his butt out of that chair.

 

I think that Dooku might have had a chance to serve on the Jedi Council, but there were not enough people on it who would have agreed with what he might have wanted to do. He probably wanted the Jedi to more actively take things over.

Interesting and well thought out points Cael-Fenton -- too many to go through, but on a couple of them:

I think that Sidious would have maneuvered Dooku into killing Qui-Gon (if Qui-Gon had survived), like he forced Anakin to choose. Dooku was smart, but he was nowhere near as evilly clever as Palpatine. And very true about Dooku holding back on killing Anakin and Obi-Wan on Genosis. He deliberately wounded both of them, especially Obi-Wan. Those were mostly surface wounds! Did Dooku plan on enlisting Jedi into his cause? Did he even know about Order 66? I really doubt it.

By the time you get to TPM the Jedi are already too tied to the Republic, even before Palpatine became chancellor. Only a radical change could have saved them at all, and they didn't know how to do it, especially Yoda and the Council. Too traditional.

 

*butts in with total change of subject*

So I'm sitting here sick in bed today watching "The Far Pavilions," -- and it's none other than Christopher Lee, at somewhere past 60 years of age!

My, my, Dooku at that age was really splendid. *sigh*

*dies*

We now return you to your regularly scheduled program.

 

I'm enjoying the discussion so far, Cael-Fenton , Persephone-Kore, and ardavenport. Very enlightening.

I also find it hard to imagine Dooku killing Qui-Gon but with very clever storytelling, a fan fiction writer can make anything possible.

 

[off_topic]

Sorry to hear you were ill, LLL. I hope watching Christopher Lee made you feel better. I have not seen The Far Pavilions myself, but I have always found that devil of a man oddly?therapeutic.

I hear ya.[/off_topic]

sabarte, I agree that he probably had an ongoing problem with authority, but I don't know if his 'primary issue' was specifically that he wasn't running the Jedi matinée. I mean, I would like to think he can follow orders when they happen to at least intersect with some of his opinions. That is exactly what he did for most of his life before it all went to Sith. Because he left at that age, as such an esteemed, if percievedly selfwilled Jedi Master, I personally doubt that it was *mostly* that aspect of his personality which caused him to leave the Order. Certainly it was a part of that, but I think his departure was due mainly to external factors.

That's an excellent point, ardravenport. I think it is highly significant that Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan went to Naboo at the behest of Supreme Chancellor Valorum.

aNX = cool.



Sorry. I would absolutely love to see that written, at any rate.

 

...It's been done, but I didn't save the link.