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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Discussion Masterpieces to Touch the Heart, Stir the Soul (Tolkien Thread) Hobbits; Friendship: 07/15/17

Discussion in 'Non Star Wars Fan Fiction' started by WarmNyota_SweetAyesha, Jul 6, 2014.

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  1. NYCitygurl

    NYCitygurl Manager Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jul 20, 2002
    Welcome to the thread, Revanfan1!

    The second change I believe was necessary was character development. In the book, the only characters who develop are Bilbo and Thorin (the former for the better, the latter for the worse, although he too changed for the better by the end). In the movie, we get to see all these characters grow, but I especially liked how much more development they gave Thorin. In the book he's consistently a jerk until the end. Here, we get one of my favorite emotional movie scenes ever–the scene where the eagles set them down on the rock, and Thorin says to Bilbo "I've never been so wrong in my entire life!" It's a touching, awesome moment that gives me goosebumps-of-awesome every time I watch it. I also enjoy Bofur–he did practically nothing in the book, but here we see him initially teasing Bilbo, but then becoming fast friends with him by the beginning of the Goblin Town sequence–he was ready to let Bilbo go back to Hobbiton because he was homesick. And Fili and Kili, of course, are breakout stars.

    I completely agree about all of this! :D

    I actually can't speak to the new prompt, but I just wanted to say that I saw the trailer for the third movie, and I'm about wiggling in excitement! :D
     
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  2. WarmNyota_SweetAyesha

    WarmNyota_SweetAyesha Chosen One star 8

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    Aug 31, 2004
    I enjoyed reading those insights/contrasts. Space_Wolf has fallen more in line with the stronger more proactive Dwarven stance. Of course, their seeming passivity as outlined in the written story does make sense according to the bitter history they've had with the Elves and holding the opinion that 'this is your war' not mine, not until Erebor is threatened directly. The Elves of Mirkwood were also quite insular. Mira_Jade has superbly crafted a ficlet hypothesizing that the Rings worn by the particular rulers were working some ill influence. [face_thinking]
     
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  3. WarmNyota_SweetAyesha

    WarmNyota_SweetAyesha Chosen One star 8

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    Aug 31, 2004
    Sending out a page for the insightful and eloquent Cael-Fenton and the brilliant Mira_Jade to comment on this current topic. @};-

    To branch out further and fuel different theories: Were the Numenorians just pawns or did they really feel their choices would lead to a particular desired outcome?
     
  4. Cael-Fenton

    Cael-Fenton Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jun 22, 2006
    I haven't thought about this much. The Akallabeth is certainly one of the most fascinating stories in the Silmarillion :)

    May I ask what you mean by "their choices"? Does that refer to their capture of Sauron and everything that followed specifically from it -- ie, the Morgoth cults, the persecution of the Faithful and the fateful sailing of Ar-Pharazon's fleet? Or do you mean the ossification and decay of their culture more generally -- the arrogance and lust for power even over death, which made them more susceptible to Sauron's manipulation?
     
  5. WarmNyota_SweetAyesha

    WarmNyota_SweetAyesha Chosen One star 8

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    Aug 31, 2004
    Both are intriguing to me, Cael-Fenton @};- But the latter especially is something I would like to have input on. [face_batting]
     
  6. Mira_Jade

    Mira_Jade The (FavoriteTM) Fanfic Mod With the Cape star 5 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Jun 29, 2004
    I'm here! I saw this topic, and have been putting my thinking cap on for it - it deserves its own essay, but I think that I will settle with saying this:

    I think that it was a bit of both. Yes - Sauron greatly manipulated the last king of Númenor to do terrible and cruel things for the sake of an 'immortality' that was supposedly denied to them with Elros' choice. And yet, those thoughts and urges were already in the hearts of the Númenoreans to begin with. This was an idea that had been stewing for centuries, even - the belief that they were superior to their fellow man, and deserving of the same everlasting life the Elves bore. With their already longer lifespans, their great skills and learning, their impenetrable armada - their defeat of Sauron in the War of the Elves and Sauron, with Tar-Ministir sweeping in to save the day when Gil-galad's forces faltered - there was definitely an arrogance about them, and a sense of entitlement through their many great achievements. Sauron, smarting from his loss - and really, hating the heirs of Eärendil for his role in Melkor's defeat - was simply a great chess-player, and rather than attack with brute force, he struck in a way that would cause the most damage with the least amount of loss to himself. And then, it was a sweet sort of revenge for him to turn Númenor away from the Valar and worshiping Melkor openly as the lord of all things - I can only imagine the joy he got from that. The most dangerous thing about Sauron is his humility, as odd as that may seem - for he has no problem lowering himself to 'bow' before another, just to work his own ends, and that patience and devious planning certainly paid off with Númenor. :(

    And then, even with Númenor sinking and the Faithful retreating to Middle-earth to build their realms there, we can still see that same arrogance with the Númenoreans dealing with the native men - viewing all other mortal-kind as inferior to them. In part, a lot of that may have led to Isildur thinking that he could control the Ring, even before it worked its ill on him. Gondor did a magnificent guard keeping a watch on Mordor over the years - but the tides turned for them when they became relaxed in their vigil and over-confidant of their strength. When a Northwoman married into the royal house, a full blown civil-war erupted when the enraged 'pure-blooded' Men of Númenorean descent protested the union. The Kin-strife led to Gondor losing many of its old lines and founding families, and the kingdom's borders were weakened in a way that it would never recover from until the Fourth Age. Even the last King of Gondor was killed when the Witch-king tempted him to one-on-one combat through stoking his pride and his ego - afterward, Gondor was left to the Stewards to reign in an uneasy peace while their country declined and Sauron's might grew.

    So, while Elros' descendants were a great and noble people, and did much good for the whole of Middle-earth, there was still that pride and entitlement that led to pitfalls time and time again - which can be true for more than just the descendants of Númenor in these tales. I think that a lot of that once again goes back to being content with the simpler, 'good' things in life. Arrogance and pride - even rightfully placed in a great power - are ultimately deadly when instead a good heart and an easy nature should be sought and cultivated. There is a reason that Frodo was chosen to carry the Ring, rather than Aragorn - for all of his good and noble qualities, he was no hobbit. :p [face_love] Even Aragorn's line, hidden as the Dúnedain were in the forests of the north - and raised on Elvish wisdom, at that - were a different breed than their kin, and their 'natural' way of life and sense of heritage and community can really be credited for putting Númenor's heirs back on the right path. :)


    And there are some great snippets in Appendix A of LoTR that support that theory - attributing both Thrór and Thráin's downfalls through fault of the First of the Seven. (And really, many generations before that. Thrór's father and brother were both killed by a dragon - no doubt, once again, lured by the Ring his father bore. [face_worried]) It is not expressly said that the Ring drove Durin VI to delve so deep that he awakened the Balrog, but we can assume that the Ring's pull led them astray - along with Sauron's growing presence on the land, which could honestly have awakened the Balrog all by itself.

    And yet, this snippet here says it outright:

    "None the less it may well be, as the Dwarves now believe, that Sauron, by his arts had discovered who had this Ring, the last to remain free, and that the singular misfortunes of the heirs of Durin were largely due to his malic. For the Dwarves had proved untamable by this means. The only power over them that the Rings wielded was to inflame their hearts with a greed of gold and precious things, so that if they lacked them all other good things seemed profitless, and they were filled with wrath and desire for vengeance on all who deprived them. But they were made from their beginning of a kind to resist most steadfastly any domination. Though they could be slain or broken, they could not be reduced to shadows enslaved by another will; and for the same reason their lives were not affected by the ring, to live either longer or shorter because of it. All the more did Sauron hate the possessors and desire to dispossess them."

    Afterwards, it is mentioned that Thráin became restless due to the malice of the Ring he bore, and that it was set him off on the journey that would lead to his capture and death. So, yeah! The Rings were no trifle thing to mess with - as the sons of Durin learned for the ill. :(

    ----

    I also have to take a moment to agree with Revanfan1 with your thoughts so far! (And, welcome to the thread. [:D]) I can handle a lot of liberty with canon when the characters are given such a time to shine - and that is the reason I enjoyed AUJ, despite my complaints with some of the plot decisions. :p Unfortunately, DOS, lost a lot of ground in that regard for me - but, I have beat that subject to death something fierce, and I will not just say I look forward to hearing the rest of your thoughts. :)
     
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  7. Cael-Fenton

    Cael-Fenton Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jun 22, 2006
    Just dropping in to say I largely agree with Mira_Jade's (as usual) perspicacious and thoughtful insights.

    I'm really busy with uni at the moment...still, I can hope for a chance to have a proper think about this! I have a few thoughts floating around, but they need to be whipped into shape :p
     
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  8. WarmNyota_SweetAyesha

    WarmNyota_SweetAyesha Chosen One star 8

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    Aug 31, 2004
    Cael, your thoughts are always, always welcome =D= Any time [:D]
     
  9. Mira_Jade

    Mira_Jade The (FavoriteTM) Fanfic Mod With the Cape star 5 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Jun 29, 2004
    Amen to that! [face_love][:D] And good luck with uni! The start of school is always a whirlwind. 8-}

    ---

    I also have to take a moment to say (a day late, since I couldn't get online yesterday :oops:) that the second of September marked forty-one years since J. R. R. Tolkien passed from the circles of the world to partake in the Gift of Men. Thank-you, Professor, for the wonderful world you left behind for us to play in. [face_love]
     
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  10. WarmNyota_SweetAyesha

    WarmNyota_SweetAyesha Chosen One star 8

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    Aug 31, 2004
    I can make this concurrent with the previous focus:

    The Hobbits What lies beneath and impels their wonderful blend of down-homeness [face_laugh] and peculiar undaunted courage? [face_love]
     
  11. WarmNyota_SweetAyesha

    WarmNyota_SweetAyesha Chosen One star 8

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    Aug 31, 2004
    Note: I am thinking of restarting this thread. I will go with the topic presented in the above post. Prior topics are still open as well for those who haven't commented beforehand. Welcome topic ideas from fellow posters. [face_batting] Please send via PM or introduce them in the thread itself. @};-
     
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  12. pronker

    pronker Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 28, 2007

    I always think of it as pride without arrogance. They realize they are only one intelligent race among many and celebrate their unique qualities that separate them from those others; when the time comes to LOTR, they mix with the other races on a grander scale, they just dig down deeper into themselves and er, keep on keeping on. (With the exception of some hobbits in the Scouring of the Shire chapter, anyway.) To me, the hobbits represent the best ideals of IDIC.[:D]

    The essays on this thread are most enjoyable![face_cowboy] Way to go, posters, to produce such delicious, droolworthy words!!=P~

    Here's an anecdote re the first thread topic: In high school, there was a Tolkien Society of ten or so medievalists who seemed to do fun things, and one of them was my friend. She said, "Read Tolkien!" in a nicer way than that, and I did. *dodges thrown shoes* I disliked The Hobbit as childish and Lord of the Rings as waaaaay too descriptive. I mean, a half page on one tree! Or its roots!

    Timeskip: Ten Years.

    During a backpacking trip to Europe, I read the trilogy and loved it. What scope! What worldbuilding! What characters! And action, plenty of action!

    Timeskip: Twenty Years.

    My youngest gets read The Hobbit in elementary school and adores it right away.=D= A few years later, the films emerge to our whole family's acclaim and I reread the trilogy. Loved it even more.

    So, congratulations on your thread thus far and if you decide to continue, way to go!@};-
     
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  13. brodiew

    brodiew Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Oct 11, 2005

    I like what pronker said, but to take it one step further is that the pride grants them a 'can do attitude' or bold thirst for adventure or a lust for life. All of this leads to a natural confidence in the face of potential danger. Merry and Pippin never once even considered not accompanying Frodo and Sam to Rivendale, much less Mordor.
     
  14. WarmNyota_SweetAyesha

    WarmNyota_SweetAyesha Chosen One star 8

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    Aug 31, 2004
    Wonderful insights. @};- I love how their sense of adventure and innate loyalty and determination and clarity to do what is right stand them in good stead. :)
     
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  15. WarmNyota_SweetAyesha

    WarmNyota_SweetAyesha Chosen One star 8

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    Aug 31, 2004
    The prior topic is still ongoing but I wanted to dellve into this also:

    Friendships... Which friendship or friendships are the most compelling to you in LOTR and why? :) @};-
     
  16. brodiew

    brodiew Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Oct 11, 2005
    I've just started The Two Towers on audio. Though I have seen all of the LOTR films. I believe that in both book and film, the strongest friendship seen with Sam and Frodo. It may started started as a employer-servant relationship, but it grows over time. I think Sam's devotion to Frodo is much like a butler to his master of the house. However, in that devotion, and though the trial of the ring, Sam and Frodo's loyalty to each other reaches beyond class distinctions.

    Edit: As for the opening of the Two Towers, the death or Boromir is somber, but the arrival of the Riders of Rohan is exciting.
     
  17. WarmNyota_SweetAyesha

    WarmNyota_SweetAyesha Chosen One star 8

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    Aug 31, 2004
    I agree. I also think the friendship that develops between Legolas and Gimli is too awesome!!!!!!! Gimli especially has this squickiness based on stereotypes and longstanding conflicts between the races, but then trust and respect develop. :cool: Ahh, the Rohirim.... Eowyn [face_love] :D
     
  18. brodiew

    brodiew Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Oct 11, 2005
    I have reached the point of Gandalf's return. Things are about to heat up!
     
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  19. WarmNyota_SweetAyesha

    WarmNyota_SweetAyesha Chosen One star 8

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    Aug 31, 2004
    [face_dancing] [face_dancing] Oh that is truly a magnificent moment. =D=
     
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  20. brodiew

    brodiew Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Oct 11, 2005
    It really was. I wanted to share my two favorite Tolkien quotes from the books so far. Some of you know that I like to write banter, snark, conversations in general. Tolkien has his own level of snark which I will share below. Both of these quotes act as a kind of snark, but also have a weight behind them that has great meaning to the speaker.

    Strider/Aragorn:
    "Yet for the work we do, we have less thanks than you do. Travellers and countrymen look down on us, and call us names. 'Strider' I am called by one fat man who lives a day away from evil that would kill him and his village if he were not always gaurded. Yet we do not want it any otherway. If simple folk are free, and do not worry, simple they will be, and we must be kept secret for them to remain free."

    Theoden:
    'We will have peace,' said Théoden at last thickly and with an effort. Several of the Riders cried out gladly.... 'Yes...' he said, now in a clear voice, 'we will have peace, when you and all your works have perished — and the works of your dark master to whom you would deliver us. You are a liar, Saruman, and a corrupter of men's hearts. You hold out your hand to me, and I perceive only a finger of the claw of Mordor.... Even if your war on me was just as it was not... even so, what will you say of your torches in Westfold and the children that lie dead there? And they hewed Háma's body before the gates of the Hornburg, after he was dead. When you hang from a gibbet at your window for the sport of your own crows, I will have peace with you and Orthanc.... A lesser son of great sires am I, but I do not need to lick your fingers. Turn elsewhither. But I fear your voice has lost its charm.'
     
  21. brodiew

    brodiew Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Oct 11, 2005
    I am now nearing the end of The Return of the King. There is a lot of good stuff in this book and a lot of good stuff in the final third of this book. One of the things that struck me was the budding romance between Faramir and Eowyn. Tolkien was able to pack a hard romantic punch into a small number of pages.

    The heroism of Samwise is also a huge theme in Sam and Frodo's portion of the book. The devotion that Sam has to Frodo is something I haven't seen in literature in a long time if ever.
     
  22. WarmNyota_SweetAyesha

    WarmNyota_SweetAyesha Chosen One star 8

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    Aug 31, 2004
    I agree on the Eowyn/Faramir section. It is delightful and sweet. And Sam-- [face_love] he is amazing!
     
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  23. brodiew

    brodiew Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Oct 11, 2005
    I've been thinking about Frodo since I finished LOTR. Sadly, for a focal character, he is easily the least interesting or compelling of all the LOTR pantheon. In 'Fellowship', he was merely bland, but after his injury and Boromir's try for the Ring, he becomes so melancholy and depressive. By the end of 'Two Towers' and into 'The Return of the King', he is almost killed again by Shelob and dazed in the weight of the ring. He is injured, injured, captured, rescued, and strangely possessed by the Ring. For the longest time I wanted to call him a damsel in distress. But, with the completion of the final volume, I find him to be just what Tolkien intended him to be, the Ring Bearer. The action centers on him only as much as what is happening around him, how his friends of the Fellowship and ultimately, Sam, do whatever it takes to deliver the Ring to Mount Doom. Frodo has no soul searching perspective as Sam does when he thinks Frodo has died. Frodo has no heroic turn in Battle as Merry did. Frodo is a vehicle for all the other action. I wish he were a little more interesting, but I certainly understand that The Ring starts to take its hold has soon as it comes into his possession. Given his goodness and its evil, the static nature of Frodo for the rest of the series is understandable. I wonder why Tolkien didn't want us inside Frodo's head? Is Frodo a hero? Yes. Was Frodo a victim? Yes. IS Frodo the center of the story? Yes. Is he the main character? No. It seems to me that the two main characters were Aragorn and Sam.

    Thanks for reading. Brodie
     
  24. WarmNyota_SweetAyesha

    WarmNyota_SweetAyesha Chosen One star 8

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    Aug 31, 2004
    Excellent insights brodiew -- it is almost as if he is a foil for the action and choices of the others involved. [face_thinking]

    ~~~~!!
    What place in Middle-Earth or beyond - across the Sea perhaps -- would you like to live and why?
    As for me: I am taken with the places the elves call home -- Imladris or Lothlorien. In earlier times, Gondolin or Doriath. :cool: Of course, Valinor would definitely be toppers if it were not "off limits" to all but the Eldar. @};-

    ~~~~

    Another question that has always puzzled me is Saruman's motives. Did he want to supplant Sauron or did he get ensnared in the quest to defeat Sauron but got sucked into the plot/schemes and fell into the LOTR version of the Dark Side? ;)
     
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  25. brodiew

    brodiew Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Oct 11, 2005
    I think Sauroman looked too closely into the EYE. His motives may have been pure to start, but then you look too closely into evil, it looks back into you. I think he was corrupted and likely promised great power in the new age. That said, he was probably deluded enough to think he could defeat Sauron if he got the chance. He never did.
     
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