Mature themes V 3.0 - How do you take your nookiee? Cream and Sugar or Neat?

Because I can't find my orginal thread (and if one of you lovelies DO find it, let me know so it can be locked so we start anew) We'll start fresh:


Adendum: Dec 11 2005:

Adendum 2: Feb 2007

Looks like it's that time again - suggestions for topics welcome!


Story Pimping - that is, plugging of a work you feel suits the discussion IS ALLOWED IN MODERATION.

Remember our comunity sensativities, and if you are willing to share via PM please say so!

Link to Old thread

Teh Ground rules:

In this thread we will be discussing the handleing of *omnious music*

MATURE THEMES

Sex, and Drugs and Rock and Roll - No I mean...

Well yes, they will come up BUT in keeping with our TOS, it can't be gratuitous, or over teh limits...

SO with that Cavet;

THIS THREAD WILL DEAL WITH MATURE THEMES IN FAN FIC

Historicly, it's been a good place to discuss how to present thigs of this nature without going over the line, and yes, it has and can be done here in our forums.

If you don't like it, DO NOT POST.

So, renewing the thread we'll go back to the first topic - you can PM me with suggestions.







From the Old thread:

As was brought up in the 'gay fanfic' thread, there are a lot of authors who like to deal with things that run a bit deeper than what we are initially shown by GL and co. This thread is a place to discuss these more mature ISSUES.

1) This is NOT a place to disscuss the forum standards, including but not limited to:

Limits of DEPICTION of such things as sexual content, violance levels or homosexuality at TF.N We all know what they are (if not, please reaquaint yourself with the FAQ.)

2) "It doesn't belong here at TF.N (or anywhere else)."

The stories themselves might not be alowed here, but Mature disscussion of said same topics is fine. If you don't like/read it fine, but please respect those that do. Prolatising and flaming will get you banned here just as easily as any other thread.

3) No LINKING of off site material that exceeds the limits such as places that have Same sex fan fic, NC-17 or other content. This would be a violation of TF.N's TOS and is prohibited. People can PM you for relevant links.

4) If you are posting in this thread, I assume you are mature enough to post reasonable and well though out things as apposed to "I like stories that show everything *giggle*" (You get the idea.)

If you dislike this topic of discussion, please hit the 'back' button now.


PM me with new Topics of discussion, and if they aren't far beyond the pale, we'll open them up to discussion.

Thanks.

 

So, topic the first:


SEX


Keeping it 'family freindly' or via PM, many writers here dabble in it. It's part of life, and part of nature.

If you write 'Nookiee', how do you handle it? Do you gloss over the details or give blow by blow? (And if it's the latter, how do you write it without looking like a bad letter to Penthouse forum?) Is it always human? (Not gender specific) or if you DO brave "Wookiee Nookiee", or... yeah, THAT (yes, even yours truely has a squick level!) How on EARTH can yu do it?

Fire away folks, I'll add my two credits if this thread takes off...

 

Okay, I'll bite. I've written a couple of things where there is sex involved and for me it's always been very hard to do. I like description as a general writing style so I tend to go overboard with it when describing romance/sex scenes. I also tend to giggle at the specific words for items of human anatomy so I stay away from that as much as possible but.... it's part of sex. You can come up with other words for it/them/whatever if you want to go into the nitty-gritty.

But, writing sex for me has always been more about the emotions that go along with the act than the act itself. I may write a couple of paragraphs on "it" but there may be 10 pages leading up to and after the fact - sex isn't just sex, it's also all the emotions that go along with it.

However, as a reader, I read just about anything and don't giggle at all. I may skip a lot if the writer goes on for pages and pages on the sex act itself but otherwise, I'll read it all once. At least. I also have my favorite writers but they usually have a huge plot and great characters and a little bit of sex in the story - my favorite kind of sexy fics.

Edit: I've never written sex between non-humans. It's too hard for me to do. I have read them but for curiosity's sake, not because I enjoy them particularly.

 

Bravo Breezy for version 2.0.

I've told this story before, but I used to beta for a biologist and on more than one occasion I had to pull one of my human anat. texts off the shelf to figure out what she was talking about and then when I did it was "ew!" I think there's a lot to be said about implication in lieu of graphic detail. I think there's a lot of really sensual scenes that have been crafted with very little mention of human anatomy. The ultimate example of this is John Donne's poem "The Ecstasy", I blush reading it. It's beautiful, imcredibly intense and all implication.

I don't want to think about wookie nookie. I grew up on a ranch and we'll leave it at that.

 

I've only written two sex scenes. The first involved Jacen, and it wasn't so much about the sex as it was to show what was going on in his mind. It was easier for me to gloss over the physical details and write him emotionally - he was being dark and scary.

The only other sex scene I wrote was between nonhumans, a scene between Jag and Shawnkyr. That was also more emotional than physical, and as one of my readers said, I yadda yadda'd over the details and went straight for Shawnkyr's uncertainty. I was worried that if I made it too explicit it would detract from everything else that was going on, and I didn't want to demean their experience. But even if the sex itself wasn't graphic, the emotions were.

 

I think in order to have a sex scene really work you have to build up to it. I'm an H/L shipper so all most all of my romance/sex scene's revolve around them. If you but the ground work in the story early on, then it makes the sex/love scene more enjoyable for the reader . . . especially if your Lady Padme who tortures her readers in almost every chapter (but in a good way).

I agree that when you're writing the board friendly version, emotion has to play a part in the description, because you can't really get into the details of the physical act, so you let the mental one play a bigger role. PM chapters however really give you a chance to do both, have an action caused an emotion or vice versa. I've only recently tried my hand at the PM version and it did take some time, but like everything else in life you have to practice to get better at something.

LoL - The Parthenon just had this topic a couple weeks ago . . . just put sex in the topic line and people will come running!

 

I've written several sex scenes, and to me it is all emotional and very little actual physical description. I really, really, really like to write emotions -- so much that I often write way too much introspection -- and I think sex and other romantic writing as a really good way to explore the depths of a characters mind.

See, that's what happens when a biomedical engineer fascinated wtih the way the brain works writes fanfic .

- Laura

 

I am one of the corrupted. When I started writing, I swore I'd stay away from writing nfic. I was more innocent than most when I started writing. Sure, I knew what goes where and the permutations therof, but I figured that I'd never need to go there. And having no practical experience... [shrug]

However, I made friends who occasionally wrote it. And they were the best in the fandom. So when I found a story going there... Well, I asked a couple of them to beta it. I've been writing occasional pieces in different fandoms for three years, and there are a few things I've learned in the process to avoid doing.

Flowery language. I'm serious. The fastest way to decend into Bulwer-Lytton-type purple prose is to start using that kind of stuff in love scenes. It gets to the point where you don't know where all the body parts are anymore. I remember one in particular in which the female character's hair was flying about. And the description was such that you not only weren't quite sure what it was, but you didn't know who it belonged to anymore.

I also avoid the four-letter words. Y'all know what I'm talking about. In my opinion, it's the fastest way to decend from a nicely-written love scene into what pretty much amounts to pornographic material. I do try and focus on the emotional stuff, but I don't ignore the physical. And I'm careful to make sure that everyone has the right number of limbs. You'd be surprised how many stories I've found in which the couple in question suddenly has an extra hand or something.

I admit, I try and use simple language, and I tend to write clearly and concisely. But I do that in all my stuff, and the nfic pieces are few and far between. I also try and have a bit more substance than just writing a smut cookie. While I have been known to do that, usually because my beta reader asked for one for her birthday, I try and add some romance, humor, and other good stuff to the situation.

And sometimes, the physical descriptions don't matter so much. One night, after being challenged to write another, I wrote a sex scene that only named "lips" and "skin." (I wanted to see if I could do it.) I thought it was absolutely hilarious when the feedback consistently said it was 'hot!' There were no other body parts mentioned in it...

Most of the nfic I've written is for JAG. I've got a couple for Lois and Clark, and one for Pretender. I've tried to walk the edge between R and true NC, and I've put my nfic behind a password wall and set up a yahoo list for the password. I have yet to write anything nfic for Star Wars, and I'm not sure if I ever will. I never did it for Voyager or Forever Knight because I never had a story that wanted to go there.

BrightFeather

 

Oh lovely lovely lovely! I KNEW you guys and gals had it in you!

On the actual topic - I ALSO focus on sensation, over action... we don't need a blow by blow (no pun intened) description of tab A B or C going into slot D E or F, though in the heat of the moment, you do have to worry about 'mutations' (ie hands that were 'up top' are suddenly giving foot rubs - where the hell did that other hand come from??)

What I find interesting is when thre characters take on 'a life' of their own, although this is common is regualr fics, it can be especially hard in writing love scenes. Especially if they aren't ment to 'go all the way' until later...

Case in Point:

And now for a little story, about what might have been that night;

Teh players;

Your humble Author,
henseforth refered to as YHA

Master Luke Skywalker, Commander of the Republic and Jedi Knight., to be refered to simply as Luke


Liuetenant Aube Gris Canaille, also known as 'Nails', To be refered to as Aube

The Muse who guides this story, and who assist YHA, Refered to simply as AM (A Muse), for purposes of this tale.

The Scene: Tis late at night, and YHA is typing away, perhaps wrongfully assuming that despite the cruel amount of teasing and virtual fore-play, Luke and Aube will understand the need for restraint....

AM to YHA: OK, now it's time for them to stop... I mean, aside the fact that he's gonna go off like Mount st. Helens here...

YHA: OK kids, time to realise that you are going WAY too fast...

Luke and Aube continue to paw at each other, seemingly oblivious to YHA request.

YHA: Errrr, kids?

Hands are exploring places best left for PM. The only answer is inarticualte moans and a quick hand wave that obvioulsy means "Go Away!"

AM They aren't listening... WOW! I didn't know that Jedi were that flexible!!!

YHA Kids, I am so warning you...

Luke and Aube carry on... cloths are starting to come off...

AM Lets just see where they go with this...

YHA Alright, you leave me with no other choice!

AM WOW! How Rude! I guess that hand gesture is Universal though!

YHA Begins typing franticly: Suddenly, out of Nowhere, A giant FIRE SHIP burst through the windows, spraying foam all over our hapless couple - which was odd considering that until this point, there were no Windows in the apartment to speak of...

AM That's just cruel... Effective, but cruel... I have a better idea though....



*




?Luke? Luke!?

 

Oh yeah. It's also a great idea to keep track of where clothing is. I recently wrote one in which after the fact, I had Harm carry Mac to their bedroom. Only problem was, I'd forgottent that his pants were still around his ankles! Harm and Mac still haven't forgiven me for the bruises they got when he tripped.... j/k

BrightFeather

 

I basically only write two kinds of stories: mush and smut!

Well, that might be a little bit of an exaggeration (Sleight of Hand did have a lot of action in it), but relationship stuff between Luke and Mara, my favorite couple, is what I tend to like to read as well as write.

I was embarrassed when I first starting writing sex scenes, but now I look at it as no different than writing an action sequence...there are certain emotions that I want the reader to feel, so I try to find the best words to get that across.

I like to focus fairly equally on the emotions and the physical descriptions, as I think both are important. Most of the time, the characters (usually Luke and Mara) are involved in a serious relationship or they're heading in that direction.

But, a couple of times, I have written a raunchy, pornographic scene just for the hell of it. It's kinda like when you open that bag of chips and eat the whole thing in one sitting...sometimes you just want to completely indulge yourself!

And I don't think there's anything wrong with that, either. Those stories usually tend to be pretty short. I don't think anyone wants to read an epic of nothing but two people fornicating endlessly, although my other long WIP started off that way. It was one chapter of smut, one chapter of talk, one chapter of smut, one chapter of arguing, one chapter of smut, one chapter of confrontation...

You get the idea. And that one evolved into a torture fic, so that's a whole OTHER discussion!

 

LOL on the clothing. Don't forget accessories as well. I love it when people forget that the lovers have boots on and they never take them off because the author forgot about them. Same with belts, cloaks, you name it. So to get around that, I had one scene where the woman couldn't get the boots off the guy - a humorous moment. You've got to have humor in good sexy stories! Even if it's only one line. Breaks the tension!

 

I'm more a reader than a writer of adult material. Actually up until a few months ago I didn't have any very explicit stories anywhere except my hard drive, because I wasn't confident in my ability to write them, but back in August I took the plunge and tried a one-shot with some success. Nobody left crappy reviews, in any case, and there were 6 happy ones. I'd have written more if the muse didn't hand me an idea for a story that turned out to be 30K, and then, no sooner did I finish that than received a letter from Ms. Muse outlining a possible sequel. However, once my PG stories are done, I have an idea for an adults-only fic that I'm going to try to write over at AFF.

I don't really like the ones that are "porny"... crude language, clinical play-by-play without getting into the characters' heads at all. My favorite R and NC-17 stories to read have some sort of style to them but don't use silly euphemisms or overly flowery terms, either. A balance, between the two extremes. And I don't care whether the relationship is canon or not, or whether there even is a relationship between the characters, as long as the story is written believably and they're as in-character as possible in the circumstances.

I haven't written any serious romance-centric stories here - The Jedi Fundraiser was mostly humor, and it's just a subplot (and, in truth, somewhat of a plot device) in The Droid Empress. TDE is the only one that has any sex in it, and it's just implied through a character becoming pregnant (long after Plagueis is dead )

 

If it's something like kissing, I'll probably go into a little depth ('his lips made her feel blah blah blah') but if it's actual sex, I don't go in deep at all . . . mostly because I wouldn't know where to begin. I've always written human/human and male/female. However, I wouldn't have a problem writing a homosexual relationship if I got the time. It would be an interesting experience.

Mostly, I write what I know, and since I'm still in high school, I don't know a lot. I stick with emotions more than the act itself.

From my experience, readers like a little bit more than overwheling. I wrote a piece where the characters did have sex, but after the first kisses I skipped the rest. I got more of a 'wow, HOT' reaction than some more detailed kissing I've written.

 

Some of the foremost novelists living have written some of the worst sex ever had. And so for that reason, and not for any personal reticence on my part, I can't imagine going further than the furtive close of a bedroom/bathroom/cockpit/kitchen door.

There are exceptions. Garcia Marquez has a beautiful depiction of the bridal bed in Love in the Time of Cholera. Arhundati Roy, in the God of Small Things, displays, and fairly graphically, the illicit affair between a divorced mother of twins and an Untouchable. And Shakespeare, as with most subjects, is master of sexual heat and chemistry in Hamlet, Othello, Romeo and Juliet, et al. I mention these three specifically because I think each employs a specific technique that elevates literary sex from (bad) pornography to its rightful place as an important dimension of character and story.

1. Marquez's sex is intentionally bad, awkward and more for educational than recreational purposes. The woman is a virgin; the man is a journeyman. They lie in bed and amusedly examine one another. Fermina Daza giggles at how much uglier a man's parts are than a woman's. What makes the depiction beautiful is that, while physically awkward and certainly not fireworks for Fermina, there is an emotional ease between the characters, freshly married, that transforms and recasts their love as the comfortable, laughing love of husband and wife. It is sincere. And as disappointing as the sex may be this first time, it's beyond doubt that the two will (did) become exceptional lovers.

The scene is about them, and their relationship, and it is instantly familiar. It's not pornographic, it's not drenched in mixed metaphors, it's not immediately spectacular. It's the sex we all actually have.

2. Arhundati Roy's writing is poetic. She has a profound gift for description and emotional tension and color. The sex in The God of Small Things is written simply and organically, with just a touch of demure. More to the point, it has a point. Sex, as the adults reading this thread know (and I'm sure there are only adults reading this thread ), is often an end. But that's real life. In literature, a lot of things that are often ends (eating, sleeping, drinking a glass of water, showering) are only depicted when they are the means to an end. And the same ought to be true of sex most of the time. It is a linguistic ploy into the needs, wants, fantasies, minds and bodies of the characters. It's not sex for the sake of sex.

3. Shakespeare does it best because he doesn't really do it at all. In part owing to the conventions of his day and in part because of the medium, because of the stage and the live action and, ahem, the all male cast, the sex is below the surface. It's alluded, implied and transformed into dialogue. But no mistake-most of Shakespeare's plays are soaked through with sex. Romeo and Juliet may have died at the hands of fate, the bitter pettiness of their families or their own foolishness, but whatever the case they didn't die virgins.

I think in all three examples, the trick comes down to looking slightly off to the side, in the way films of the sixties and seventies blurred our heroes and dipped down to the bedside table or to the lamp. And in this way, there are a few instances of good sex in novels, but I'm certainly not a writer skilled enough to duplicate them.

Nobody really knows how to write blue scenes. Perhaps because what we all thought in highschool is true-having sex beats reading.

 

I have to agree with Cantador--implication or fuzzing to the side is generally more effective. It can even be hotter. A lot of the time people's own imaginations fill things in far more satisfyingly for them than you could, and going up to a certain point and letting them fill in the rest can be very effective.

I find fight and love scenes to be the most difficult to write--the time I spend on the rest of the story put together will probably equal the amount of time I spend on a battle or love scene, simply because to do them well is more labor-intensive, I think. Both require a sense of . . . action, as it were, and you want to get the overall picture across effectively. This might be accomplished by ignoring the details and focusing on the big picture, or by judiciously describing smaller details. For instance, I've always found that instead of focusing on what everyone knows is going on, it's often more effective to describe things like the scent of soap on a person's skin or the feel of the bedsheets or the way the light plays across someone's face. Describing things in too much clinical detail can get boring and emotionless, and as a reader of romance novels I've found far too much of that. So unless that's what you're going for (and it could very well be, I suppose), it's better to focus on something other than exactly where he put however many hands he has, etc. etc.

And losing track of the realities never helps the situation. Where is this taking place? Are the lovers going to be worried about someone walking in on them? What are they wearing? Is it hard to get off? And there is the consideration of "safe" sex, in whatever permutations that exists in the Star Wars universe. I'm sure it does, but I've never really thought about it.

 

Now now folks, Yes the turning away and what not can all be well and good and if that is where your choice lies, then I'll respectfull redirect you to the Embarrased to write romance thread.

Not all sexuality explicit (which is a poor choice of words on my part - lets call it sexually intense) fic is 'porn fic' or Porn without Plot / Plot What Plot (PWP's) although if that's what people like - granted we don't have them on these boards - that's all well and good.

SO, once again on to writing "Love/sex' Scenes.

Getting beyond the florid and the biological, there has got to be a middle ground... So how do you work it?

 

DarthBreezy:

I didn't say look away. I said that's one way of doing it-and the way Shakespeare did it-but the other two examples certainly don't. Arhundati Roy manages sex scenes that are quite explicit (and banned in parts of her native India) and I think that's one way of going about it, but it requires a great deal of skill and, I think, some sort of "hook" to be interesting. In that book, it's tied intimately to the nature of their relationship-to its transience and violence. In Love in the Time of Cholera, it's the awkwardness of bride and groom coming to one another for the first time.

Writing without these details, to me, is much harder. Sex, like baseball, is the sort of thing that's quite dull if you aren't holding the bat.

 

Getting beyond the florid and the biological, there has got to be a middle ground... So how do you work it?

I try to work it by staying away (pardon my terms) from the florid and the biological. You can portray plenty with simply the body parts of skin, hair, and eyes. Eyes are the windows to the soul, and I think that if you can describe someone's eyes, then you can truly get to the basis of sex. Eyes are the most personal part of anyone's body, and if you are writing a romantic sex scene, then it ought to be personal.

Plus, things in sex often happen quickly. So if you use words that are short, and sentences that are short, you'll get that same sort of feel to it, and you can get a lot out of your paragraphs.

Writing without these details, to me, is much harder. Sex, like baseball, is the sort of thing that's quite dull if you aren't holding the bat.

That is beautiful. But, writing without details leaves things up to the imagination of the reader...just like listening to baseball on the radio leaves the exact game up the imagination of the listener (which happens to be one of my favorite pasttimes).

~Carr

 

Cantador But no mistake-most of Shakespeare's plays are soaked through with sex.

Except MacBeth. I think Lady MacBeth was a cold fish.

I've yet to step into the realm of hot and heaviness, whether implied or more, but I think if I did it, ('write' it that is, we're not going the other way) I would probably make it funny, while not trying.

I wouldn't be averse to trying it, I just probably wouldn't post it on any board, not out of fear of being ridiculed or anything, just because I probably wouldn't want to post it. Ladies don't usually like guys takes on that kind of stuff anyway. And no I'm not going to bash it either, as long as little kids don't have access to the hotter and heavier stuff.

 

Well you got two middle grounds you're dealing with. Board version and PM version.

For the board version of a romance scene I find that using the 5 senses are always the best way of enhancing the scene and it gives you a balance of physical and mental. Because once you use one of these senses in description it can lead to how that makes someone feel.

"Her lips tasted of honey"

"His scent was intoxicating"

"He heard her moan with pleasure"

"His callused hands felt warm against her soft skin."

"She could see the desire burning in his eyes"

And for the PM version you throw in a little more detail about what they're doing to cause these sensations, but always with the balance of emotions and how the person is feeling.

 

Carr:

I don't disagree. I think oftentimes the best way to deal with a sex scene, particularly in literature but also in film, is to allude to it and then to coast gently over it, just enough to provoke the reader's imagination. The same is true of battles (the greatest English language depiction of warfare-in A Farewell To Arms-provides the barest description to create the architecture of its readers' images), more personal violence and anything else touched with sufficient emotion to inspire.

As for baseball... That's where we part company.

Brentus:

Really?

I have no trouble picturing Lady Macbeth in a dungeon mask and spurs.

 

I DID NOT NEED THAT IMAGE AT THIS TIME OF THE MORNING.

...



Er. Damn, now I have to come up with a response to the topic.

Yeah, generally, I do the FTB thing, because ... I can't write sex. But, my count of 'okay, be suggestive but don't say exactly what's going on physically' fics is now at two, hmm. (Both slash, ummm, I think this makes me odd. Odder. Not that I couldn't write het, I just, haven't really written anything other than gen or slash in a few months...)

I'll read anything, though. Although I don't like too-flowery language -- it makes me laugh and close the tab.

 

No wonder MacBeth was seeing daggers in the air, he was always under the threat of his good lady wife.

Lady MacBeth: And if you don't come home with a new title, Mister, you're taking another trip down to the basement!

MacBeth: Whether 'tis nobler to suffer the slings and arrows of an outrageous wife. Oi vey! Now I'm borrowing from Hamlet! Won't this nightmare end! Where are those nasty witches, I'm gonna boil them in their own cauldron for this!