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Kenobi Maul in Kenobi

Discussion in 'Beyond the Saga - Spoilers Allowed' started by Darth Chiznuk , May 11, 2018.

  1. Theo333

    Theo333 Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Mar 29, 2011
    I can't wait for the live-action adaptation of Ezra and Chopper wandering around the desert for 75% of the screen time.
     
  2. Sannom

    Sannom Jedi Master star 3

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    Nov 14, 2011
    I am not liking any of those ideas that put Maul in the Obi-Wan movie. Not one of them. Those that involves the two meeting even less.
     
    cwustudent and DannyD like this.
  3. Guy-Gone_Weird

    Guy-Gone_Weird Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Jul 28, 2003
    Just throwing this idea out there:

    When Maul was re-introduced in Rebels, the Inquisitors knew who he was and one referred to him as "the Shadow". They also mentioned that "the rumors were true" that he lived. I doubt they are referring to his supposed Naboo death, as they likely wouldn't have known about that event. It wasn't exactly a secret that he was alive during the Clone Wars. We know Palpatine knew Maul was still alive after the events of TCW and Son of Dathomir. So I think they must be referring to another supposed end from which he was rumored to have survived.

    In the same Rebels episode, Ahsoka asks "why are you working so hard to keep us here [on Malachor]?" and Maul replies with a very somber "I cannot defeat Vader alone..."

    [​IMG]

    That screams to me that Maul fought Darth Vader and lost prior to this Rebels episode. Maybe prior to Solo and Rebels, Palpatine sent Darth Vader to hunt Maul down and they fought, and Maul appeared to be dead or disappeared. From then on, he operated as a crime lord called "the Shadow" from behind the scenes (hence the Solo role). He wouldn't want to so directly draw the attention of Palpatine or Vader again until he had something to give him the upper hand.

    What if we may be finally getting a Darth Vader purging the Jedi movie so many wanted to see, especially after seeing him in action in Rogue One? Vader would be hunting down not just Jedi, but all Force users who were threats - including Maul. I just don't see how Maul could be in the Kenobi movie apart from nightmares/visions/flashbacks, unless they really do a live-action remake of those Rebels episodes on Tatooine. But perhaps this Vader/Maul duel happens early in the Kenobi movie, which is rumored to prominently feature Vader.

    So the timeline is this:
    • Episode I - Maul defeated on Naboo
    • TCW - Maul resurfaces, forms Shadow Collective, events of Son of Dathomir and unmade TCW finale Battle of Mandalore
    • Kenobi/Vader film - At some point before 10 BBY, Maul confronts Vader in a duel and loses. The Inquisitors are made aware of his existence.
    • Solo - Maul becomes a crime lord known as "the Shadow"
    • Rebels - Maul eventually ends up on Malachor, finds Kenobi and is killed by him
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2018
  4. Vorax

    Vorax Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 10, 2014
    Only thing to take away from Solo is that Maul is very much alive and well and managed to maintain his plan of commanding a new galactic underworld. He had control
    of 2,000 neutral systems in his vast criminal empire that was the Shadow Collective previously and Maul never gave up his resources in SOD. Mandalore was just the front cover anyway.

    Now he remains a sinister presence known to a select few underbosses. Maul would likely be carrying out clandestine operations, assassinations, funding or leading various militias and insurgents and causing various pirate raids and insurrections on Imperial and their criminal allies controlled planets and infrastructure . Moreover he's likely more after secrets and WMD's. The underworld is a fertile place for Maul to flourish since he has the resources to sustain a war without the scrutiny of the Empire.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2018
  5. vypernight

    vypernight Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Nov 1, 2012
    Here's my question. How do you bring back Maul in a way that the audience doesn't need to watch TCW or Rebels or read any of the comics to know what is going on. The average viewer believes Maul is literally beside himself. However, a number of characters know he's alive. How do you reveal him with just enough information to keep it in the film itself?
     
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  6. Swashbucklingjedi

    Swashbucklingjedi Game Winner star 5 VIP - Game Winner

    Registered:
    Oct 3, 2010
    Yeah that is one of the reasons why Maul suddenly appearing in the Kenobi movie makes no sense at all. If Maul had his own movie- we could see how he exactly he survived the Naboo-incident and ended up on Lotho Minor as man-spider monster, that would connect to TCW but not remake it or require anyone to watch TCW. Dave Filoni's decision to solve the Maul-problem by killing him off again in Rebels shows IMO how even him opposed the entire Maul's revival idea from the start and did it only because Lucas insisted it. Sure Maul's revival did offer some interesting possibilities for TCW-storylines, like personal revenge by killing Satine, examining brotherly bonds of Maul and Savage, his background and interesting idea of more-than-two-sith power struggle, but ultimately it was not worth it- those things could have been done without bringing him back alive at all, Savage could've been developed more for example, sith power struggle is better suited for somewhere in the Old Republic era. Honestly I think revived Maul was more a problem than resource story-wise. In the end I think they dealt with him well enough in the Rebels. So Obi-Wan and Maul's story is told- it needs not to be expanded and it should not be expanded in Kenobi-movie at least.

    Kenobi-movie has to invent new antagonist instead of reheating leftovers of the already established stories. They cannot really revive Grievous either (or Dooku) and Asajj was killed off in the Dark Disciple. Darth Vader is actually not impossible, since it is not specified in ANH when they last time met, but sure it would be unnecessary and kinda dumb retcon to say it was not on Mustafar in ROTS. But we already know how their story ends so there is nothing to tell really.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2018
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  7. Bor Mullet

    Bor Mullet Jedi Master star 4

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    Apr 6, 2018
    Simple. For the average audience, who doesn't remember anything about Maul, he's simply the big bad gangster behind it all in Solo. They don't need to know anything about him to get that.

    And for those who remember he was cut in half? They'll probably start googling as soon as they leave the theater, and find out right away.

    Fans are already making a mountain out of a molehill here. Heck, it's not even a molehill. It's nothing.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2018
  8. Swashbucklingjedi

    Swashbucklingjedi Game Winner star 5 VIP - Game Winner

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    Oct 3, 2010
    Is Maul in Solo?[face_hypnotized] Since when?... I don't really want to be spoiled about the details but if Maul is in it I'm really disappointed and want to be warned beforehand....
     
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  9. TheCloneWarsForever

    TheCloneWarsForever Jedi Grand Master star 7

    Registered:
    Apr 24, 2018
    We don't have a canon explanation of survival to date, and I can't imagine wanting to spend two hours in a theater with a babbling Arachno-Maul just to find out. In other words, they'll sidestep the issue just as TCW did.
     
  10. Daxon101

    Daxon101 Jedi Knight star 4

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    Jan 7, 2016
    He appears in the movie yeah
     
  11. Bor Mullet

    Bor Mullet Jedi Master star 4

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    Apr 6, 2018
    Close to the very end. Small part, but potentially big implications.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2018
  12. Swashbucklingjedi

    Swashbucklingjedi Game Winner star 5 VIP - Game Winner

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    Oct 3, 2010
    Ok that is... weird- it is of course possible in the new canon, they had pykes after all and connection is clear, but I never expected they would actually show him to confuse all in the audience that doesn't watch animations.... surprising. If he is only cameo I'm not really disappointed, but if he is the main bad guy.... oh well I don't want to know more yet, but thanks for the info. Too bad Maul's death in Rebels makes it impossible for him to be killed by Han Solo in this way:

    Would give a whole new meaning to this: "Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2018
  13. Sannom

    Sannom Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Nov 14, 2011
    I don't think you can. This is for the fans and exclusively the fans. This is the biggest piece of fan-service ever to appear in a Star Wars movie. And I like being serviced!

    We do have one : his pain, anger and hatred maintained him alive and he fell in a garbage chute on his way down, ending up on Lotho Minor. At least perhaps now some fans will shut up about what the Force can and cannot do : arguably the third greatest moment of Force WTF-ery (the first being Mortis, the second the Nightsisters' magicks) is now part of movie canon.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2018
  14. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 18, 2013
    Ah but the thing is that the attitude at Disney- Lucasfilm is quite in line with that. There are many things that they don't get into at all into what is going on in the movies but have decided to tell outside in animation, books, comics and maybe eventually in the other live-action movies or even TV series.

    In comparison to what's going on with Luke to so utterly transform him from where he was at the end of ROTJ into literally another person isn't told in the movies. On the story side pretty much even the most basic of basics have been left out of TFA and TLJ which apparently is going to be covered elsewhere including the new Resistance animated series.

    As for Maul's return that was of course done by Lucas himself in TCW which really is the only place it could be done by him and be truly official. He didn't create G-level canon anywhere outside of the movies and then TCW. The new canon started with I-VI and TCW as the base to work from.

    As for in the movies themselves they work in Maul doing a summary of his return to a character who knows of him but not that he is still alive.

    Well it is something but not that much comparably. Maul himself is quite well remembered and that he was cut in half or seemingly killed is also known. Of course he didn't return in AOTC or ROTS so it seemed he was dead.

    In the case of these anthology movies I'd say there are of a different category than the saga movies since they jump around with different characters and timelines and fit within and between the episodes which really set up the galactic stakes (well until the ST that is which mostly abrogates that responsibility). In the case of R1 many people didn't know when it took place before they went to see the movie but were made aware by the end.

    Maul's reappearance is intriguing but since these Star Wars stories aren't linear then it doesn't follow that they are going to be that explanatory. We didn't know from anywhere that Vader had a castle on Mustafar but there it is. Now the return of a previously thought dead character is different but it's not like no one knows that he came back.

    If Maul had never returned anywhere then showed up in Solo that'd be really something. As it is this already all happened before the sale to Disney anyway. So basically unlike the ST where the movies don't explain things, events happen and someone else not involved with the movies had to try to explain things this is the other way where it's already happened and the movies are simply going from there.

    Call it creator's bias but since Lucas brought Maul back then to me that is that. Disney is just taking advantage of a state created by Lucas. The Maul we know now is no longer the one in TPM but the new one by Lucas and his team and since then further expanded upon by his student Filoni and his team.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2018
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  15. Bor Mullet

    Bor Mullet Jedi Master star 4

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    Apr 6, 2018
    I get all that, and agree. But most people in the audience won't even remember Maul. And most of those that do, will probably forget that he was cut in half. And most of the rest will remember that, and then Google it when they get out of the film. And the tiny, tiny remainder of fans will be aware that he came back in TCW. There's really no issue at all with it. Unless you're a fan that hates Maul coming back, and is trying to forget it. And that's not a large number of people.
     
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  16. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

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    Apr 18, 2013
    Sure I mean if we are talking about the vast general audience compared to the casual fan audience then we here who are the dedicated fan audience.

    I mean Maul's return or any explanation of that pales in comparison to the almost total transformation of Luke from where he was by ROTJ and his entire story that lead to that point. TLJ introduces us to this new character that outside of being played by Mark Hamill is pretty much wholly a new character. Yet does that really matter to the general audience? No because they don't know Luke's story that well. For decades when people think of ROTJ they focus on the Ewoks but the actual core story of Luke, Vader and Sidious is really not remembered anymore than character points or plot details are.
     
  17. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Jan 23, 2011
    But isn't suggesting the audience doesn't know Luke's story well really convenient for your assumption here? Maybe the audience does know the story and just appreciated it's continuation more than you? I don't like it when we, as fans, talk down to the general audience, who are the ones who actually keep this train moving.

    If Disney had resurrected Maul then you would judge it far more harshly than Lucas doing it. And that's fine. But it's clearly a bias and double standard. Shouldn't we judge creative decisions on their merit rather than who is making them?

    There is no fundamental difference - whether the explanation is provided before or afterwards it's still happening off-screen. Would the ST be better had they provided the entire story between ROTJ and TFA before rather than after? Ultimately, no.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2018
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  18. ewoksimon

    ewoksimon Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 26, 2009
    I will always maintain that Maul should have remained dead on Naboo after getting bisected by Obi-Wan. I appreciate the work put into reviving his character in Clone Wars and Rebels, but I also kind of reject the idea of him and Kenobi as "rivals." They were simply equally matched opponents who came face to face due to events out of their control in TPM.

    That said, I can't help but be intrigued by the possibility of seeing Maul once again in live action.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2018
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  19. Vorax

    Vorax Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Jun 10, 2014
    Maul never died on Naboo, he was still conscious and alive while he fell down the shaft. Assumed dead is not the same as confirmed dead, wounded is not the same as killed. Sith never died easily and sometimes not at all completely. Fans always speculated he survived as much if not more so than Boba Fett after ROTJ. Both of them returned in Star Wars, thats how it is.

    Maul remains one of the most iconic, enigmatic and popular Star Wars characters to this day and looks get even more popular after this film. From his appearances on TCW and Rebels and to his last two mini-series and Battlefront 2 appearance are also testament to his continued pop culture success and longevity.

    The cinematic version of Maul can have all the shoulder room to make for a good new story and push forward the powerhouse villain for a new generation of fans as he's poised once again to (re)capture the audiences awe like he did on TPM and TCW.
     
  20. Sannom

    Sannom Jedi Master star 3

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    Nov 14, 2011
    I'm no fan of Rian Johnson, TLJ or Luke in TLJ, but let's not make this into another anti-TLJ thread, hum?

    They only became rivals once Maul came back and started to hurt Kenobi in vengeance for his fall and then his decade of exile on Lotho Minor. To no have that rivalry once Maul came back would have been a grievous mistake, antithetical to the way the Sith work and think.
     
  21. Satipo

    Satipo Force Ghost star 7

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    Mar 29, 2014
    @Qui-Riv-Brid - maybe just park the double standards. It's transparent and they totally hobble any argument you might be making.
     
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  22. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

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    Apr 18, 2013
    No. It's a result of it. Truthfully even most fans I have talked to who are anywhere from actual casual to dedicated outside of these boards don't very often touch on Luke's particular story. Many actually really don't find it all that interesting and wish it'd had a more conventional showdown with Vader where he just takes them both down.

    No, the movie-maker (Lucas) was the one who keep the train moving. In Lucas' case it was about wanting to finish the story. If it was just about making money he wouldn't have had to work so hard for over a decade to do so. Now it is about making money (which is fine because that is what they do). I've never had any experience ever with actual general audience people (like mostly everyone else I know or have met) who really know the story well. They are the actual casual audience who have seen the movies a time or two but would have no real appreciation of the actual story that we know nor would they be expected to. That is not "talking down" at all unless the person doing the talking actually for some bizarre reason thinks that simply knowing the story well is something special. It isn't. That's merely having watched it more and thought about it.

    I already pointed out that it's a bias with great reason. No Lucas, no Star Wars. No KK or JJ or RJ or anyone now and still Star Wars. He knows what he is doing, cares utmost about story and his vision goes over the movies and TCW. We don't have to love everything (fortunately I do the vast majority of it) like he said of JW 90% is great, 5% you'd like changed and the other 5% you let go.

    As for if Disney had brought Maul back it would depend on what they would do of course but if Lucas had him killed off and never brought him back then I'd leave it there while for Boba Fett Lucas never officially brought him back but said he survived.

    Total fundamental difference. Lucas gave explanations onscreen that could then be expanded from his points into other media by others. As opposed to no real foundation onscreen that then offscreen has to be created by people who get different and disparate points of inference from the movies. They have to somehow tie together not only with the meagre amount in the movies but clash with what other people wrote in one place or another. The First Order has one non-backstory in TFA which doesn't jibe with TLJ's non-backstory. Even when there is information from the actual film-makers to the Story Group they change their mind and so Holdo in the movie is a different character to Holdo in the books.

    First off no one was asking for that anyway. It would do no good because they probably completely change their minds. Which is exactly what happened with Luke. JJ's story of Luke's exile is a Jedi Master going to the island with plan and purpose while RJ's isn't. There is no reason at all for RJ's Luke to even be on the island if he doesn't want to be found because there is a map out there to get there. One likely left by Luke himself.

    Let's not forget though that Disney didn't "bring Maul back" in the sense that his fate was never revealed in TCW since the series ended. I don't think we know whether he was going to be finished off for good at the very end with that last story set before ROTS started. Maybe it was going to be a cliffhanger maybe he did or maybe he didn't type of thing. Filoni did bring him back and as Lucas' student I personally am far more comfortable with him doing things than KK, JJ, RJ or anyone else because he knows how Lucas thinks in terms of story. Maul is Rebels is excellent overall I'd say so having a great final end of Maul is done so now they can play with what he did in that post-ROTS timeline or as in comics the pre-TPM timeline.

    Sorry but I can't seriously compare KK, JJ, RJ or anyone else now with Star Wars to Lucas' standards. It's not fair to them because he's on a totally different all-time greats of human history of storytelling while they are just competent movie professionals.

    Now when they get people like a Lucas-level to do their movies like say Nolan and the like then that'd be different. Thing is people like that probably will want to do their own movies not Star Wars.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2018
  23. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2011
    Not particularly convincing anecdotal evidence.

    He wouldn't have been able to finish the story unless people had gone to watch it.

    Again, convenient anecdotal evidence, which only seems to serve the narrative that the only reason people accept TLJ Luke is because they 'don't really know the story'.

    Evidently not true though.

    It's fairly clear when you are assessing a creative decision it depends wholly upon who made that decision, rather than what the decision actually is. If Lucas had directed TLJ or TFA you would no doubt be saying how wonderful the creative decisions were, simply because it was Lucas's 'vision'. You're putting the cart before the horse. Lucas is a genius therefore whatever he creates is genius. JJ, KK and RJ didn't create Star Wars, are not geniuses in your eyes, and therefore their decisions must be held to another standard.
     
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  24. NienSkywalker

    NienSkywalker Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    May 15, 2018
    Yes, please.
     
  25. Tuskin38

    Tuskin38 Jedi Master star 1

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    Jul 15, 2010
    Luke going into exile came from George.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2018