ST Military Tactics In The ST

(Throws hands up in air)

 

The tactics just in opening scene alone were ludicrous. And not just in a "realism" way, but in a "common sense" way as well. I bombers was simply a case of RJ wanting to homage something that interested him, WWII bombing runs, but not putting much thought into how that translates to the SW universe or the technology already available.

 

Right. Lucas was influenced by war war 2 dogfight for SW but actually thought about how something like that would work in a space setting and against other ships.

RJ didn't seem to give any thought on how his bomber concept would work in content of the established mythology.

Lucas already had a rebellion bomber... the Y-wing.
It was fast and heavily shielded. But poorly manuverable. It need support from other ship's.

Why didn't RJ give us an updated Y-wing?
Why not show a Y-wing run being taken out by more maneuverable TIE fighters?

 

The use of the remote control in those little ships for dropping the bombs looked too convenient to me. I get why he needed it plotwise, but it doesn't make much sense to me.

 

When the rebels fled the plant, why did they fly up straight toward the waiting first order ship's?

Are we to believe that the First Order had the entire planet surrounded?

 

TheNewEmpire. Dude.

Rian's bombers did have fighters supporting them, it's right there in the movie. Should there have been more? Maybe. There should have been more fighters involved in every Star Wars battle when you think about it, Rogue One's about the only one that seems to get a reasonable balance of fighters-to-capital-ships on screen. And that's an outlier.

As for why no Y-Wings, pretty clearly the MG-100 is a far heavier craft. It serves a different purpose, it's a heavy bomber. That's like asking "why would the air force use a B-1 or B-2 to strike a big strategic target when they could just use their smaller more maneuverable fighter-bombers, an F-15 or whatever?".

Either a) the Resistance didn't have any Y-Wings able to be mobilized at the time, or b) the MG-100's more effective with its infinitely-bigger payloads against capital ships in general. There's your real-life military strategy at play.

 

In theory, I suppose. In practice, it really doesn't seem that way. It can hardly withstand errant debris, let alone the kind of fire expected from a bomber in its respective class. It's no wonder why people ask why the Y-Wing (or more relevantly, the B-Wing) would have been better suited for the fight as the StarFortress looks completely useless in most engagements.

 

"Heavier" as in it carries a big-ass payload ostensibly far more useful in taking down mega capital ships, not "heavier" necessarily in armor.

There were small bombers available in WWII, you're probably going to opt for the heavier craft if you're carpet bombing a city or whatever.

 

Well, the two go hand in hand. If a craft like the StarFortress is going at that speed, it needs armor that is tough enough to absorb enough of the damage it will inevitably end up taking as a result of sacrificing speed and maneuverability for a larger and more destructive payload. Therefore, it is a heavy bomber.

Besides, the carpet bombing distinction kind of shows how dumb the StarFortress is considering that you already had fighters like the B-Wing which themselves had a heavy weapons package capable of dismembering capital ships while still being far more maneuverable and most importantly, viable. Not to mention that it doesn't have the StarFortress' frankly asinine delivery system which is not only incredibly unstable but also endangers both the bomber and the crew inside

 

The Empire Strikes Back called and wants to talk.

 

With a few changes, RJ could have done the bombers, destroy all but one of them, have the last one destroy the target, and have it all look mostly believable, or at least much more believable. And probably a lot more fun and actually tense. I didn’t find it tense, just stupid and chaotic.

Just base it on actual WW2 bombing runs. Increase distance and altitude so you can increase their speed. Make their armor tougher, and counter by keeping the target’s point defense weapons intact, using them as ground based WW2 AAA. Make the bombers’ gunners more effective. Keep the escort, send even more TIE fighters. In short, fix all the obvious idiocy.

 

So, "fix" all of the stuff that was all over the OT and PT too. 'Kay.

 

It took me a long, LONG time to finally come to terms with the fact that... capital ships are almost jokes in Star Wars. No, this is not a ST-bashing statement. I'm talking about the entirety of the franchise, including the old EU books, comics and games. Most of the time capital ships just don't seem to justify the huge resources spent on them, as they are very often neutralised or destroyed by much cheaper weapons, requiring a much smaller expenditure of materials and lives. The bigger they are, the worse they get. I'm not saying they're useless, but they're just unreasonably, unacceptably vulnerable against many kinds of threats.

In a way, Hux summarised the point I'm trying to make in its entirety when he said in TLJ: "What is the point of all this if we can't blow up three little cruisers?"

Circumstances and conditions differ, there are several different scenarios, but some way is alway found to dispose of the large capital ship. They are sabotaged from inside. Or their shields just "look the other way" when they are subjected to enemy fire. Something always seems to go wrong with them.

Yet the peoples of the galaxy continue to build these hugely expensive ships and find and train thousands of people to man them.

It doesn't seem to make much sense, but I finally made my peace with it. It doesn't need to make much sense, at least not for me, since this is not military sci-fi. I'm no longer the "Fleet Junkie" I used to be, because I can no longer take these ships and fleets very seriously, but I still like capital ships for their "looks" if nothing else, and still enjoy watching space battles. I loved the Battle of Scarif in Rogue One, and some of the space scenes in TLJ were quite good, too(I'm not a fan of TLJ overall, but there were things in it that I liked). It may be fair to say that, maybe I'm just not that into Star Wars anymore, and this is part of the reason for my new "understanding."

 

-Why didn't the FO target the Resistance fleet, the last remnants of their enemies we're told, first? The base is on a planet, it's not going anywhere and it's deserted. You can blow it up whenever you want, take out the bigger threat first?
-Why were none of the other SD's doing anything?
-Those bombers apparently have all the structural integrity of tissue paper since ONE DAMAGED TIE fighter can take out THREE of them. Also they move slow as molasses, WWII bombers were faster than that.
-Also they need to be directly over a moving target, and they're delivery system is so poor that the first bombs are exploding before the last ones even leave the hanger, basically ensuring that the whole bomber will be destroyed. This was not the case with WWII bombers BTW. So unless you're telling me that they built these big ships as essentially one-shot deals, which seems incredibly dumb and inefficient, Y-Wings and B-Wings would still work better. Again it's a homage to WWII, apparently without understanding how WWII bombings runs actually worked.
-Really, one X-Wing can take out ALL of the guns on a dreadnought because it's "too small" too hit, seriously?

And I could go on and on about just that first scene, but the space chase and Battle of Crait are also complete messes as far as tactics go as well.

 

Okay, I have to see TLJ tomorrow. I just saw some videos of the bombing scene. These weapons make no sense at all, particularly since we have things like proton torpedoes and concussion missiles and starfighters to launch them. It isn't canon anymore, but i recall doing hundreds of bombing runs in a TIE Bomber or Assault Missile Boat as part of a larger multi-squadron action to destroy a capital ship.

But Ill watch the whole movie first. Granted, military history is kinda my thing, but the Imperial officers in TFA were NOTHING like the cold-but-professional Wehrmacht-like officers of ESB. "General" Hux seems like he and Lord Cardigan are about to command the Charge of the Light Brigade in terms of military competence and anger management (if Trevor Howard's 1969 portrayal was accurate).

The officer quality in the First Order is severely lacking. If the Galactic Empire was the German war machine in Poland and France, then Hux and his gang are the 2nd and 3rd rate troops of 1945. The Nazis were terrifying because Manstein, Guderian and Rommel were brilliant (though the latter two are overrated, and without military force the Reich couldn't have done anything) Thrawn was awesome because he was a terrifying challenge for our heroes.

Hux is a keystone cop in an Imperial uniform. If I were an Imperial Navy officer, I wouldn't even use him as an ensign: he can't control his temper, and he reacts like a petulant child. I simply can't believe that Hux is in command of a massive space navy.

 

I would mostly agree. I believe the X-Wing manual states that the starfighter is, "kilo for kilo, the most deadly weapon in the galaxy." Space navies need capital ships largely for their carrier role.

I think that we never really get a sense of how terrifyingly powerful the Galactic Empire is (except in TIE Fighter: Collector's CD-ROM), particularly when rebels blow up star destroyers pretty regularly in the EU. Its like every scene with the rebels is the Empire's "B" team. Sometimes I have to remind myself, in the back of my head, that the Empire everywhere else but the current story I am reading is a coldly professional organization made up of competent and disciplined individuals who conquered a galaxy in order for me to take them seriously as terrifying foes.

 

Given the rest of your post, keep an eye out for Captains Canardy and Peavy - you'll probably like them.

 

At least the "grunts" are portrayed as being deadly and competent. Captain Phasma reacts a lot better under pressure than Hux.

 

TLJ Watch 5:25 in: Thank you, Captain Canardy for finally launching Hux's TIE squadrons literally five minutes too late. I was literally thinking launch your fighters! as they came out of hyperspace. Have we found the next candidate to actually command the Imperial Fleet? We shall see...

Also, judging by the display on how many fighters/bombers were lost, it looks like Poe took down that dreadnought for a bargain. That dreadnought probably cost more than a thousand aircraft carriers, and even more in trained personnel and specialists. They lost a dozen or so fighters and unarmored/unshielded? bombers.

Poe's decision to attack is very much in the German style of warfare: aggressiveness, and willingness to exploit opportunity.

However, Poe also takes the worst aspects of German tactics by ignoring strategy: is destroying this dreadnought going to help me achieve my very pressing strategic need to conserve my combat power for more effective strikes to put teeth behind political action.

Tactically brilliant, strategically questionable. I wouldn't demote Poe (given the fairly minor loss in fighters and bombers vs the damage inflicted on the Empire), but I also wouldn't promote him above Commander/Captain until he attends something akin to War College.

 

Thank you for the help on Star Wars ever bizarre names

At this point, Ill have to save comments until the end. I am not a Sequel hater, I think TLJ was a decent SciFi film (but not really a good Star Wars film) with good acting and effects. I can accept Rey's sudden abilities to a certain extent because of the Force. But just 30 minutes into TLJ...I can tell J.J. Abrams didn't write or direct, to put it mildly.

Luke Skywalker: Nothing can make me change my mind.

Obi-Wan, 50 years earlier: Only a Sith deals in absolutes.

And Holdo's attitude as a leader is completely unprofessional. A good leader does not chastise a senior officer subordinate on the open bridge in front of the whole crew. Nor would I shake off totally legitimate tactical concerns under the guise of "i am above you." Particularly since Poe is a "front line grunt" and Holdo doesn't look like she's spent much time in a foxhole. Rather, tell Poe that his pilots need him now more than ever, given the situation, and that I expect his 100% best judgement...in the future.

Not basically scolding him like a child in front of the crew. This accomplishes nothing, and just pisses Poe off.

 

The last comment should not be taken as some sort of "anti-women" comment. Captain Kathryn Janeway would handle that kind of situation...much differently.

 

I apologize. My internet is acting up, I will be more careful as I didn't realize this was causing double posts.