PT "Mourn them do not; Miss them do not."-Good advice or bad advice?

Here's my thinking:

>> Yoda screwed up for two reasons.
* He should know by now, given his age, how humans react when they're scared of people they love dying. He's, what, 800+ years old? Read a book on human emotions already, you aged frog! If someone told me to not mourn or miss my mother, I'd punch them in the face.

* He also should know that Anakin still has trouble letting go even after thirteen years of being a Jedi. "Train yourself to let go" my ass. He clearly doesn't know HOW to do that. What he needs is step-by-step guidance on how to let go of what he fears.

>> In Defense for Yoda
* Anakin wasn't there to learn that it's OK to grieve or accept that everyone dies eventually. As others pointed out, he was looking for some necromancer-style ability to prolong death far beyond what would be natural.

* Anakin never told him the full story. For all Yoda knew, he was saying he had nightmares of Obi-Wan dying and he's unable to save him. Fair enough, this is a war and both men have been in situations where they barely escaped alive. That said, even if this were Obi-Wan we're talking about...

>> Yoda Screwed Up, Pt II
* Yoda should've pressed further. Did he have visions that came true before this one? Press for details. If this guy is legit having visions, and these visions have been known to come true, then proceed with caution.

>> In Defense for Yoda, Part II
* Didn't he imply, or otherwise say for Anakin to be careful with these visions?

 

I agree.

They all had trouble letting go of their attachments . . . including Yoda and the Jedi. The difference between them and Anakin is that they did not become part of the Sith Order.

 

Well there is good reason for that. emotion without control potentially leads to the dark side. it would be considered a jedi weakness and would be a downfall to embrace it. i assume the jedi need to reset their emotions after a stressful experience. bit like anakin meditating in episode 2 after the dream about his mother. in the end its just kinda whats expected to be a jedi. they are basically monks.

 

That's not the full picture of what happened in TPM. After Qui-Gon was first struck down, Obi-Wan had responded with both grief and anger. He literally flipped his lid and attacked Maul in a fit of rage. At first, his anger seemed to be helping him, but Obi-Wan was so blind from his emotions that he got careless and Maul nearly killed him. Two factors saved Obi-Wan. Maul's cockiness led him to toy with Obi-Wan, while the latter barely hanged on that ledge. Maul's cockiness gave Obi-Wan time to collect himself and finally strike down the former. If Maul had not become so arrogant, I believe he would have killed Obi-Wan, while the latter was hanging from that ledge.

I also believe that Obi-Wan's unresolved feelings about Anakin led him to give Luke a really bad piece of advice in ROTJ.

I believe the real problem was that the Jedi never did a good job in teaching their acolytes on how to deal with attachments. Instead, the Jedi had adhered to a more narrow view in this belief that all attachments had a negative effect upon an individual. In order to become a Jedi disciple, one must let go of all attachments. Unfortunately, the Jedi never knew how to correctly let go of attachments or even learn when it was the right time to let go of attachments. In other words, they never taught their acolytes on how to let go. Instead, the Jedi enforced this belief through a rule. Even worse, the Jedi's "no attachment" rule led its members to develop a strong attachment to the Order. This would end up causing a great deal of trouble for them and Anakin.

 

@devilinthedetails

I do not think Yoda gave good advice.
Yes, at the core, what he said has value.
One, all things die so you need to be prepared to accept loss.
Two, don't become a slave to grief.

But where I think he did it wrong is several,
One, he came across as cold and uncaring.
Two, he did not fit his advice/lesson to the person he was talking to instead he spouted dogma.
Three, he did not probe Anakin for more details. Yes Anakin was not totally forthcoming but then Yoda should have said, "I can not advice you unless I know the full picture." Giving advice based on partial or incomplete information can be worse than saying nothing.

Also, Yoda told him not to mourn. Which, a) conflicts with what we see elsewhere, the Jedi held a funeral for Qui-Gon and it seemed a somber affair.
And b) sounded like the Jedi don't have a mourning process. Instead they instantly get over any death. Say a Jedi looses a good friend and instead of being sad, mourning and saying their goodbyes, the Jedi instead goes. "Oh, my friend died, that is a shame..Well enough of that, he is in a better place, what's for lunch?"
Mourning and grieving is, to me, needed. To say your goodbyes, to let go. If you refuse to do that, or have been told that you must not do that, the risk is that you try to bury your feelings rather than deal with them.
Which is what I think happened with Anakin. He was told that he should not be attached to his mother. But he did not know how to let go so instead he tried to bury those feelings and act like they were not there.
But they were and they festered inside him and when they came out with her horrible death, and added with ten years of fear and an unfulfilled promise, Anakin exploded in a rage of death and hate.

If a person close to you dies and you feel sad, grieve as it is proper to mourn. Deal with those emotions, let them pass through you and then let them go. There are those that cling to their grief and become chained to loss and can't move on. But I think it is also risky to not deal with those feelings at all and instead act like they don't exist.
Refusing to mourn is to me, bad advice.
Unless the connection you had with the person that died is very shallow, like it was a person you briefly worked with ten years ago and has not seen since. If you had a strong connection, if you cared about that person, if that person mattered to you. The loss is not something that you shrug your shoulders at and instantly forget.

To me, the PT Jedi came across as scared of attachments and emotions and their preferred way of dealing with them is trying to make sure they never arise in the first place. Jedi to be ar taken at a very young age so that they form no attachment to their parents or family.
Having a family or children is banned.
So Jedi to be are to be raised in a "secure" and "safe" environment so as not to be exposed to theses "dangerous" feelings.

I think that the core reason behind this was good, to reduce the risk of Jedi turning bad but to me, the Jedi had become too focused on dogma, they accepted these things without question and could not consider that there might be alternatives. That their way might have flaws.
They become rigid and inflexible and could not properly respond to a new type of threat, a Sith order that had adapted and changed their ways.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

Did Yoda know about Padme? Seems like Anakin was pretty open about it, at least to Obi Wan. Anakin was kind of an open book in some ways, so Yoda must have suspected. he can't have been the first Jedi to have fallen in love in 800 years.

 

To me, Yoda was simply holding to the teachings of the Jedi, in that attachment is forbidden. As he says, it leads to jealousy, which is the shadow of greed. In Yoda's (and I'd believe most if not all Jedi's) eyes, that belief is not 'case by case,' where the concept can be abandoned based on the situation, but rather an absolute-knowing the potential it has for someone to be tempted by the darkside.

Whether or not we all believe that is the best way for Jedi to go in general is not the point-but it was the belief of the Jedi, and avoiding attachment is part of the oath they swear when joining the order. Yoda was simply reminding Anakin of this, in an effort to help him not be so concerned about losing people or things-which is what is leading to these premonitions.

I will admit that Yoda should not have simply told Anakin to "train himself" in something he probably should have known by now would be difficult for him. Yoda should have recognized Anakin would need guidance in this.

Regarding not mourning or missing those that have passed, I don't believe Yoda was trying to tell him not to care if someone he cares about dies. I think he was trying to remind him that they transform into the Force, and "that is the way of things," as he later says to Luke. More of an encouragement of acceptance of the ways of the Force, rather than giving in to fear and trying to control something that should progress naturally-which Anakin ended up doing after all anyway.

 

This brings up another question. From what Ani tells Yoda (which admittedly isn't the full story), Padme's possible death may not be a natural one, but one involving pain and suffering. It certainly would be an untimely one. And Yoda advises him to do nothing, accept her death, be satisfied that she'll be one with the Force, and move on. And yet the murder of the Jedi, also one involving pain & suffering and certainly untimely, is treated as an unspeakable crime to be avenged, and definitely not a thing to be calmly accepted. Would Yoda have been so quick to accept the latter deaths and let "the way of things" take its course had he seen precognitive visions of them? Or would he have taken action to prevent them from happening, since the future is always in motion and not pre-ordained?
I'm not saying Yoda or the Jedi are being hypocritical. I'm just saying it doesn't seem to occur to them that they treat the situation differently when the shoe is on the other foot.

 

The Jedi in the OT seem to instruct Luke to bury his feelings; keep them in check so to speak. Obi-Wan in ROTJ tells Luke that his feelings can do him credit, but could be manipulated to serve the Emperor. The Jedi in the PT seem to instruct their students to not have feelings at all, to get rid of emotion. Which may be possible for Yoda's species after a few hundred years of meditation and life experience ...but to expect a human in its early twenties, that was not trained as a Jedi until he was ten years old, to be able to do the same is a completely different circumstance.

I felt like Obi-Wan was being cold with Luke in ROTJ because of the very specific circumstances that Luke was going to be facing by the end of the film. Then, by the time we get to the PT, it just seems like the Jedi act that way all the time by default. It still doesn't sit right with me.

 

Re: the highlighted, that's a good point. Although I wonder if they were basically taking a different approach with Luke, based on the current circumstances and because of what happened with Anakin...?

 

I've always seen a disconnect from how Ben and Yoda act in the PT with how they act in the OT. And I've heard people tell me that the characters don't change at all from PT to OT AND that the characters changed because of the events of the PT. I think people can see what they want to see.

I just always find the Jedi to be cold in the PT when they do and say the same stuff that Yoda and Ben said in the OT. Ben and Yoda were training Luke under a very precise set of circumstances, so when Luke is told that he may have to let his friends die to serve the greater good ... I understand why they're telling him that. In TESB they're telling him that they understand why he wants to save Han and Leia and that that goal is valid, but Luke needs to be focused on the larger picture right now.

When Yoda is telling Anakin to let go of his feeling also, I'm left asking why? It seem like Lucas took elements from a specific story (the OT, Rebels vs gargantuan Empire) and just inserted them into a completely different story without giving it any thought.

 

That's what I had just said.

Avoiding attachments is easier said than done. And I doubt very much that anyone can simply "avoid" attachments. I think the Jedi should have realized that individuals eventually form attachments and over the course years, have to learn to let go. And this is something that I believe the Jedi had failed spectacularly, considering how many of them had developed an attachment to the Order itself.

 

I agree avoiding the feelings of attachment would be incredibly difficult, even for the Jedi. But there's a difference between avoiding the feeling, and avoiding the action itself. Someone can avoid acting on a feeling, even if they have it. I always thought that's what the oath was saying. In avoiding the action of forming attachments, it aids them in their endeavor of learning to let go-which is also something Jedi are encouraged to do.

Just because someone has a feeling or motivation for something, doesn't mean they should act on it. And the reason for why it might not be a good idea to act on it depends on that person's circumstances. If I am mad at some kid for constantly bullying my daughter, I feel like I want to punch that punk kid in the face for what he's been doing to my little girl. But of COURSE I wouldn't act on it, regardless of my feelings.

In fact, I feel Anakin said it perfectly in AOTC: Attachment is forbidden, but compassion/unconditional love is central to a Jedi's life. He's interpreting the teaching in a way that meets his own ends of course, but still that is the Order's teaching.

 

Yes, but I don't believe forcing someone to break off from family or close friends due to a rule is the way to do it. I've always found the Jedi's method of handling attachments very artificial and forced.

 

At it's core no but again, I think it was phrased badly and said coldly and without much empathy.

But this would not be news to Anakin. He has been a Jedi for over a decade and he should know this.
So what Yoda is doing is repeating lessons that Anakin has already heard but apparently not been able to learn or accomplish. So Yoda should think, if Anakin isn't learning then either the problem is with the student or the lesson. So maybe try to approach it from a different angle.

And how much did Yoda know about what happened in AotC?
Obi-Wan knew that Anakin had been having nightmares about his mother and then Anakin was on Tatooine. Unless Obi-Wan is stupid, he would figure that Anakin was there because his mother.
Yoda meanwhile had sensed Anakin in pain. Did they question Anakin about what happened?
Unknown but I think they did not know about the Sand People massacre.
But say Yoda knows that Anakin had visions of his mother in pain, bad enough that he could not sleep properly, he went to save her but came too late and she died after suffering torture.
And now Anakin is having visions again, this time of someone else.
So Yoda could figure that Anakin would assume that this vision would come true as well.
Last time, Anakin did the proper Jedi thing, ignored it. Until he could not ignore it any longer and he went but was too late. Had Anakin acted sooner, his mother might not have died.
So Yoda saying that Anakin should just ignore it again, that would not go down too well.

And to me there is a difference between saving someone from death in the moment and wanting to keep death from that person for ever. If a Jedi has a vision of someone they are close to, drowning near a beach, would they act? Like suggesting that this person not go to that beach? Go with them? Or should they do nothing and accept death?
Variation, if a Jedi is at that beach and sees the person they are close to out in the waves, struggling and calling for help. Would they help? Run out, get a boat or something? Or would they just let them drown? Accept death and all that?

Jedi can get visions of the future, Mace and and Yoda commented that they did not see the creation of the clone army and thus the Force visions are getting weaker. But are Jedi allowed to act on visions?
Or do they get them and go "Well this looks bad but I must accept death and not act."

And I think he did come across as cold. Same in TPM, Yoda and the others was dealing with a scared nine year old, that missed his mother. Very normal for a kid in his position. And yet I saw little to no empathy or understanding from the Jedi there. Yoda instead warned Anakin how bad things could come from his fear of loosing his mother. Yoda had a point but did not consider the person he was talking to. A nine year old that was attached and missed his mother.

Again, did Yoda know about the events in AotC? If he knew that Anakin had visions before, that came true and how horrible Anakin felt about that. Then that is something he should consider.
If Yoda did not know about that and only that Anakin was in great pain at some point but not why or how.
Did Yoda not ask? Did he not talk to Obi-Wan? It must have been pretty major for Yoda to sense it half a galaxy away.

Shmi's death was not of natural causes, she was beaten and died.
There is a war going on and Coruscant was recently attacked. If Yoda thinks the vision is of Obi-Wan, then likely it would be Obi-Wan dying in the war. Again not a natural death. If Yoda would consider Padme, she is on Coruscant and since it has been attacked already, then she could die in another such attack.
So again not a natural death.

If Yoda meant to mourn but turn those feelings of grief into something positive, then again, he phrased it terribly.

Yoda said clearly NOT to mourn, how was Anakin to know that he meant "Mourn and grieve, say your goodbyes but then take the feelings of loss and turn them into positive feelings of the person that is gone."
It would hardly take much longer to say that then what Yoda did say.

That what Yoda said is at odds with what we see in TPM with Qui-Gon's funeral is part of why I think he phrased it badly. It sounded like he expected Anakin to act in a way that other Jedi don't act.
And again, Anakin is not a newbie Jedi, he has heard this for over ten years and it still has not sunk in.

Two tings, one, say that you have a husband who has just been told his wife has terminal cancer and will die in about two weeks. And say they are both around 40. Would you think Yoda's "Mourn them do not, miss them do not.." bit would be appropriate? The wife isn't dead yet but will be quite soon.
Second, as I've said, Anakin did have visions and lost someone, so he has no reason not to think this would be any different. So much like the husband, he is looking at a death that will happen soon.
And it is clearly bothering him.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

I'm also struck by how Yoda never offers his help in the situation. You'd think that, as a friend and mentor, Yoda would offer whatever help he could, short of going to the Dark Side, to make sure Padme was safe. I mean extra security, Jedi healers, or even looking into the future himself to see if he could interpret things better. (Remember, he looked into Luke's future vision on TESB to try and judge it.) But Yoda instead goes to the default mode of, "She'll die. Let her go. Don't even think of her. Move on." Now, Ani might not accept an offer of that sort of help, but maybe he would. At least, he'd see that the Jedi were truly concerned for her life and well-being, making it a bit more difficult to reject and betray them. Practically anyone outside of the Order would've made the same offer.
One thought I had: it would've made Palpatine look even more villainous (if such a thing is possible) if, just before their duel, Yoda confronted him with the Order 66 murders and how horrible a crime they were, only for Palpatine to cackle back, "Mourn them not, miss them not!"

 

At face value, Yoda is right about accepting loss. But I don't think he could properly comprehend the nuances of Anakin's concerns without knowing of his secret marriage. Being forced to live a life of secrecy and not being able to receive advice about dealing with unhealthy attachments (without being admonished for having them) lures Anakin to Palpatine.

Regardless of whether it was good advice, the Jedi Order did let down Anakin through zealotry and dogmatism.

 

@devilinthedetails

I can agree to disagree with what Yoda said and my interpretation was very different from yours when I saw the film.

A few points,
1)

You overlook several things.
One, there is a massive war going on and the planet where Padme lives was attacked not long ago. So another attack could happen, her apartment is hit and she is injured. Or she is traveling back to Naboo and her ship is attacked.
Two, Padme is a senator and the seps could target the senate in order to weaken the Republic. Say place a bomb there to take out the leadership.
Three, Padme has been the target of assassination's before. Nute Gunray wants her head and he is still alive and could try to kill her.
Four, Anakin got visions of Shmi being in pain and she died an unnatural death. Now he gets similar visions of Padme so what reason would he have for not thinking that her death is also unnatural?
Fifth and final, if death in child birth is so rare then does that not suggest that something else, something from the outside, caused Padme's death?

2)

Again, Anakin had visions of Shmi and she died. So he has his own example, visions = Death.
And with Shmi he tried to be a good Jedi and ignore it. Until he could not anymore but then he was too late. So there doing nothing did not save Shmi. Anakin could think, "terminal cancer and visions are much the same, certain death."

3)

Do you think young Anakin asked Obi-Wan or the Jedi if something could be done to free his mother?
I would think so. What answer would he get? Most likely, "No, we won't help her, let go of your attachment to her."
So to the Jedi, the danger that Shmi was in, did not matter, they still would not act.
Obi-Wan knew that Anakin was bothered by bad dreams about his mother and his advice, "Do nothing, dreams pass in time."
Also, Yoda did not know who Anakin was talking about. If it was Obi-Wan, his life was certainly in danger as he was fighting a war.
But again that did not matter, standard advice, "Learn to let go."

4)

If you have an alcoholic that has been told ten times, "Don't drink!" and yet they keep at it. Then they might need something more than just being told "Don't drink!" for the 11th time.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

Probably this. While Yoda's advice is sound I suspect a parent that just lost a child or a spouse that lost a younger partner might not like hearing that right away. My dad died at 60 years old of a brain tumor and while it wasnt easy at all, the rest of our lives had to go on. Including my Mothers. We will ALL transfer into the force eventually so I guess there is some solace in that if you give it some thought.

 

It's never said or shown in the movies that the jedi teach or act to get rid of of emotion. Yoda, Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, Mace all are shown to have emotions.

 

Considering Anakin didn't tell Yoda the situation or the context, can you blame him? If this whole thing was really an issue for Anakin, he could've quit or told them. Putting his fear of admonishion over his wife's life, I think says more about Anakin's pride than Yoda's or the jedis concepts.