My new apprentice will become more powerful than both of us...

snap-hiss posted on 12/14/03 12:50pm

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[i][b] As long as he's on Palpatines side, Palpatine could care less if Anakin becomes more powerful than him. [/b][/i]

That's not how the Sith work. The moment that Vader would become more powerful than Sidious, he would kill Sidious and take an apprentice of his own.

!snap
[hr][/blockquote]
Palpatine is aware that Vader will become more powerful then him and that's okay with Palpatine. Even if Vader kills Palpatine and takes a new apprentice the Sith will still rule the galaxy and Palpatine knows that. So, as long as Vader is with the Sith Order, everything works out good for Palpatine. Even if he is killed.

 

He actually says that "Lord Vader will become more powerful than either of us".

Im I being stupid or does that suggest that Sidious is actually seeing the possibilty of his own death???

If he said "both of us" - then fine.

If he said "than you" - then fine

If he said "than me" - than ok.

But "either" suggests that one of them wont be around...or does it?!

Help!

 

""""Palpatine is aware that Vader will become more powerful then him and that's okay with Palpatine. Even if Vader kills Palpatine and takes a new apprentice the Sith will still rule the galaxy and Palpatine knows that. So, as long as Vader is with the Sith Order, everything works out good for Palpatine. Even if he is killed. """"



i agree with your post except for the last sentence,i mean his primary objective was that the sith rule the galaxy again but he really sounded as someone who wanted to live.

 

Well, of course he wanted to live. No one wants to die but that's the circle of the Sith and Palpatine knows how that game works, he's played.

 

"He actually says that "Lord Vader will become more powerful than either of us".

Im I being stupid or does that suggest that Sidious is actually seeing the possibilty of his own death???

If he said "both of us" - then fine.

If he said "than you" - then fine

If he said "than me" - than ok.

But "either" suggests that one of them wont be around...or does it?! "


My interpretation of this is that Palps was saying that Vader will become more powerful than him, and more powerful than Yoda, but not more powerful than the two of them combined. That's why he said "either of us" because "both of us" can be interpreted to mean both combined rather than each individually. I don't think there was an implication that one of them wouldn't be around. That was I how I saw it anyway. I hope that helps.

 

what is the point of this.

anakin had the potential, he didn't reach that potential, so...................................


he's not stronger than either sidious or yoda.

i would love to hear someone argue on the side of suited vader. sidious or yoda would utterly annihilate suited vader. even before the suit, sidious and yoda could each have owned anakin. there is no evidence to support anakins power, sure he was the chosen one, and yes he would have been the strongest, but all of that went out of the window as soon as obi wan went iron chef on anakin's arse. anakin could have been so much more than he was. key word people................could.

 

Anakin's destany was to bring balance to the Force, not to become the most powerful.

!snap

 

hey snap!

you were on the starwars.com message baords!!!!!! did you get banned too?

HAHAHAAHAHAHAAHA!

SNAP!

 

From a certain point of view vader does become more powerful than either of them, not based on pure force power but in his actions and his rewards for them. He becomes more powerful than sid's because he takes him out, and receives immortality, and he is more powerful than yoda in a sense because he takes out the sith, something even yoda couldn't do. So this is why I love the line "Darth Vader will become more powerful than either of us". And yoda's reply "Faith in your new apprentice misplaced may be". It's very interesting because his faith in vader kills him..so both lines are true..from a certain point of view.

 

What?! Palpatine caring about anything other than himself?!? No. By every action we've seen taken by Palpatine, he has been totally and completely selfish. There is no way Palpatine would allow Vader to kill him ... why do you think he MORTALLY WOUNDED VADER IN ROTJ WHEN VADER THREW HIM DOWN THE SHAFT!! Palpatine doesn't care if Vader becomes more powerful than him, but he's so arrogant and full of himself that he thinks even if Vader was more powerful, he wouldn't betray him ... remember, again, to ROTJ ... did he expect Vader to betray him, even after he told Luke "Take your father's place at my side?" ... he never saw it coming ... he thought he owned Vader, so i would think he would want Vader top be as powerful as possible, much like he would want the Death Star to be as powerful as possible ... to him, they're just weapons to keep himself in control of the galaxy ...

 

because he still needs Anakin to secure power to the entire Galaxy. Anakin is a pretty powerful ally if he can yank his chains the right way.

i've been thinking about that a great deal. i'm pretty sure Palpatine didnt expect to have cyborg Vader as his apprentice, if anything it was a dissapointment that he got a lemon of a deal (so to speak). although it seems like in the end Anakin's accident have proven to be more of an advantage than Palpatine expected-- at least his apprentice wont go plotting around trying to kill him in his sleep.

 

Note that when Sidious says this, he ignites his Lightsaber. He's saying that Yoda won't be alive to see it.

 

Sidious sees the potential in Anakin and knows that he will become the most powerful Jedi/Sith of all. He truly believes that Anakin will be more powerful than Master Yoda, and most certainly in time more powerful than himself.

I don't know at what point Sidious set his sights on Anakin to bring him to the dark side, as this is not made clear in the PT. He tells Anakin in TPM that they will watch his career with great enthusiasm, which probably foreshadows his interest in turning him once he is a Jedi.

Still, there is no guarantee that Anakin would have ever become a Jedi at the point in time when TPM was taking place. Seriously, what if Maul had killed both Kenobi and Qui Gon? They were the only two Jedi who were in favor of teaching Anakin. The rest of the council knew better. But that's a whole other tangent........

Sidious probably recognizes Anakin's potential shortly after TPM and before AOTC takes place. He's always behind the scenes watching, scheming, and planning. He had to have known that Anakin had near unlimited potential.

 

In the book Obi-Wan actually even says that he should have died at Naboo all those years ago so that Anakin would never have become a jedi and end up on the dark side.He blames himself quite heavily at that point because he did give a promise to Qui-Gon to train Anakin.Yoda says that it's crazy to talk like that,but still...I found it very interesting that Obi-Wan would really blame himself so much of all that happened.Like in his mind Anakin was somehow already destined to turn to the dark side from the beginning.And it could have been prevented if he hadn't been brought to Coruscant to be trained in the first place.Of course this is all right after he finds out the truth,maybe after calming down a bit he reasoned it couldn't ALL be his fault.

 

Obi Wan's true failure was not having the guts to kill Anakin on Mustafar............

 

"Soon, Lord Vader will be more powerful than either of us!"

I got chills when he said that. One of my favorite lines in ROTS!

 

This line goes to show how powerful Vader COULD have been. Sidious obviously didn't know Vader would actually become weaker after his encounter with Obi-Wan.

 

This is a little off topic but...it seems to me that GG's cybernetic augmentation was way more advanced than Vaders. Why wouldn't Palpetine give his apprentice the same if not better cybernetic enhancements? I mean imagine if GG had Anakin's command of the force...He'd be one bad mutha' (shut yo' mouth!).

Secondly I don't buy the argument that you need an organic body to manipulate the force. How do you explain the force ghost's appearing all over the place (they dont have a physical body...). I was under the impression that one was gifted to be attuned to the force and that was that...none of this mitochlorwhatever crap. How do you explain force lightning? Seems to me that lightning fries flesh just as much as circuits, but I can at least buy the fact that metal conducts electricity. Any thoughts?

Forgive me if any of my thoughts are redundant, this is my fist post.

 

We already discussed this very issue here: http://boards.theforce.net/message.asp?topic=19040011&start=19041090



Topic: Sidious' Plan: Groom Vader or Use Vader?

Having read the Illustrated Screenplay, one scene really had me wondering what Sidious planned to do with pre-suited Vader if Vader ever did reach his full potential.

Sidious to Yoda in the Illustrated Screenplay:
"You will not stop me. Darth Vader will become more powerful than either of us."

Well fine, Sids, I agree with you. But now I wonder if all this time Sidious is being entirely selfish for himself (ain't that the way of the dark side?) or if Sidious is actually dedicated to a greater cause - Sith dominance. The Sith have been planning this little takeover for a millenia. Sidious tells the Senate in the Illustrated Screenplay: "In order to ensure our security and continuing stability, the Republic will be reorganized into the first Galactic Empire, for a safe and secure society which I assure you, will last for ten thousand years."

Given that Sids thinks [1] Vader will be more powerful than him, and [2] Sids presumably intends for Sith to rule for centuries, does this indicate that Sidious is going to make Vader the heir apparent to his throne (and continue the Sith line)? Remember that Anakin is the chosen one. Whom better to groom as your eventual replacement than he who was foretold in prophecy? Also, the Sith rule of ascension usually is survival of the fittest when it comes to who is leader. For a Sith Lord to even admit he will be inferior than his apprentice is amazing.

I used to think that all Sidious cared about was himself, that the Sith beliefs were a means to his own selfish end, but now I think maybe he is more committed to Sith control above all other motivations, however that may unfold and whomever may be the Sith leader.

What do you think? Given Vader's strong connection with the Force, does Sidious want Vader to one day be top Sith Lord and lead the Sith-controlled Empire, or is Vader just a very powerful toy to be played with?

 

I think Palpatine's words to Yoda were meant to cut at Yoda. After all, Yoda had overseen the Jedi order for close to 800+ years. I think it may very well have meant something like "If you defeat me the Sith will still rule the galaxy."

Of course Palpatine would rather rule himself, but when his end comes, he wants a Sith to continue to rule the galaxy with an iron fist.

And IMO, NO, Sidious did not know Anakin would be defeated by Obi Wan. He sensed danger way too late in the fight to make me believe that he knew things would transpire as they did.

 

Sidious realizes what SHOULD have happened, Darth Vader was to become the most powerful, or one of the most powerful Sith to EVER exist.

Sidious cannot see all, NOOONE is all powerful, only the Force is all powerful, and so , Obi wan cuts down Darth Vader. He becomes the suited Darth Vader, not what Sidious expected. The suited Vader is way less powerful than was expected. It makes the emperors statements true, as well as Yodas :"misplaced, your faith in your new apprentice may be, as well as your faith in the dark side of the force."

But, Sidious had something more powerful than even Darth Vader would have become. He had PROTECTED himself from being murdered by his apprentice, because he had done the same to his master., he killed Darth Plagius (and thought it so ironic that the sith lord had found a way to save others , but not himself!) Sidious had found a way to save HIMSELF from the powerful Darth Vader. A clone.

And so, episodes 7, 8, and 9 would deal with trying to eliminate, or even REDEEM (God forbid?) Emperor Palpatine, Darth Sidious.

Moreso, it would probably deal with eliminating the sith forever, and redeeming palps.

So, the statement WAS true, and in very MANY points of view. In epi 7, when we learn that every jedi who learned the new power may come back physically ONE TIME, we will see obi wan, Yoda, Anakin, qui gon, and who ever else learned, COME BACK PHYSICALLY, to fight once again. And we wil see them SAVE palps in a spiritual way. We dont know of palps childhood. Two sides to every story. But my religion teaches me that as long as one has a heartbeat, he/she can be saved.

In episodes 4 5 and 6, the first ones, GL dealt with good versus evil. In episodes 1 2 3, GL dealt with temptation. In episodes 7 8 and 9, GL will deal with REDEMPTION. (which he geniously started on with Anakins redemption).

-Sifodyas

 

Sidious had to have a powerful apprentice for his plan to succeed - he was trying to overthrow the Jedi order and take over the entire galaxy. Ani was a perfect choice given his potential and his vulnerability. I think his initial decision to seduce Anniken makes sense. What I think was interesting given Sidious belief in Ani's potnetial was his choice to save him on Mustafar. At that point he no longer needed a powerful apprentice, the coup was complete.

 

- Somehow the suited Vader doesn't really appear to me as less powerful than the Emperor in EPIII... (Just look at how he wrecks down all of the furniture when he gets up for the first time. To me, for a moment it looked as the Emperor was scared and stepping backwards.)

- That aside however, I noticed that Anakins way to use the force may be very good, but his mental stability is very low. His reactions and remarks,especially at the end of EPIII, but also in EPII, seem a little to very psychotic. It somehow appears to me that the powers of the force he was gifted with decayed his mind. I don't think he was a very mentally stable person in the last two prequels. That makes it easy for the Palpatine to take control over him, by exploiting this weakness to the very last squeeze... Not a matter of power, more a matter of psyche.

 

palpatine always has the best interests of the sith order at heart, even if it means his own death...unless there is someone better out there to be his new apprentice, or his incumbunt learner has shown signs of weakness. when either of these happen, the sith order takes a backseat to sidious' own survival.


in ROTS, vader was in his prime. he was the best of the best. palpatine was willing to have vader eventually overthrow him, so long as the sith ruled on forever. but as soon vader takes his lava bath, he is no longer the best of the best. palpatine then focus's on replacing him, so that when he dies, the sith will have a strong leader.

enter luke. as long as luke is on the darkside, palpatine wins.

"stirke me down with all of your hatred, and your journey towards teh darkside will be complete!"

but palpatine knows luke striking out is doubly good, because not only would he have a new sith, but his current apprentice, the gullible vader, will protect him, and that will be his undoing.

 

Don't forget that Palps was also looking for immortality, but had not found it yet. It seems to me that he figured with Anakin's power under control he could find this power and exploit it to its fullest, then have no need for any apprentices, ending the Sith Order, and ruling the galaxy for all time while setting his sights on the rest of the Universe.

Had Vader not been injured(to put it lightly)he would have had to plan for the moment this ability to cheat death came into his knowledge, and kill Vader by any means needed. Palpatine is a good planner.