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Senate No Donuts For You: The U.S. Police Brutality Thread

Discussion in 'Community' started by Outsourced, Sep 5, 2020.

  1. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    I saw another tweet that said “If only authorities valued Black people as much as they value dry wall.”

    Looks like **** is hitting the fan in Louisville.
     
  2. Lowbacca_1977

    Lowbacca_1977 Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2006
    The more I think about it, part of the issue here is that the wrong people were under investigation for this, and I think the reason for that is because people are not willing to acknowledge that this happened because of fundamental issues of how the police work, and they prefer to shift it to saying individual officers with less power are at fault but that it's not structural.

    From the standpoint of the officers, they had a warrant that was issued, they went to a house and acted in line with the warrant that was issued, and after being shot at they returned gunfire. That is.... very defensible to say "this officer was ordered to do something based on presumably strong evidence, and then returned gunfire", and that's the part of this these officers were involved in. I will add both that this would be different if it was something like Jose Guerena or David Hooks (both had a gun but neither they nor anyone else had fired) or Eurie Stamps (no gun). And also given that situation, just as the police can hide behind being shot at first, Kenneth Walker absolutely shouldn't have been charged reacting to what would fall as self-defense on his part. In that sense, both sides of this had bad information, the cops were given a bad warrant that they wrongly presumed was reliable (though I think at this point warrants have no real credibility), and Walker was responding to a non-police home invasion.

    However, all of that is predicated on the no-knock warrant that was issued. Remove that warrant and the rest doesn't happen. And there's been strong challenges as to if the warrant was justified, if information was fabricated or falsified for it, and if the judge gave it any level of proper scrutiny. So this would be Detective Joshua Jaynes and Judge Mary Shaw, and they have, comparatively, not gotten that much attention even though their actions and the general policy on warrants created the situation.
    The section in this article about the warrant contains more information: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...-warrant-breonna-taylor-apartment/3235029001/


    There's three circumstances where people stop dying or being otherwise harmed by these warrants. Either 1. Enough police are killed by people who then walk free because juries consider it reasonable self defense that officers refuse to serve them, 2. the people that are using flimsy or fabricated arguments to justify warrants are losing their jobs and ending up in jail so that they stop getting those warrants issued, or 3. legislatures ban the warrants.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2020
  3. SuperWatto

    SuperWatto Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 19, 2000
    Yeah, I was reading up on this because it's in the news here, too - and I was thinking "why doesn't that happen over here?".

    It's because warrants like that aren't given. It's insane. The police report said no force was used to enter the house but they used a battering ram! Our police force gets criticized but they'd handle this like your guys do in movies. They'd stakeout. If there was a deposit, they'd catch the dealer red-handed. They'd go after the big fish and they'd take care not to harm others, as they might have been forced into the situation.

    No such considerations seem to have occurred here. It's like your law inforcement departments are manned by stupid people.
     
  4. Lowbacca_1977

    Lowbacca_1977 Jedi Grand Master star 6

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    Jun 28, 2006
    Yup, these things aren't the problem themselves, they're the symptom of greater problems at play. The US focus tends to only be willing to look at what happened in the final few seconds before the gun was fired, and not what led up to that, be it all the situations where people have been killed or injured in raids that shouldn't have happened or officers who escalated situations to the point that they felt they could justify using lethal force. But the focus stays heavy on the tail end of that, when many of these things are taking place only because stupid policy decisions or training or policing paradigms are creating those situations in the first place.

    But that requires addressing a more fundamental systematic issue about the nature of police in the US.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2020
  5. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett PT Interview Host/All-Around Good Guy star 10 VIP - Game Host

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    Feb 18, 2014
    As expected they insulted her with that charge. They said they care more about paint then they do her life.
     
  6. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    Looks like protests are happening all over the country. There’s a decent sized one here happening as I type this; I was watching the livestream.
     
  7. Princess_Tina

    Princess_Tina Chosen One star 7

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    May 10, 2001
    LMPD reports an officer has been shot
     
  8. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett PT Interview Host/All-Around Good Guy star 10 VIP - Game Host

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    Feb 18, 2014
    It’s gonna get worse
     
  9. Princess_Tina

    Princess_Tina Chosen One star 7

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    May 10, 2001
    I'm sure that was just the start
     
  10. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett PT Interview Host/All-Around Good Guy star 10 VIP - Game Host

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    Feb 18, 2014
  11. Outsourced

    Outsourced Force Ghost star 5

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    Apr 10, 2017
    What did they expect? Tell the people blatantly that their lives matter less than meaningless drywall and expect everyone to just be OK with that? I don't want anyone to die, but when it all comes down to it, we're basically talking about a legalized gang, and I will not begrudge anyone for defending themselves.
     
  12. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett PT Interview Host/All-Around Good Guy star 10 VIP - Game Host

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    Feb 18, 2014
    2 officers have been reported shot in Kentucky
     
  13. Outsourced

    Outsourced Force Ghost star 5

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    Apr 10, 2017
    Any reports of the surroundings? Did any bullets hit private property? We gotta know if this lead to some kind of criminal offense.
     
  14. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett PT Interview Host/All-Around Good Guy star 10 VIP - Game Host

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    Feb 18, 2014
  15. Outsourced

    Outsourced Force Ghost star 5

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    Apr 10, 2017
    They're already not far off considering that police have been shown to cooperate with far right militia groups.
     
  16. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett PT Interview Host/All-Around Good Guy star 10 VIP - Game Host

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    Feb 18, 2014
    I don’t support getting rid of the police entirely, but I do think at this point all current police officers should be replaced. It obvious that everyone from the unions down needs to be changed
     
  17. Lowbacca_1977

    Lowbacca_1977 Jedi Grand Master star 6

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    Jun 28, 2006
    It's a nice irony that the 'thin blue line' gained popularity in the US in use about the police being what was separating law and order from chaos, and here this is 'chaos' that wouldn't exist if not for them.
     
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  18. Outsourced

    Outsourced Force Ghost star 5

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    Apr 10, 2017
    I mean, if you get rid of all the police officers, just getting rid of the police as an institution ain't very far off there.
     
  19. Darth Chiznuk

    Darth Chiznuk Superninja of New Films star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Oct 31, 2012
    I’m speechless. Not that I had any hope for justice to actually be done but because this is a sickening new low. For ***** sake.
     
  20. poor yorick

    poor yorick Ex-Mod star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Jun 25, 2002
    I find it “interesting” that Louisville happens to be where Mitch MccConnell lives. He’ll find it easy to play to white Kentuckians’ fears by promising to “back the blue” and keep the hordes of “animals” at bay. He was probably going to keep his Senate seat anyway, but now he will for sure.

    It’s almost like this particular verdict and the way the Louisville cops are doing everything in their power to escalate the situation was stage managed for McConnell’s personal benefit. If it were almost anyone else I’d say that line of thought was too paranoid—who sets in motion events that are going to leave a dozen cities on fire just so he can win a stupid Senate race?

    Yeah. That’s exactly who.

    This is probably also a gamble that
    white fear and white supremacist rage are going to carry Republicans to victory across the country in November. It might work. I think it all comes down to whose behavior most of America finds more repellent—Nazi cops, or BLM protesters who are sick of being murdered. The little fillip of declaring that in Louisville, they value drywall over the lives of Black citizens is a not-so-subtle hint to protesters to destroy property, since apparently that’s all anyone cares about there. And white people HATE it when property is destroyed. A lot of them really do value it more than Black lives, and quite a lot of white lives as well. Plenty of homeless people are white, and yet we have “hostile architecture.”

    If there’s a lot of property damage across the country, that will definitely help Republicans. Just media images of Black people being angry will help Republicans, because Black people are scawwy. I think this will help tip multiple down-ballot races toward Republican candidates.

    I think this could help Trump too, if he can just keep his crazy-ass paranoia and fascistic tendencies in check until November 4. People did NOT like his shadowy kidnap squads in the PNW and New York. Racism is one thing—that’s red-blooded AMERICAN. But Russian-style secret police snatchings are not. We ethnically cleanse our minorities in their homes while they sleep, dammit, and we wear our nameplates while we do it. None of this sneaking about, taking victims to second locations ****. That makes it seem like we’re ashamed.

    I really don’t think that Trump will be able to control his behavior enough to benefit from this opportunity, though. If he doesn’t **** it up for himself, it’ll be a “happy” accident. He’ll probably end up doing something monumentally stupid and alienate the frightened white soccer moms who might otherwise be leaning in his direction. He may still win, but if he does it will be by virtue of voter suppression and the electoral college and a new 6-3 Supreme Court.

    I don’t think Mitch cares much either way what happens to Trump at this point. McConnell wants that Court stuffed to the gills with conservative hardliners, and he wants the Senate (and his Speaker job). The Democrats have proved themselves harmless in the House, and a Republican Senate majority can kneecap a President Biden just as easily as it did President Obama. Even more easily—at least Obama could galvanize people with his words. What’s Biden going to do, say “malarkey” and tell his Corn Pop story again? Biden’s not an asset, but he’s not a threat either.

    Actually, the SCOTUS seat that could save Trump’s ass could also end up causing the Republicans trouble, under what I’ll call the @Vaderize03 scenario, since he first mentioned it months ago. I don’t think the Republicans can have white supremacist cop crackdowns across the country AND a far-right Court nominee rammed through before the election. That is the way to alarm a lot of comfortable American navel-gazers, and that way lies disaster for the Republican Party. The more people vote, the more ****ed the GOP is, which they are well aware of.

    If I were rooting for the Republicans (and I am not), I’d have told them to hang the Louisville cops out to dry, give the country a crumb of performative justice, ram through Barrett or whatever other theocrat is their darling at the moment, and sail to November looking about as good as an extremist minority party can look during a pandemic disaster largely of their own making.

    That would involve accepting the low but nonzero probability of losing Mitch’s seat and making the Senate majority a little shakier, however, and McConnell is not having that. Not in his own home city. Leaving the SCOTUS vacancy alone until after the election would be the next smartest option, but the Republican base would never, EVER, forgive their senators for letting the chance to sew up the Court slip through their fingers, if things should not go to plan after Election Day. A reactionary SCOTUS is all these people have wanted out of life for 50 years.

    So Mitch is going to go big or go home, and I suspect he will end up doing his party some significant damage. I mean, he’ll do the country a lot of damage too, especially if fighting worsens and spreads after a SC judge confirmation, but who cares about that. America was always going to be forfeit anyway.

    I can’t say for sure exactly what will happen in November, other than that I’m sure McConnell’s seat is safe, barring some new plot twist, anyway. However, I think it will turn out to be a mistake for McConnell to have both egged on the Louisville cops and insisted on a SCOTUS confirmation ASAP.

    Of course, just because this will probably turn out to be good for Democrat politicians doesn’t mean it will be good for any of the rest of us. They will most likely spend a couple years standing at the front of the class, one nostril dripping snot, and saying “Uhhhhh,” until the bell rings and everyone leaves. That is what they’re famous for.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2020
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  21. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett PT Interview Host/All-Around Good Guy star 10 VIP - Game Host

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    Feb 18, 2014
    One day the demographics won’t be on the GOP’s side anymore. They had the chance to try to change that after 2012, but I guess they said **** that and doubled down on the racism.
     
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  22. Lowbacca_1977

    Lowbacca_1977 Jedi Grand Master star 6

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    Jun 28, 2006
    That only makes sense under the stance that this stuff is not normal operating procedure by the police, when much of it is. Police kill ~3 people a day, and I don't see much unusual about any of this, except that they actually got an indictment on an officer tangentially because of this.
     
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  23. Outsourced

    Outsourced Force Ghost star 5

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    Apr 10, 2017
    Absolutely. As insulting as this is, it's actually a better outcome than usual, since officers pretty much always dodge charges. Which makes the situation even worse.
     
  24. poor yorick

    poor yorick Ex-Mod star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Jun 25, 2002
    Oh, I’m not suggesting that the prosecutor or the cops did anything that wasn’t within the range of what they’d ordinarily want to do. I’m just saying that precisely what they did and the way they did it was deliberately calculated to enrage people. As I understand it, the “charge that stuck” involved bullets that traveled into a white neighbor’s apartment and damaged property. Bullets also traveled into the apartment of a Black neighbor and did property damage, but no charges were filed about that. One hundred percent, the takeaway is supposed to be that a white person’s drywall is more valuable than a Black person’s life.

    McConnell may or may not have had anything to say about which charges were filed, or even the one that stuck (although I bet he did), but I would be “shocked, shocked!” if he didn’t take the opportunity to “advise” the Louisville police on what sort of response to make to the verdict. That is, to be as confrontational as possible and deliberately escalate protesters’ fury. The fact that this is most certainly how the cops wanted to react anyway is just a bonus.

    Apparently, Daniel Cameron, the KY Attorney General, is a “protege” of McConnell’s. A friend of mine just posted that actually Cameron is married to McConnell’s granddaughter. I haven’t seen documentation of that, but there is info about McConnell being at Cameron’s wedding in August.

    It’s hardly unethical for a prosecutor to be married to a politician’s grandchild, and I would consider the information irrelevant if we weren’t talking about Mitch. This is a guy who is proud of his reputation for dirty fighting and looking for the advantage in every situation. He had the motive, means, and opportunity to meddle in the Breonna Taylor case—how could he NOT?
     
  25. Lowbacca_1977

    Lowbacca_1977 Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2006
    Hankison is also the one that was fired in June for firing indiscriminately despite not being shot at, and not being able to see where he was shooting. This article from the Courier Journal (they've endorsed Democrats the last two presidential elections, to get some bearing of them) covering this, including talking to lawyers on this.

    "Local defense attorneys interviewed by The Courier Journal in July said that murder or manslaughter charges would not be appropriate for the officers who fired their weapons at Taylor's apartment because they had a legal right to return fire after her boyfriend, Kenneth Walker, fired a shot.
    Most of the lawyers — who include three former prosecutors — said Hankison should be charged with wanton endangerment, though."

    The lawyers they talked to on that are not exactly a bunch of pro-cop lawyers, either. The whole thing would be dramatically different had Walker not fired first.