main
side
curve

Lit Nobility titles and naming conventions?

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Havoc123, Feb 5, 2015.

  1. Havoc123

    Havoc123 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 26, 2013
    So in the real world, nobility titles are usually used with the first name and their actual title is usually not addressed. For example, Wilhelm II was 'Wilhelm the Second, German Emperor'. With Star Wars naming conventions, it's simply Emperor Palpatine instead of Sheev I, Galactic Emperor. The same goes with Padme, who was known as Queen Amidala instead of Padme I, Queen of Naboo. Sheev's daughter was going to be crowned Empress Pallopides instead of Empress Ederlathh, Galactic Empress.

    With Leia Organa, she was known as Princess Leia the same as real life naming conventions, though it seems like she's one of the few and she was called 'Princess Organa' too, just not as much. Roan Fel was called Emperor 'Fel' instead of Roan, Marasiah assumed the title of Empress Fel and was addressed as such and so on, so forth.

    I think the reason for the difference may be because with Europe, there were alot of Wilhelms, Henries etc who also happened to be Kings and/or Emperors. In the case of the SW Galaxy, while there's a ton of Sheev Palpatines running around, there's only one known Palpatine who is the Galactic Emperor. That or maybe with the life expectancy rate of the Galaxy a dynasty isn't expected to last very long, with only the Fels looking like they'll be the ones to shift that.

    So what's the deal? Is there some sourcebook that I missed that explains it, or an obscure reference maybe?
     
  2. Lugija

    Lugija Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 3, 2009
    I don't have an answer to your question, but I want the Imperials to use "Sheev the First" now instead of "The Emperor".
     
    DurararaFTW and cthugha like this.
  3. Gorefiend

    Gorefiend Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 23, 2004
    Pretty sure the first on who does gets shot.
     
    Darth_Dreadwar likes this.
  4. LelalMekha

    LelalMekha Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 29, 2012
    Being European, I've had the habit of saying things like "Dooku, Count of Serenno" and "Leia, Princess of Alderaan," but this is my own fanon if you like. The SW franchise isn't very good with handling nobility titles and form of address, anyway. (Think of TPM, where everyone is calling Padmé -- a queen -- "Your Highness," except of course Palpatine/Ian McDiarmid, who knows better.)
     
  5. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Wacky Wednesday Host star 10 VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    "Your Grace" used to be more usual for monarchs, until fairly late. I remember reading that Henry VIII was the one who popularised "Your Majesty"
     
  6. LelalMekha

    LelalMekha Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 29, 2012
    Still, it's pretty weird how "Your Highness" is used for any royalty throughout the SW movies. Even Luke called Palpatine that way in ROTJ! (And the Emperor doesn't seem to object.) Tarkin formally referred to him as "His Imperial Majesty, Emperor Palpatine" (directly addressing him as "Your Majesty") but he was formally introduced as "His Excellency, Emperor Palpatine" in Star Wars: Republic 78: Loyalties. Governor Wilek Nereus referred to the Emperor as his "Most Excellent Imperial Master Palpatine" in at least one message.

    Recently, Luceno's Tarkin got it right by using "Your Majesty." Luke's use of "Your Highness" is rubbish.
     
    Sarge, Valin__Kenobi and Iron_lord like this.
  7. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Wacky Wednesday Host star 10 VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    It did get used historically by kings though:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highness
     
  8. LelalMekha

    LelalMekha Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 29, 2012
    I stand corrected, then. I'm more savvy of the present-day decorum than of its evolution through history. (By the way, in Tarkin, Palpatine is only addressed as "Your Majesty" by his droid, 11-4D. The others call him "my lord.")
     
  9. Ulicus

    Ulicus Lapsed Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 24, 2005
    Is it Jello's second birthday, or something?

    He wouldn't be Sheev I until there had been a Sheev II. Hence King John, Pope Francis, yada yada. You're not the first in a sequence until there is a sequence.

    Something everyone forgets when it comes to Barack Obama, might I add. :p

    Then again, ASoIaF does the whole "FIRST OF HIS NAME" thing in advance so... whatever.
     
  10. Gamiel

    Gamiel Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Dec 16, 2012
    Have we seen any use of non-english (real life) noble titles? And would people like to see any?

    "Sheev the First, Only and Eternal"
     
  11. LelalMekha

    LelalMekha Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 29, 2012
    This can never be repeated enough. I'm sick of hearing "Pope Francis the First" on TV. Oh, well... maybe practice is changing; things are just like that, they change. An interesting example is that, in French, the custom was to translate the name of a foreign monarch when the proper equivalent exists. Queen Elizabeth becomes "la reine Élisabeth," King Umberto becomes "le roi Humbert," and so on. It seems that custom has fallen into disuse, as the journalists now refer to "Felipe VI" instead of "Philippe VI" (N.B. they already did that with his father, whom they called "Juan Carlos" instead of Jean-Charles).

    If you're not into that kind of things, this may seem pretty unimportant, but this change of custom may actually break sequences. If Prince William ever becomes King of the United Kingdom and the other Commonwealth realms, the French will probably refer to him as "William V," which makes no sense since the historical Williams are all referred to as "Guillaume" in French.
     
    Gamiel likes this.
  12. cthugha

    cthugha Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 24, 2010
    This guy disagrees:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_Joseph_I_of_Austria
    ...because he was such a great leader (ahem) that OF COURSE later monarchs would be named after him. (And NO WAY was the monarchy going to collapse soon enough so his son would be the last Emperor. More so because when he was crowned they'd just gunned down the revolution of 1848 -- they needed a statement that clearly said WE WILL ENDURE.)

    Also, Edi was NOT Sheev's daughter but his grandniece or something.
     
  13. Gorefiend

    Gorefiend Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 23, 2004

    Well there is the Archduke of Geonosis which is pretty amusing if you think about it ;)


    It is complicated when it comes to Austria anyway since they had very different Emperor titles over the centuries, which were not strictly speaking in succession to each other.
     
  14. Gamiel

    Gamiel Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Dec 16, 2012
    I meant english as in the language. Some examples of non-english (real life) noble titles: erzherzog, khan, jarl, tenno, vapaaherran, marquis, vicecomes, krahv, gōng, etc.
     
    The Legions of Lettow likes this.
  15. Havoc123

    Havoc123 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 26, 2013
    There's Khan, but it's not a nobility title, rather a military rank in the Kaleesh military. Makem Te is ruled by Caliphs and Wat Tambor had the title of Emir. Shaman is used by Nightsisters, Tusken Raiders, Ewoks, Wookiees, Tusken Raiders and god knows who else. Grand Vizier, an Ottoman title, was used for the head of the government of the Galactic Empire.

    It's fair to say non-English titles are used. Their origin though? Who knows. I always figure since Tionese is basically Greek, that there's SW versions of German, French, Arabic etc, it's just that they're not very widely known.

    As for the misuse of Your Highness, it's probably a case of Luke being a farmboy from Tatooine and not really knowing any other nobility besides Leia, so he probably didn't know the proper way to address Palpatine, though the form of address is usually interchangeable. I mean for the British Queen, I've heard Highness, Majesty and Excellency all used.

    Not sure if the whole 'First of his name' is used outside of ASoIaF/GoT.
     
    Gamiel and Iron_lord like this.
  16. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Wacky Wednesday Host star 10 VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    I liked the ROTJ novel's version, which had Luke address him as just "Palpatine" instead of "Your Highness" at one point - maybe symbolizing Luke's denial of Palpatine's being in any way a rightful ruler.
     
  17. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    It IS an early birthday for me!

    I'll do one of my handy lists when there are multiple things to respond to:

    I. I'm glad my name Edi for Princess Ederlathh is being popularized. But yes, as noted by cthugq -- she's the Emperor's grandniece rather than daughter.

    II. Fiction writers -- esp sci-fi -- don't really get aristocracy or royalty. They treat titles as one might treat a military rank or professional title like doctor. Baron Fel? Please! More like Lord Fel, the first Baron Fel.

    III. The use of Majesty for monarchs and Highness for princes is not a medieval thing, but it's definitely modern. As the space opera that is SW uses Victorian monarchy as its touchstone, following those rules is fitting and proper.

    IV. They've gotten better about it. We see HIM used for Palpatine a lot lately. John Ostrander noticeably fixed it in Legacy when I complained about earlier issues getting it wrong. WEG always had it right, naturally.

    V. The whole First thing is tricky. Napoleon used it even before his son took the throne (briefly) but given how atypical his monarchy was and given his colossal ego, I don't know if we can use that as precedent. Francis I of Austria also used it, but that was to distinguish himself from... himself, as Francis II of the HRE.

    VI. Really wish Dooku was just called Serenno. Sounds better, too.

    VII. Even the Rebels call HIM the Emperor, I_L. Of course he's the rightful ruler.


    Missa ab iPhona mea est.
     
    King of Alsakan and Ulicus like this.
  18. Ulicus

    Ulicus Lapsed Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 24, 2005
    You would enjoy the Lymond Chronicles.
     
    The Loyal Imperial likes this.
  19. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    dammit not you too. :p

    I have the first book. Made it partway through it. I'm told it gets much better later in the book. Just struggling for now.

    But yes that series is part of my mountains of recommendations to get through. Considering I read a minimum of an hour each day, the fact that I never make a dent in that list is a sign of how long it is :p


    Missa ab iPhona mea est.
     
  20. Ulicus

    Ulicus Lapsed Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 24, 2005
    Oh I can't get through the first book, either. :p

    I find the prose really odd.
     
    GrandAdmiralJello likes this.
  21. The Loyal Imperial

    The Loyal Imperial Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 19, 2007
    We have. The Swokes Swokes have a Congress of Caliphs, something that I hope that we will not, under any circumstances, ever see the likes of again.
     
    cthugha likes this.
  22. Gorefiend

    Gorefiend Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 23, 2004
    He Swokes Swokes are really cool :(
     
    Findswoman likes this.
  23. The Loyal Imperial

    The Loyal Imperial Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 19, 2007
    It is odd, but the important thing is that it doesn't stay odd. The rest of the book (and the series) are written much more normally.
     
  24. Gamiel

    Gamiel Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Dec 16, 2012
    Why?
     
  25. Findswoman

    Findswoman The Fanfic Mod in Pink star 5 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Feb 27, 2014
    Also, the Kiffar Guardians have a sheyf, which I'm almost certain is a portmanteau of "sheikh" and "chief."

    And I agree that it would be cool to see more of the Swokes Swokes.