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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Non Spoiler Forum Brouhaha...Big Question Marks

Discussion in 'Communications' started by Fatboy_Roberts, Apr 1, 2001.

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  1. Lord_Grendel

    Lord_Grendel Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Feb 19, 2001
    For my part, i hope this whole thing can just be forgotton. And im happy to see Vertical come in and give a good response to the situation. Ill let Ternian know hes not permanantly banned. I hope we can just forget this happened.
     
  2. Kyle Katarn

    Kyle Katarn Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 10, 1998
    I see. Thanks for paraphrasing everything.

    Personally, I tend to agree with a temp ban. Ternian was clearly told to stop posting the updates and he didn't. While this doesn't warrant a permanent or IP ban, a temporary ban of 24-48 hours should suffice.
     
  3. Lord_Tiron

    Lord_Tiron Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Jan 28, 2001
    Kyle Katarn.He didn't post in the thread after the oficial warning. He was banned because he defended himself against DLM's statement to him.
     
  4. Kadue

    Kadue Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 20, 2000
    "I do remember telling you not to mention or even allude to spoilers in this forum, Ternian."

    DLM posted that when she closed the v2 thread.
     
  5. Darth Dark Helmet

    Darth Dark Helmet Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Dec 27, 1999
    This is why I stay out of NSA, in SA we have simple things, like redundency, flaming and trolling. None of this drama.

    ;)
     
  6. Missninfan

    Missninfan Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    May 6, 2000
  7. Obi Anne

    Obi Anne Celebration Mistress of Ceremonies star 8 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 4, 1998
    I have a little question for the admins and mods. When Ternian gets back, which he seems to do, would he be allowed to start a similar topic in, let's say the misc.

    That thread was one of my favourites, but if it can't be in th NS, could you please allow it somewhere else. I would never myself go into PS, because I don't want to get spoiled by the titles.
     
  8. Lord_Tiron

    Lord_Tiron Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Jan 28, 2001
    If anyone feels Dark Lady Mara is right, perhaps you should check out this thread where discusses and encourages discussion of the opening scrawl provided by Sith Interceptor:

    BEWARE MAJOR SPOILERS-

    http://boards.theforce.net/message.asp?topic=1805257&replies=63&page=2

    Now show me where Ternian has posted ANYTHING to that calibre?

     
  9. Kyle Katarn

    Kyle Katarn Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 10, 1998
    Why do soap operas need writers when they can come here and use the situations we get ourselves into for material???
     
  10. Kadue

    Kadue Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 20, 2000
    No offense Tiron, but did you read some of our posts? I know that I'm not saying he should be banned for spoilers, I haven't seen all of his posts, I was offering a reason other than spoilers as to why he was banned. And that is similar to what some of the others are saying.
     
  11. Lord_Tiron

    Lord_Tiron Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Jan 28, 2001
    kadue yeah I read the entire thread.

    However DLM only banned him when he replied to her post, which according to Ternian was a reply to his PM to her on the closure of the two threads in question. So he has taken the matter to her through PM and she has replied publicly.

    She only threatened to ban him if he posted spoilers - not if he posted. there we no spoilers in Ash77's thread posted by him or anyone, for that matter.
     
  12. Kadue

    Kadue Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 20, 2000
    Okay, I don't know the entire story because I only lurk in NS. I have always found DLM to be fair, so that is why I am asking.
     
  13. Sith Interceptor

    Sith Interceptor Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 22, 1999
    I've only come across this latest 'carnival act'just now and what I've seen so far has me shaking my head.

    Dark Lady Mara should lose her adminship for banning Ternian.

    What a joke.
     
  14. Sith Interceptor

    Sith Interceptor Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 22, 1999
    Lord Trion is absolutely right!!!!!

    Check out that thread he has linked to. She basically rewords the opening scroll after some flimsy warning - IN THE NS FORUM NO LESS!!!!!!

    Wake up and smell what you're brewin'. THIS STINKS!!!!!!
     
  15. AlphaWolf

    AlphaWolf Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Feb 27, 2000
    ok ok. Banning him was unnecessary but Demotion? Please, leave it out.

     
  16. ...and justice for MAUL

    ...and justice for MAUL Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Jan 31, 2000
    I love a bit of brouhaha....
     
  17. Vertical

    Vertical Former Head Admin star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Apr 6, 1999
    Demoting DLM is a ridiculous notion. You're already assuming that the matter is over and that DLM is completely in the wrong. That hasn't even been established yet.

    Not only that, but even if that were true, we've ALL made mistakes. One error in judgement is no reason for demotion. People are supposed to be able to LEARN from mistakes, and demoting her would simply be pointless.

    Now... Onto the issue. I do NOT know if I've got everything straight, but from what I can see, I think the ban may have been a little premature. Why? Well, before I start, I want to establish a point. Feel free to disagree, though:

    POINT:

    The Non-Spoiler Forum exists to provide a safe-house, if you will, from spoiler material. Anyone should feel comfortable going in there and reading *everything* that is written. The founding principle behind that forum, and what makes that forum WORK, is the idea that absolutely every single one of those threads are safe discussions for people avoiding any and all spoilers. Thus, one doesn't necessarily need to post a spoiler to break the rules of that forum - one only needs to crack the security of the feel of 'non-spoilers'. If there is even a hint of a spoiler, the "safe feel" has been compromised. People get antsy. Whether or not spoilers were posted, people's peace of mind has been disrupted, and that's the SELLING point of the forum. Thus, if you disrupt the *safe feel* of the forum, I'd consider that grounds for a warning. If you've been warned and you continue to disrupt that feel ***even if you don't think you are disrupting anything... it's the mod's call***, that's grounds for a ban. How long a ban is up to the mod.

    I just wanted to establish what I believe to be the concept of the "Safe Feel" for the NS forum.

    Now, onto my view on the banning:

    1) Ternian had posted a thread of that nature before, with no repurcussions.
    ***
    HOWEVER, (and I can't stress this point enough) DLM has *every* right to shift the policy regarding those threads at any time she feels it appropriate. Just because the thread had been open a while doesn't give it the right to exist permanently. Remember the social threads in the SA forum? The biggest problem eliminating those was everyone was saying "But this thread has been around for 2000 responses! It wasn't against the rules yesterday!!" It's irrelevant. A policy shift was necessary, and so it was made. If DLM made the decision that those threads were potentially harmful to the safe feel of the Non-Spoiler forum, so be it, she has every right to not permit them.
    ***

    2) DLM decided that the threads were bordering on inappropriate. This was HER call, not Ternian's. If he had a problem with her decision, he should have contacted her or the rest of the admins to discuss the issue, before pressing it further. Ternian claims to have sent an email to the admins. I have seen no such email. Now, that doesn't mean he didn't write one. It just means I didn't see one. If he *did* write an email, it only strengthens his case, so it's irrelevant for me, since I already think he's the victim of a simple misunderstanding here.

    3) Ternian's one error in judgement was posting in the other version of the thread, after the first one had been closed. Obviously, DLM didn't just 'accidentally' close the other thread. She had a reason, but Ternian disregarded that gesture, and posted in another version of the same thread. He messed up there, no doubt in my mind. However, it doesn't *appear* (and I could VERY well have my facts and my chronology mixed up) that DLM banned him for posting in that second version. It appears that he was banned in the "Let Ternian Speak" thread.

    **IF** that is the case, and **IF** I have those facts right, I think DLM simply made a mistake in banning him then. He was doing nothing there but asking for an explanation. Ternian is NOT the one with the Burden of Proof in this scenario. It is up to DLM to provide the proof to the spoilers, **OR** the case where Ternian violated the "safe feel" of the forum - which he MAY have done.

    The
     
  18. Mr. P

    Mr. P FanFic Archive Editor, Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Apr 1, 2000
    What vert said.

    --Mr. P :cool:
     
  19. Dark Lady Mara

    Dark Lady Mara Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 19, 1999
    I will copy out the post I just made to the admins' forum.

    ***************

    There is no question Ternian deliberately disobeyed my numerous requests. This was far from his first warning. I PMed him multiple times, once about the first "spoiler-free" report (which was of course laden with flat-out spoilers), once about the "Nostradamus" thread (which contained thinly-veiled spoilers written in the form of riddles, which are of course no better than spoilers stated flat-out), and once about his behavior in general. The earliest of these warnings were sent out over a month ago. Ternian acknowledged all of them, indicating he knew his behavior was inappropriate. In addition to my warnings, a number of other members asked him on several occasions whether certain ideas Ternian had passed off as his own speculation were in fact spoilers. He always laughed the accusations off, although I know as a fact that he was indeed posting disguised spoilers. After my three PMed warnings (and Windy's comment "Why oh why must you continue to post spoilers where we so obviously don't want you?"), Ternian reluctantly agreed to leave NS at my urging - only to resurface again during my leave of absense.

    After seeing the shameful state the non-spoiler forum had fallen to when I returned two weeks later, I decided to crack down on spoilers. This time, all of my warnings to Ternian were made publically. I told him more times than I can count that in NS "We do not discuss spoilers, we do not allude to them, we do not even acknowledge their existence." I even told him TWICE that this was his last chance to shape up his behavior. I told him I did not mind his remaining in NS as long as he abided by the No discussions-no allusions-no acknowledgement rule, but he just ignored me. He started version 2 of his so-called "Non-spoiler report", which was again laden with spoilers, and I locked it telling him it was in violation of my stipulation. So what did he do when I locked his thread? He upped the original Non-spoiler report and continued THE SAME DAMN DISCUSSION I had just told him was inappropriate. At last, after I locked that thread, he retreated to the "Let Ternian Speak" thread and continued mouthing off. So, I finally banned him.

    No other user would receive so many second chances. Ternian doesn't deserve a simple spank. We have never had a worse serial troublemaker in NS as long as I have been here. I can't tell you how many PMs I have received from non-spoiler members complaining that Ternian was ruining Episode 2 for them and begging me to stop his reign of terror.

    After so many warnings given in vain, I realized the only way I could ever get Ternian to stop posting spoilers in NS was to physically restrain him. He will remain banned until he can convince me that he has attained maturity enough to either play by the rules, or stay out of NS forever.

    *****************
     
  20. Dark Lady Mara

    Dark Lady Mara Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 19, 1999
    Point of information.

    ********************

    FROM THE "OPENING CRAWL" THREAD IN THE NS FORUM:

    Well, let's see. This thread is dated late January and early February, which was before the crackdown I made when I returned from my leave of absense at the end of February. The rules I made at that time did not go retroactively. Let me summarize the historical progression of the rules for those who are not familiar with the history of NS.

    Up until mid-February 2001: The rules in NS are very lax. I allow almost any mild spoilers to slip by as long as the person posting them gives warning first, and leaves a sufficiently large "spoiler space."

    Mid February to End February: I take a brief sabbatical. Other admins check in on this forum from time to time, but scum and villainy rapidly become rampant. Every other thread is either a piece of trolling nonsense, or is laden with spoilers.

    End February: I return from my vacation to see the sad state of NS. Thus, the new SPOILER CRACKDOWN begins. I post a thread containing the forum rules, and start telling users they are no longer allowed to mention or allude to spoilers in this forum AT ALL - spoiler space or not, warning or not. All questionable threads started since that date have been locked.

    Keep your dates straight here. The new rules were not retroactive. Threads that were no longer on the front page when I began my crackdown, were ignored. Threads that have come up since I began my crackdown have been strictly regulated. No de facto. However, now that you have upped this thread[the opening crawl thread], it should be locked as well because it is in violation of current rules. As soon as your discussion of my competence as an administrator is finished, I will be happy to close this thread as well.

    ****************
     
  21. No blasters!

    No blasters! Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 14, 2000
    Well that's coherent and clear.
     
  22. Vertical

    Vertical Former Head Admin star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Apr 6, 1999
    Given the new info from DLM (thanks!), and after investigating all relevent threads more thoroughly, I can say that I agree that Ternian crossed a line that had already been established, after he had been warned not to do so. Thus, I agree with his banning, but I'd say that it should simply be a short-term ban, as perhaps this is what he needed to realize the serious-nature of the spoiler policy.

    That said, I still think the *timing* of the ban could have been a little better, as Ternian was simply defending himself at the time of his ban.

    Vertical
     
  23. The Mentos® Strikes Back

    The Mentos® Strikes Back Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 4, 2000
    I side with DLM on this one 100%.
     
  24. Mace Windy

    Mace Windy Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 3, 1999
    I also agree with Mara 100% on this matter as well. I wish I could have visited this thread earlier (the title doesn't make much sense) to state for the record that yes, Terinan was posting spoilers. They may not have been there directly, but it didn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what they meant. Do I think that Terinan should be permanantly banned? No. I am sure Terinan is a fine SPOILER FORUM member. I do however, think that Terinan should be banned from ever posting in the NS forum again if this would be at all possible.



    :cool:Mace Windy,
    windier than the windiest wind!

    I HAVE THE RIGHT TO REMAIN UNSPOILED!
     
  25. Obi Anne

    Obi Anne Celebration Mistress of Ceremonies star 8 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 4, 1998
    You admins haven't answered my question yet, would a thread like the non-spoiler report be allowed somewhere else, so that we who like the thread could read it, but it wouldn't ruin the safe feeling of NS?

    After reading this I must say that this is the first time I'm bitter during my time here on the JC, but I must admit that DLM has a point and maybe took the right desicion.
     
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