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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Non Spoiler Forum Brouhaha...Big Question Marks

Discussion in 'Communications' started by Fatboy_Roberts, Apr 1, 2001.

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  1. ami-padme

    ami-padme Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 19, 1999
    Then, in the list of spoiler rules, I guess we need to add "any unattributed quote between two SW characters that could theoretically take place during Ep. II or III." Just in case someone up and quotes a fic or something without offering an immediate explanation of their (non-spoiler) sig. To make sure know one feels "spoiled" by a made-up line.
     
  2. farraday

    farraday Jedi Knight star 7

    Registered:
    Jan 27, 2000
    But is that clear?

    Is a fake spoiler ipso facto as bad as a real one?

    I think we'd all agree that if someone started a thread with the words "NOT TO BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY" and then went on to expose about how he'd snuck onto the set and told about all the wonderful things he'd seen would be fine as long as he was making it up and not throwing in actual spoiler.

    However, if someone did the same thing without the warning must the punishment not be the same as if it was real spoilers?

    Even if later someone came in and said none of that happens then you immediately cut off an avenue of speculation.

    In the Episode 2&3(spoilers not allowed) forum, it seems clear to me that every spoiler either real or imagined must get the same punishment to protect the sanctity of the forum.

    Presenting a lie as the truth means you have to be responsible for it as if it were the truth.

    At least thats how I see it.
     
  3. yodaman

    yodaman Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 26, 1999
    Well the fact is he never claimed it was a quote from the movie. That was just an assumption made. If he said, "This is a quote from the movie," and then later said, "Just kidding," then you might have a point. People in the non-spoiler forum just assumed.
     
  4. farraday

    farraday Jedi Knight star 7

    Registered:
    Jan 27, 2000
    But that is the logical assumption to make.

    A. Hes from the spoiler forum.
    B. He gives out tidbits of almost spoilers like candy.
    C. He has made several slips before giving out spoilers. (Incident with Hew and another where his post was edited)

    Therefore the lines of conversations in his signiture are most likely from the movie.
     
  5. ami-padme

    ami-padme Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 19, 1999
    People shouldn't get in trouble because of other people's assumptions, IMHO.
     
  6. Darth Dark Helmet

    Darth Dark Helmet Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Dec 27, 1999
    You know what when you assume...
     
  7. yodaman

    yodaman Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 26, 1999
    Now you're really reaching. You can't say he did something bad just because he put in a quote that people in the non-spoiler forum can "logically" assume is an actual quote from the movie. That's taking paranoia to a whole new level.
     
  8. farraday

    farraday Jedi Knight star 7

    Registered:
    Jan 27, 2000
    You're right, it's not fair.

    But until you can devine some perfect way for people to identify a spoiler with out knowing the upcoming movies better the George lucas himself I ask what other way is there then to punish harshly something that even appears to be a spoiler?

    Lets talk about Paranoia.

    Just this Sunday Jan go fetch posted two thread under innocous names that contained what I can only assume where line fragments and whole plot points.

    When at any moment someone can barge in and make a merry hash of your trying to stay unspoiled it tends to make you paranoid wouldn't you think?
     
  9. Lord_Grendel

    Lord_Grendel Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Feb 19, 2001
    Is it worth banning him over? no.
     
  10. Lord_Grendel

    Lord_Grendel Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Feb 19, 2001
    "..punish harshly something that even appears to be a spoiler? "

    Youre kidding..
     
  11. Darth Dark Helmet

    Darth Dark Helmet Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Dec 27, 1999
    Ask the person. If whatever it is, is a spoiler, make them change it, if its not, get on with your life. There should be no punishment for it.
     
  12. farraday

    farraday Jedi Knight star 7

    Registered:
    Jan 27, 2000
    I can't speak as to the entire decision to ban him.

    Obviously I am not an admin and will never be one.
    However now that you appear(back to appearnce theory) to agree with my point that a spoiler and a fake spoiler are equally as bad and that his sig was a fake spoiler what are your other objections?

    please dont try and impress me with long speeches either.
     
  13. farraday

    farraday Jedi Knight star 7

    Registered:
    Jan 27, 2000
    Lord Grendel go back and think through my arguement, tell me where it falls apart in your obviously humble opinion.

    How many sigs did Terian go through that he never got the idea that a fake spoiler can be just as damaging as a real one.
     
  14. yodaman

    yodaman Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 26, 1999
    The way you do it is give the poster the benefit of the doubt and assume it's not a spoiler. Believe me, I've been in that forum long enough to see things like that happen. If it's not a spoiler, no fuss will be made about it. If it is a spoiler, someone, perhaps myself or some person from the spoiler forum who occasionally visits NS, will notify an admin and the person will be dealt with. That makes a lot more sense than going on some great witch hunt. You're basically running under the old Salem rule. If someone's accused of being a witch, then dump her in the river. If she survives then she's a witch, if she drowns then obviously she wasn't. Not a good way to run things. Innocent til proven guilty is what I say.
     
  15. Lord_Grendel

    Lord_Grendel Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Feb 19, 2001
    What did he do to deserve banning again?
     
  16. farraday

    farraday Jedi Knight star 7

    Registered:
    Jan 27, 2000
    yodaman that theory has one main problem.

    let me first restate your arguement as I understand it.

    if a person posts something that appears to be a spoiler but isn't it should be allowe dot stand, however if someone posts something that is a spoiler it should be immediately deleted.

    What does that lead to?
    Person A makes a post which after a few hours (which seems like the approximate time it take to contact an admin and get a thread deleted) it disappears, doesn't that mean everyone who has read it automatically knows they've been spoiled?

    Person b posts a pretend spoiler which, under your conditions would not be deleted, it then stands to reason that people know it is a fake spoiler and that avenue of discussion is unworthy of thinking about.

    THE nSA is about keeping all avenues open, how does your plan allow for that?


    I'm not saying other approaches wouldn't have been more appropriate, I'm saying that a fake spoiler is as bad as a real one. And no arguement of yours has conviced me my position isn't correct or that his sig wasn't a fake spoiler.
     
  17. ami-padme

    ami-padme Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 19, 1999
    Then we might as well delete everything. How do we know that *any* piece of specualtion of any kind isn't just a potential spoiler waiting to get us? How do we know that any poster hasn't been checking out spoilers before they post? We don't. We can't. And to single out certain posters for "potential spoilage" can't be the best solution, since you can't say with any certainty that they've done something more wrong than anyone else.

    Like I said before, if this is the way it is, we'd better change the rules list to inlcude all sorts of potential spoilers, and things that sound like spoilers, things that aren't spoilers but might be assumed by some to be such...and let the people in SA know that if they post in our forum, they do so under automatic suspicion of mischief. That just sounds silly to me.
     
  18. Lord_Grendel

    Lord_Grendel Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Feb 19, 2001
    Hey farrady, how about someone asked him, and he said it was fake. Noone was spoiled. No harm was done.
     
  19. farraday

    farraday Jedi Knight star 7

    Registered:
    Jan 27, 2000
    I'm talking about spoilers and fake spoilers presented as fact, not speculation.

    I agree there is nothing you can do about a spoiler presented as speculation unless you know the poster frequents the spoilers allowed forum.

    However, you can not argue that specific lines of dialauge can be speculation, unless you're talking about the cliches of may the 'force be with you' and 'I've got a bad feeling about this' etc. etc.

    He had slipped before grendal on a spoiler in his sig(again I refer to the situation with hew) and he had then lied about it. what gaurentess would we have that he would be telling the truth when he says his sig isn't a spoiler.

    Harsh i know but what gaurentees?
     
  20. Sith Interceptor

    Sith Interceptor Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 22, 1999
    Fatboy said it best when he said a number of other avenues could have been taken, rather than flat out banning someone.
     
  21. yodaman

    yodaman Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 26, 1999
    There is an inherent difference between that scenario and the one I'm talking about. If a person posts a spoiler, whether fake or real, that at that moment he/she is suggesting that it is real. Obviously if it is real the person is banned and if it is fake then the person was trolling. The difference here is that a quote in a signature is in no way suggesting that it's real. There have also been cases where I myself jokingly made mention of spoilers in the past by saying something like "Jar Jar does a rain dance," and everyone who saw that knew right away that I was joking. Under current conditions I would now be banned because I'm partially spoiled and there's the logical chance that what I posted could be real. I would not be here at the moment of that were the case. I think when you start allowing hunches and possibilities and assumptions work against a person you only make things worse. It's no way to run a message board.
     
  22. farraday

    farraday Jedi Knight star 7

    Registered:
    Jan 27, 2000
    to take it to extremes you would have been banned true. However with some modicum of common sense we can see spoilers like "Anakin dies" are completely inane.

    However the particular non spoiler in this case had nothing to suggest that.

    Banning may have been harsh but then again I am only speaking to the issue of his sig and the spoilers and non spoilers involved therein.
     
  23. ami-padme

    ami-padme Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 19, 1999
    "I agree there is nothing you can do about a spoiler presented as speculation unless you know the poster frequents the spoilers allowed forum."

    But that's my point. The fact that a person frequents the SA forum shouldn't be a black mark or suspicion held against them when they post in our forum. Either people are welcome or they're not. Again, half the people who claim to be spoiler free could be highlighting spoiler text all over TF.n, and none of us would ever know...you can't just pick and choose who is "likely" to mess up, that inherently unfair.
     
  24. farraday

    farraday Jedi Knight star 7

    Registered:
    Jan 27, 2000
    it is I agree, but i can think of no way that protects the right of the people in the NSA forum other then that.

    BTW the person who frequented the spoiler forum would only be held accountable if his or her speculation was actually a known spoiler as verified by those honest people who go back and forth between the forums.
     
  25. yodaman

    yodaman Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 26, 1999
    The problem is that by having anything and everything that COULD have been suggested as POSSIBLY being a spoiler and hunting down anyone and everyone may or may not have done something or nothing we are leaving logic and common sense out the door. My point is don't over-react or jump the gun. If it's a real spoiler it will be dealt with. If it's not then unless the person knowingly tried to pass it off as a real spoiler it's generally means nothing.
     
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