NRW Presents: Wherefore art thou Darth?

"The Darth title was more than just a symbol of power; it was a claim of supremacy. It was used by those Dark Lords who have sought to enforce their will on the other Masters. It was a challenge?a warning to bow down or be destroyed." - Kas'im

"Someone here once told me that the Darth title was no longer used because it promoted rivalry among the Sith. It gave the Jedi an easy target. It was easier just to abandon the custom. To have all the Sith Masters use the same title of Dark Lord. But I know the truth, Qordis. I know why none of you claims the that name for yourself. Fear. You're cowards. None of the Brotherhood is worthy of the Darth title. Least of all you." - Darth Bane

Okay, ladies and gents, Uli and I have been derailing the NRW thread with this, but it's actually a discussion between the two of us that's gone back a long, long way and spanned at least two other threads. As such, I thought maybe we should respect the other discussions going on there and create a whole new thread to discuss the origins and the true meaning of what it means to claim the title of Darth amongst the Sith. I suggest taking a look at the link before contributing. I've moved my last response to Uli here.

I refer you back to Kas'im's quote, and Bane's ascent. The title is something that can be claimed.

Careful, careful. He goes to a few very specific Sith to try and find some very specific knowledge. Knowledge that may in fact be tied to the Darths' connection to the Rakata...

Here's what I think happened: as Kas'im states, it is a title that can be claimed - eventually, the claimants of the title become a sect of their own, acquiring philosophy and ethos naturally as time went on. From time to time they'd go extinct but their wisdom on how to be completely badass lived on, so that other people who claim the title or are inducted into it by others who have claimed the title can maintain their hold on supremacy through the wisdom of other completely badass Darths. What Krayt's done is gone way old school and claimed the title for himself, choosing to eschew the wisdom of the Darths before him.

Notwithstanding, if he's Pope, and no one's around to disagree except the ghosts of old Popes, he wins and is allowed to define what Catholicism is.

Yeah, dude, no way it's regular ink. It's evil ink.

Yeah, all I really meant was that if they'd known about the Darths, they'd have made themselves Darths.

 

So they think, anyway.

(And, as Arc pointed out too, I think Bane only becomes a true Darth after his instruction from Revan)

All of whom are Darths, and all of whom refer to him as a heretic or pretender*, which suggests that they've never given him any knowledge ever - especially since A'Sharad had that thing in his bonnet about reforming the Sith from well before he (assumedly) found those holocrons.

*Well, okay, Nihilus might have said: "Okay", but that's not the impression we're given.

That's... not a bad take, all things considered.

I still prefer to think that the first Darth was a guy who developed a very specific creed and philosophy that every other Darth followed. Certainly, they had their own spin on things, but the core principles remained the same. This led to their becoming badasses and led to those outside the Darth tradition looking at them and coming to the conclusion Kas'im came to.

Why are we taking the word of a man who believes wholeheartedly in Kaan's brotherhood and is a non-Darth as truth?

If he's Pope... which he's not.

He's... the Archbishop of Korriban calling himself the Pope. And yes, I know I've changed him from a methodist to an Anglican, but I'm allowed goshdarnit!

Quite probably.

Hell, I wouldn't mind if we found out they had done in Secret. (Though explaining why they kept it secret might be a problem)

Well, I think we're just going to have to disagree there.

I'm anticipating Nihl, post-holocrons, or some hidden Banite Sith to show up and say: "How DARE you claim the title of Darth in your ignorance!?" and smack him around a bit. Probably Nihl.

He killed Kol, so it stands to reason that he's going to be the Ultimate Cade Nemesis above and beyond Krayt.

I'm bringing Bloodsoup and Sith Dip!

 

Well, if Kas'im's worth his salt as a historian, he's probably working from history.

Oh, you're absolutely right. All I was doing was disagreeing with you that Krayt considers himself ignorant. He only goes to these guys because he needs something specific from them, not because he gives a damn about their opinion about how the Sith should be run or about his own legitimacy. It only turns into a philosophical discussion because of their reasons for refusing to help him.

And, as one of the possible interpretations of the Rakata origins of the word "Darth" is that it stems from the Darths' desire to "conquer death," then it's not surprising he'd turn to Darths for his particular problem.

Why thank you. I based it on my cursory knowledge of religious cults and sects and how they tend to splinter.

Also not a bad take. There's not enough concrete information to properly evaluate the Kas'im quote, I guess. I'm just taking him at his word.

Because although he believes in Kaan's brotherhood, he says nothing disparaging of the Darths. In fact, he seems to respect their power.

But that's exactly my point: so long as no one's disagreeing, and the congregants all agree, he is, for all intents and purposes, Pope. He may not be their kind of Pope, or he may not be truly Catholic, but...well...he's de facto Pope. To extend your analogy to the Church of England, imagine if Henry VIII, instead of seceding from the Church, instead conquered the Vatican and declared himself Pope.

And that's just going to be a fundamental disagreement so long as we disagree about how to interpret Kas'im's quote.

::shrug::

Great! I've got skewered puppies on the grill. Help yourself to some of the candy in that bowl - I stole it from babies.

 

Still an outsider looking in through a muddy window, though, no?

Oh, right. Oops.

Which is fair enough.

Since this started in the NRW thread, I'm trying to get my interpretion in. If the only thing barring such an interpretation is an in-universe explanation from a guy who could, concievably, not really know the ins and outs, I'm gonna take the opening.

Though I doubt this necessarily means he understand exactly what is going on. He's correctly identified a trend amongst the Darths, certainly, but I don't think it means that he has pinned down what makes them Darths, exactly. Even if he thinks he has.

But the previous Darths are disagreeing. If the Catholics could actually communicate with their deceased Popes, I think their opinion on what was and wasn't Catholic would be considered.

Similarly, if the majority of Krayt's Sith knew that their leader was referred to as pretender by the previous Darths, I don't think his position would be as secure.

I don't know, I just like thinking that "Darth Tradition = Secret Knowledge" and that it's knowledge Krayt has yet to aquire, considering the whole "We don't like you and we don't want to train you", issue.

Why couldn't that have actually happened?

Agreed. Lol.

Stolen candy is the best candy!

Oh! And you even provided the Ziostberry Juice!

 

Possibly. That really depends on whether he's right or not. If he's wrong, then yes. If he's right, then he may not be a Darth but it's true that it at least began as a claim that you are a rule. Or, more likely, it began as a title given to supreme-o Sith, and then later claimants to the title were saying that they were supreme-o so long as they could defend their claim.

Perhaps this is a good time to bring in Luke's impressions of Sith "teachings"...

Which is also fair enough.

I, too, would tend to believe he doesn't really know what goes on behind closed doors, but I doubt it's so muddy that he can't say, "Every once in a while, a guy calls himself Darth because he thinks he's the shiznit and either beats back everyone who tries to challenge him...or dies."

But the previous Darths are impotent, right now, and none of the other extant Sith seem to dispute Krayt's authenticity, so for all intents and purposes...he's Darth. You're right that Catholics would care what the Pope-Ghosts had to say. I was throwing out a hypothetical where they didn't...just like the current Sith don't seem to question Krayt's claim.

This is true. But that doesn't mean he can't rightfully claim the title, just that the other ones think he's stupid for doing so.

I agree there's a heritage and a secret knowledge, I just don't think it's necessarily wrong that Krayt can claim the title and start his own tradition. To me the Sith have always appeared to be a culture of What I Say Goes Until Someone Can Kill Me.

Heh.

Anyway, my point is that so long as everyone respected Henry's new authority as Pope, all his reforms would become Catholicism.

And I've got Kiara marinading in the fridge. Ben bro

 

More or less my view here. It doesn?t matter if Krayt deserves to be a Sith by any old slandered. He's the almighty one, he gets to define what makes someone a Darth, no one else can, because no one else has the power to do so any longer, they might have had once upon a time. But their time is past and their power broken. Such is the way of the Sith.

Hope you thought to bring some Twilek Slave girls, we need something to eat all this off. Ohh, and here's some cutlery for you, and here's some hunks of meat from Leia's corpse for you, cut them myself with my very own blade. Just hope her daughter doesn?t track us down, she has an annoying habit of being very painful for any would be Darth?s. That fool Krayt would be dead in 5 seconds flat if she was still around in that time. Ahh for the good old days when we could slaughter and pillage without Jedi interference.

 

And that's basically the way I see it always having worked. The thing is, successful Darths were always the ones that realized the futility of trying to deny what they really were, and instead embraced the treachery and lust for power inherent to their Order. Successful Darths were then able to pass that wisdom on. Unsuccessful Darths were destroyed. I think the reason for my thinking in this way has to do with the utter practicality of this particular point of the ehtos - it's not spiritual or esoteric, it's merely a lesson in maintaining power. Thus, I don't see it as wrong that Krayt can be a Darth as long as he can manage to not be killed, it's just that the others are bound to see him as a pretender because he's denying something that they believe in with the certainty of truth; he's not worthy of the Darth title because he's not willing to do what it takes to keep it. It probably also has to do with his willingness to bestow the title on all comers, which is a perversion of the titles' significance.

I'm posting an awful lot today because...I don't want to start my homework. I tried to wait for someone else to respond, but...well, procrastination waits for no man. Which is ironic.

 

I'll chime in with some deeper thoughts later on but first...a quick question.

In Krayt's new Sith....do the Apprentices use names or are they simply "Apprentice"? In Legacy #2 Talon isn't called by any name until she is given the title of Darth Talon by Krayt himself. Are we to assume that she is a special case because she is bound to become one of Krayt's hands or do all Sith get "Inducted" and named by Darth Krayt?

 

I think it's yes either way. If he's wrong, yes. If he's right, then his assumption was correct.

Well, whether we go with you or me, he's right on that. Every once in a while, a guy DOES call himself Darth, DOES think he's the shiznit and DOES beat back everyone who challenges him... or dies.

It's just a question as to whether or not they declare themselves Darth just because they think they're the shiznit.

I'm trying to reimagine the Sith as an Order where there are plenty of mystery cults with their own specific secrets and knowledge that they don't share with outsiders. Darths, Darzus, Darsomething elses... with the Darths simply being the most successful and powerful of these traditions.

Krayt has started his own tradition that is, thusfar, very successful... it could quite possibly be shown to be greater than the Darth tradition, for all I know. Krayt is well within his rights to slam the Darths for suggesting that he's not the Dark Lord: he is the Dark Lord by virtue of his strength and power. He decides what is Sith and what is not Sith... but that doesn't mean he can decide what is and is not "Darth" - at least in my opinion.

I think he's co-opted the name because of its association with powerful Sith, rather than for the "right" reasons - which he may or may not be aware of, but I'm guessing he's not. Which further enrages the Darth-Sith of ages past.

The Darth title, as Kas'im says, is more than a symbol of power... and I think more than he even knew.

But if he's not an inheritor of the heritage and secret knowledge - as I believe - then I would say it is wrong for him to claim the title.

It's certainly not out of character for him to do so, and I think it makes alot of practical sense for him to do so. Nevertheless, I will still see him as an illegitimate bearer of that specific mantle.

I think it's more: "How I Choose To Apply The Sith Teachings Goes Until Someone Can Kill Me"

It is the right of the Dark Lord to define what it is to be a Sith... within reason. No Dark Lord, however, would throw out the Sith Code/teachings. They might reinterpret them or add their own creeds on top of them... but, without them, they wouldn't be Sith.

A powerful Dark Jedi who knows of the Sith but has never studied their ways, who cannot be defeated by anyone, and who rises in a time where there are no Sith would not be in their rights to call themselves a Sith. They may very well do so and in time their own Order might very well become known as "Sith". But they would not ever be the Sith... and they would always be an illegitimate Sith Order.

I think the same thing has happened with Krayt and Darth.

If you do not follow the teachings/secrets of the Darth sect and replace them with your own, you're not a legitimate Darth. You're something else.

Krayt isn't a practitioner of the Darth tradition, as far as I can see. He's a Dark Lord who has co-opted the "Darth" name and started his own tradition. He can SAY it's the Darth tradition until he's blue in the face, but it's not the Darth tradition.

It's "the Kraytian Darth Tradition That Goes Against The Real Darth Tradition".

 

Your missing the point. the Darth "tradition", (as you call it), is, (IMHO), whatever the current most powerful Sith alive defines it to be.

Thus at the current time Krayt's tradition of defining a Darth is the correct one, and the old tradition is wrong. Once upon a time The old system was the new and it was right and Krayt?s would have been wrong. But those who created and enforced the old method simply no longer exist. Thus their viewpoint is effectively irrelevant IMHO. Their traditions are meaningless, again IMHO.

To use a Jedi example.

Once upon a time it was considered wrong to fall in love if you where a Jedi. Now after ten's of thousands of years Luke has dropped that. The old system at the time it existed was right and Luke's future viewpoint would be wrong. Now in Luke's time it's the other way round. The Jedi traditions regarding Attachment are not absolute, (IMHO). The right or wrong nature of a way of dealing with them is determined solely by the individual who is in charge of the Jedi order. How it was done previously has no actual effect on how right or wrong the current method of doing it is.

Remember all this IS IMHO, let's keep this civil.

 

Then there's nothing traditional about it.

Fair enough.

Still, I'm curious to see your response to what I posted about the powerful, unbeatable Dark Jedi who declares themselves a Sith. If he has no knowledge of the what it means to be a Sith, would he be a Sith simply because he cannot be taken down? That seems to be the inevitable conclusion one must come to if they employ such logic.

The Sith change and evolve, certainly, but there's a continuity there and a sharing of core precepts. Without that continuity and without the sharing of those precepts, well....

Luke hasn't, however, dropped the Jedi Code - he has reinterpreted it. I don't really consider this to be the same thing at all. The "do not love" rule is an example of a fundamentalist take on the Jedi Code, the more lax rule of Luke's (and the pre-KotOR era Jedi) is an example of a liberal take on the Jedi Code. Neither reject the Jedi Code.

What I'm suggesting is that there is specific knowledge required to be a Darth that Krayt does not have, and thus he is a pretender to that one title. He is, of course, the rightful Dark Lord of the Sith.

Everything BobaMatt has said has been excellent, however, and I really like his own interpretation and thoughts as to what the significance of "Darth" could be. In fact, I only like my own a little bit more.

I don't recall not being civil. If I don't post a smiley face, it doesn't mean I'm being rude.

 

I love really long uber posts.

Disagree. If he's right, there's no reasons to assume that he's simply assuming.

I'm suggesting that being the shiznit traditionally entails a certain ethos, but doesn't necessarily entail it.

I think you're right, and there's canon to suggest it is, but my intention in this thread is to examine and speculate based on the material we have.

Ah.

Okay, I think I'm beginning to see one of our issues. It's, again, related to Kas'im. According to his quote, the title of Darth is something that is claimed. The practicality of much of their ethos, that is, their beliefs on power, makes me think that they are more of an outgrowth of their experience on how to be a successful Darth rather than a fundamental element of being a Darth. Traditionally, the title means Me FTW, and traditionally, Me FTW means I follow such and such practices when it comes to power, because that's an effective way to Win and to continue being full of Win, and to ensure that my successors are just as worthy of the Win as I am, if not more. Darth is a title you take when you're claiming leadership and superiority, and if you want to stake that claim effectively you're going to hew to the teachings of other people who have staked that claim effectively. I agree that there are teachings, but if the roots of Darth are claiming power and defending it, then there's nothing wrong with Krayt doing it and challenging people to prove him wrong, because that's what claiming to be Darth is all about. If Kas'im is to be believed, then the Darth sect grew out of people claiming to be Darths, defending that position, and then taking on apprentices and indoctrinating them in their same way of thinking. To claim yourself Darth in a vacuum, then, does not necessitate following the teachings of those that came before you. Darth Krayt has tossed out the Rule of Two, but decided to keep some other things. For example, he seems to take the doctrines on pain that we discussed in the other thread above and beyond previous Darths.

And again, I cite Kas'im in my defense, even though you don't acknowledge him as an authority lol.

I don't see the difference. A Dark Lord of the Sith enforces his will until someone who disagrees with him can force him to stop enforcing that will, which is why the Sith have gone through so many different incarnations.

 

Hey, you can't disagree that I think that! I think that!

Essentially, since Kas'im isn't a Darth, all I can think is that he has to be on the outside looking in through a foggy window. Even if he's right, he can't know that he's right? Can he?

I know. I think we both understand each other and are just keeping this up to avoid our schoolwork, personally.

I agree with your suggestion, but not if "being the shiznit" = Darth. I think the being a Darth should (and this is, obviously about what we both think should be the case rather than what is) necessarily entail access to certain secrets and knowledge.

Being the shiznit, in other words, is necessary for Darthdom... but not sufficient.

Now you've confused me.

I don't see how I can reconcile the idea of competing "Sith Schools" with what you're suggesting.

But he never actually says what the conditions needed to claim it are, just what type of Sith did claim it. That Krayt shares the same type does not mean he met the "conditions" that I would like to believe there are.

And I really like everything you say... but I just like my own stuff a little more.

Nope.

I think he's made an guess based on the trends he has noticed and that he's told Bane the truth, but that he cannot know the whole truth.

I made the distinction because, if the Sith abandon the Sith teachings, then they're not a culture of Sith any more.

In other words, there is a limit on "what I say goes".

So are you saying that this uber Dark Jedi would, indeed, be a Sith?

 

Depends. Your belief is that the Darths are a sect that Kas'im knows nothing about. My belief is that Darth is a title that can be claimed and has become a sect through an adherence to traditions. Kas'im's knowledge may not extend to the teachings of those that have claimed the title in the past, but he may very well know, as a Sith, that any Sith can potentially stand up and declare himself Darth, it's just not something you do lightly. To rephrase: I think Kas'im knows what he's talking about, he just doesn't know anything more than what he says; what's unknown to him is what happens after someone bestows the honorific upon himself, or what goes on between those that have done so and bestowed the honorific on their apprentices. Perhaps more simply: if we take Kas'im at his word, then it's possible that every Sith knows that they can claim to be Darth, but the only people that really know what being Darth is about are those who have claimed it and held onto it.

lol Sorry, that was confusing. I think there's canon to suggest that there's a number of competing philosophies, but I think for the purposes of this discussion we should leave the Darzus out of it, is what I meant.

Unless what you mean is that you can't reconcile what I just said with my opinions on Darthdom, in which case I'll clarify: there arose a series of Darths that developed a very strong opinion and outlook on how to be an uber Sith, that is, the best way to be a Darth. I'm basing this idea on what Kas'im has stated, combined with Luke's opinions that Sith philosophy is vulgar and simplistic and doesn't involve a whole lot of complicated philosophy at all. Ever so often there's a group that calls themselves Darths, and passes the title onto their apprentices, and then goes extinct. Another group comes along, claims the title, and studies the teachings of past Darths, or sometimes study the teachings and then claim the title, much like how groups of Sith rise and fall independently of one another save for the teachings learned by their founder. What I'm suggesting is that the title Darth is, technically, not synonymous with the way of thinking that has traditionally brought the Darths so much success.

[Yoda]That is why you fail.[/Yoda]



There's really not much of a point in arguing, then, I guess...so maybe we should move on to other aspects of the Darths?

So are you saying that this uber Dark Jedi would, indeed, be a Sith?[/quote]
No. What it comes down to is that I don't think the term Darth is a Sith designation and not necessarily the title of a specific school, it's just that the two are intimately tied together.

 

I know little about Belia Darzu, the "IMHO" thing was just meant to be (uh, mildly) funny.

I'll probably respond in full tomorrow. I need a little downtime from Darthtime.

 

The word "Darth" doesn't originate with Revan, so it's highly unlikely to be of Rakatan origin.

(Two words: Darth Sunshine.)

 

The later retcon that places the Rakata in direct contact with Korriban makes it likely again.

 

Speaking of the Rakata, I thought it might be a good idea to post here what I posted in the other thread about what seem to be basic tenets of the Darth tradition.

Discuss. As Ulicus pointed out, the Rakata did experiments with the midi-chlorians, which might have something to do with Sith Alchemy...

 

Darth Krayt does seem to like his titles as he uses Dread Lord as well.

The problem I have with Krayt's people in the main is the same as with the Brotherhood of Darkness. They all seem to be happy with status quo. Each has their place and seem quite happy with it.

When I look at Bane at first he seems impresssed by the Brotherhood but is drawn into a quest by the knowledge of the Dark Lords in the archives.

In Dark Lord it takes Sidious to draw Vader into full Sithness.

The basic tennants of the Sith aren't fully encouraged by either organisation.

I like the idea of the Darth's being like the illumintae of the Sith.

When I look at Krayt's order/BoD I see a lot of Ventriss-a-likes and a few more powerfull Lords.

 

It seems that to share the title with so many is a perversion of that title's original power, yes. This might, of course, be intentional on Krayt's part.

 

It seems a good way to keep everyone sweet for the short term at least. While the galaxies being conquered and happy. Once things start to settle down all the old problems reappear.

On the subject of the Rakata could it be possible that they artificially created Midi-Chlorians so the slave races could use Rakata technology. If they could create Midi-Chlorians it's not that much of jump to say they could be programmed maybe into creating life?

 

As the Rakata themselves were Force sensitive, it's probably more likely that the Rakata discovered midi-chlorians, and manipulated them.

 

Sorry was getting carried away I meant manipulated/altered the Midichlorians. It's possible the Midichlorians were Rakata specific until altered and released into the slave populus.

I love this idea. The only problem is I figure something happened to Palpatine before his disfigurements as it seems a little late in the day to be his "trial of pain". Although there could be tattoos under the robe and just not the face due to the secrecy of the Sith.

 

Interesting theory. Not for this thread, but the midi-chlorians thread would probably sap this up like Jeff Goldblum sapped up sugar-water in the remake of The Fly.

Don't ask. That image was awful.

Agreed about Palpatine. Dooku, too. The thing with Palpatine is that, since we don't know that he has tattoos beneath his robes, we can still include him in case he doesn't.

Anyway, one of the reasons I hated the idea that Zabrak's in general tattooed their faces was because of how cool Maul's tattoos were. I wanted to make sure they were Sith tattoos not just Zabrak. Luckily, it seems that it worked out and, while Zabrak's routinely tattoo themselves, those tattoos have nothing to do with Maul's.

Also, found this, and it made me very happy.
[image=http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images/a/aa/Phobos.jpg]
Darth Phobos has facial tattoos.

 

Okay, a slightly larger response this time.

Well, not necessarily nothing, but certainly not everything, yeah.

I'd readily accept that any Sith can stand up and declare themselves "Darth". I'm just not convinced I want to accept that every Sith has a real right to do so. As you're aware, the whole point of inventing a "Darth Tradition", for me, is to make them an uber sect within the Sith who view their way as the true path to power. I want "Darzu" to be another tradition, another sect within the Sith who view their way as the true path to power.

All the sects, in other words, should be concerned with being the best. If the only thing Darth "really" means is:

"I consider myself the best and I'm going to destroy anyone who says otherwise"

Then the whole concept and point of "Sith Sects" that I'm so fond of crumbles to dust. If Darth isn't a title that requires a certain "secret knowledge", philosophy and outlook then I don't see the point in all the Dark Lords of the Sith not taking it.

"I say what I like, because I'm a Darth" is less interesting to me than "I say what I say because I'm a Darth, which means I know things you do not."

The former is just what every Dark Lord of the Sith does, pretty much.

There's no reason for there not to be many different simplistic philosophies that certain sects follow and others don't, however.

Though, actually, I think the problem with how I've been explaining myself is that I've focused far too heavily on the "phisosophy/ethos" and let the other thing that's absolutely vital to my conception of the Darth tradition fall by the wayside: the idea of "secret knowledge".

I like to look at the "Darth Tradition" as a mystery cult. You're not a Darth until you're inititated into that mystery cult, any more than you'd be an initiate of the Cult of Osiris until you're inititated into it. If it were up to me, there would exist specific secrets, knowledge and techniques that were only shared between the Darths and were required for one to be able to legitimately bear the title. I want "Darth" to mean something beyond "I'm the big dawg, bow down sucker!" because "Dark Lord of the Sith" already has that covered.

Considering that, you can surely see why I will view Krayt as an illegitimate Darth until we get some solid information on what the real "Darth requirements" - if any - are, ri