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Kenobi Obi-Wan Kenobi - Part 3 - Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV- Current and Future Shows' started by Todd the Jedi , May 31, 2022.

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Grade the Episode

Poll closed Jun 8, 2022.
  1. 10

    30.7%
  2. 9

    24.1%
  3. 8

    19.6%
  4. 7

    12.6%
  5. 6

    4.5%
  6. 5

    3.0%
  7. 4

    1.5%
  8. 3

    1.5%
  9. 2

    1.0%
  10. 1

    1.5%
  1. DarthDarthyDarth2

    DarthDarthyDarth2 Jedi Master

    Registered:
    Aug 26, 2006
    I think part of it is that people have grown to see bad guys as cool instead of seeing them as villains. Bad guys do bad guy things.
     
  2. Alpha Cloudleaper

    Alpha Cloudleaper Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Dec 28, 2015
    I see what you're saying but it's Disney. They tend to break canon when they want to.
     
  3. TCF-1138

    TCF-1138 Anthology/Fan Films/NSA Mod & Ewok Enthusiast star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Sep 20, 2002
    It's not Disney, it's Lucasfilm. And they've been a lot more careful with canon in recent years than Lucas ever bothered to be. "Continuity is for wimps", as Lucas once famously told Filoni.
     
  4. Master Jedi Fixxxer

    Master Jedi Fixxxer Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 20, 2018
    This is simply not true.

    They just decided to completely discard about 170 novels, 500 comic books and a list of videogames from any level of canon, and rebrand it as "Legends". That by itself, is the most careless thing to do with the material and its canon level.

    Also, all of that stuff was never "Lucas canon", so Lucas actually maintained a very high level of canon at G-level. The 6 movies and the Clone Wars. His statement about continuity is not representative of his attention to detail in every single piece of work that came out during his tenure. Can't really fault him for not being able to track hundreds of books and comics and videogames and make sure that everything is consistent. And he shouldn't need to, really.

    On topic, I gave this episode a 10/10.

    No need to explain anything. It was just perfection.

    "I am what you made me" is now my favorite Star Wars line.
     
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  5. TCF-1138

    TCF-1138 Anthology/Fan Films/NSA Mod & Ewok Enthusiast star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Sep 20, 2002
    You're wrong.
    No, they didn't. They decided, rightfully, that adhering to the entirety of the expanded universe as canon would make it impossible to make movies and shows, so they reset the canon. They could then pick and choose what to bring back from the EU and make it fit, similar to what Lucas did. But unlike Lucas, they were more clear about the EU not being canon to begin with.
    Make up your mind. Did post-Lucas Lucasfilm erase the canon or was it never canon to begin with?
    So what did he mean by it, and also why does Kit Fisto look completely different between AOTC and ROTS? And why did one TCW episode end with Anakin and Obi-Wan switching glasses with Hondo's pirates so they wouldn't be drugged, only for the next episode to open with them waking up after having been drugged?
    Because continuity is for wimps, is why.
    Seriously, make up your mind.
     
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  6. Master Jedi Fixxxer

    Master Jedi Fixxxer Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 20, 2018
    Nah, I am not.
    One can support their decision to rebrand the EU as Legends if they want to of course.

    But Lucas was very clear about the levels of canon. I literally found 3 articles in 2 minutes the other day where he explains that his world and his story is the movies and The Clone Wars. And all the rest he cannot keep up with, but it also doesn't hold the same level of significance as the movies. I was never confused with the levels of canon prior to 2013, for more than a decade it was very very clear to me what's canon and what's not.

    I was careful enough to mention more than once that before DLFL removed Legends from any level of canon, it was already not at the same level as G-canon, which was the highest level prior to Disney's acquisition. It was C-canon before. And then they made it essentially equivalent to all other fan-fiction that exists.
    An improvement of visuals can hardly be considered breaking continuity, and we were clearly talking about continuity in storytelling, not in the make up or the mask of a character. Mistakes in animation are quite acceptable. It can happen. It's not like we haven't had mistakes in Disney live action that have been mentioned before numerous times. Disney has literally gone back to alter scenes. I can also start with examples such as Ahsoka's lekku, the Grand Inquisitor looking nothing like a Pau'an and so on, if we are comparing visual continuity. What's the point of this? It will never end.
    I did. I have already responded to this above:
    "I was careful enough to mention more than once that before DLFL removed Legends from any level of canon, it was already not at the same level as G-canon, which was the highest level prior to Disney's acquisition. It was C-canon before. And then they made it essentially equivalent to all other fan-fiction that exists. "

    Why should he care THAT much about the C-canon level of his universe? He cared about the G-canon, and rightfully so.
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2022
  7. TCF-1138

    TCF-1138 Anthology/Fan Films/NSA Mod & Ewok Enthusiast star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Sep 20, 2002
    Again, Lucasfilm of the past decade has made an effort -- though not always successfully -- to maintain continuity and to keep to one cohesive canon. George Lucas never bothered with that. Hence the post I originally responded to was wrong.
     
  8. Elle-Wan

    Elle-Wan Jedi Grand Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jul 11, 2004
    The Tuskens now, as they've been retconned, maybe. ...but they were a malicious species. They killed and tortured Shmi just randomly. The killed random pod racers just for entertainment. They were even torturing Boba Fett and were using him as a slave until he "impressed" them. The women and children in that camp *might* have been relatively innocent, but there's plenty of room for Anakin to believe that they're just a warlike thrill-killing race who has just captured, tortured, and murdered his mother.

    Anakin grew up on Tatooine and as a kid he was friendly to everyone. If anyone knew the nature of the "Tusken Raiders", Anakin would have known. ...also that super badass black-garbed Tusken in BOBF was a woman, and a Tusken "child" dragged two slaves out into the desert, beat them with a stick, and led one of them to his death via that sand monster.

    If Lucas truly thought of the Tuskens as a placeholder for Native Americans or something, he wouldn't have written Anakin's slaughter of them as just toeing the line of evil. He's still a hero for many years after he did that. It's because the Tusken's were intended to be a pretty evil species and only recently have they been retconned as noble savages.

    I think that's a valid point. I prefer my righteous evil motivation theory for my head cannon, but it's also just smart to not kill civilians. Hearts and minds. If that village wasn't anti-Empire before they sure are now after he just publicly murdered several of them.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 8, 2022
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  9. StoneRiver

    StoneRiver Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 6, 2004
    I get ya, but I was just going off Anakin's line in AotC, prior to the re-writing of the Tuskens.
    "I killed them. I killed them all. They're dead, every single one of them. And not just the men, but the women and the children, too. They're like animals, and I slaughtered them like animals. I HATE THEM."
    I take it from that Lucas written line that it was seriously wrong of him, and the fact that the "women and the children, too" is said in a different breath to the "And not just the men" is Lucas' way of showing that at that time of writing the women and children were to be seen as more innocent than the men, and this was Anakin's first major dark side event. During the Lucas era the women and children looked different to the men and were not seen as warriors:
    [​IMG]
    He remained a hero afterwards because he only told 2 people (that we know of), but he was clearly in turmoil over his actions that resulted from the death of his mother. The Tuskens hadn't been re-written - they were still complete heathens - but we as an audience are still supposed to be a bit shocked by his murderous doings hence the "but the women and the children, too" line.

    The Disney era has changed them to be more sympathetic and hard done by, the women are warriors too, and they all look the same. Which muddies the waters for me. As it is now, perhaps the women and children aren't as innocent as previously thought, and we as an audience are supposed to have a bit more of an understanding of them.

    When you put it all together now it's difficult to know what to think. The Lucas era Tuskens seem to be completely separate from the Disney era Tuskens.

    But I still contend that Vader, 9/10 years in the suit, stewing in his own anger all that time, no longer gives a fig who he kills, innocent or not. [face_peace]

    EDIT: I agree that Anakin killing younglings was completely out of left field and was a step too far. I mean, imagine conversation prior:
    Sidious: Right then Vader, I'll help you save Padme, but first you gotta go kill these kids.
    Anakin: You want me to kill children?
    Sidious: You want to save your wife don't you?
    Anakin: Fair enough, child murder it is then.
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2022
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  10. Pro Scoundrel

    Pro Scoundrel Socially And Emotionally Distant Mod Of New Films star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2012
    Not malicious/evil. Hostile. There's a difference. The Tuskens see all outsiders as alien invaders of their world, and therefore enemies. And they treat them that way.
    Not randomly. Not for entertainment. See above. The Tuskens are very hostile, but not for no reason. This was established in the novelizations decades ago. And it's pretty implied in the OT, unless one misses the allegory.
     
  11. Master Jedi Fixxxer

    Master Jedi Fixxxer Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 20, 2018
    I don't agree with that. I think it was totally within the context of Anakin turning completely to the dark side.

    Anakin was consumed by the dark side at that point. The dark sides corrupts, we know this. He let himself be consumed, and by the time he was marching at the Jedi Temple, all reasoning and logic and compassion had flown out of the window, much farther than Mace Windu did.

    Darth Vader also practically authorized the death of 10 billion people on Alderaan. I find it hard to believe that some people are not convinced that Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader had absolutely no problem at all killing innocent people after he turned to the dark side. And in some instances, even before. Killing the villagers in Part III of OWK was probably the most consistent thing ever for Darth Vader.
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2022
  12. StoneRiver

    StoneRiver Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 6, 2004
    Fair enough. Don't get me wrong, it's never bothered me as such, just there was such a jump in so little time. Innocent, defenceless, child murder, and he obviously knew it was wrong because he was crying about it - the fact that he has regrets doesn't seem to imply he is fully immersed in the dark side to me - not that quick. Or are you saying the dark side was in control of his actions and Anaking couldn't control it? That being said I completely get what GL was trying to convey.
    If only the Inquisitor story had started then, because those kids would have been perfect. Impressionable youngsters, all looking up to "Master Skywalker" because he saved them, trained them for years and subsequently had them doing his bidding.

    I thought Tarkin authorized Alderaan?

    [face_laugh] I like it

    We agree there
     
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  13. Bor Mullet

    Bor Mullet Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Apr 6, 2018
    It’s perfectly OK to believe the youngling murder wasn’t sufficiently setup. To me if feels like there needed to be at least another hour of Anakin’s moral compass deteriorating to justify that scene. Which is also why I long felt that the prequels should’ve consisted of four films. TPM as a prologue, and then three films depicting Anakin’s rise and fall.
     
  14. A Chorus of Disapproval

    A Chorus of Disapproval Admin & TV Screaming Service star 9 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 2003
    I think the setup was in the preceding film where... when angry at a group of people... he doesn't have a moral filter and is willing to cull through all genders and sizes because his blinding hatred is monofocused on killing everyone involved with a group he feels has wronged him.
     
  15. Bor Mullet

    Bor Mullet Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Apr 6, 2018
    I get it. But there was a stronger personal and immediate anger in that moment. It was a crime of passion basically - his mother dies of her wounds and he murders everyone in the area that he feels were responsible. The youngling murders, on the other hand, were cold and calculating. And the younglings had not done him any wrong. He kills to serve Palpatine so he can help his lover cheat death. It works on paper. But for me the switch from angry, temporary evildoer to coldly rational evildoer with a plan - part of which involves murdering young padawans in cold blood - was too abrupt.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2022
  16. Master Jedi Fixxxer

    Master Jedi Fixxxer Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 20, 2018
    I don't think it's a binary thing. It's not like we either have to assume that Anakin was fully in control of all of his actions, or that we have to assume the dark side took over and he wasn't even realizing what he was doing. It is first and foremost a collection of choices made by him, but since we have quotes that the dark side "corrupts" and "consumes" in the movies, it's fair to assume that perhaps the dark side can give an extra push. The dark side user feeds off of the power, but has to sacrifice a small part of his "soul" (so to speak), which may also lead to physical alteration.
    Well Tarkin gave the order, but I don't think the Death Star fires this beam without Vader's presence there.

    It is, but it's also perfectly fine to be convinced by it and think that it was indeed sufficiently setup. He had murdered younglings before, even if his perception of them was that they were animals, and his words and actions after he cuts Mace Windu's arm show that he completely surrenders to Palpatine, and will do anything to save Padme. I never even questioned it when he is shown to ignite his lightsaber in the youngling's room.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2022
  17. Deliveranze

    Deliveranze Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2015
    For me, the films do a decent job of tracking Anakin’s descent into committing atrocities. The descent is handled with more care than the OT did for Vader’s redemption (which isn’t the OT’s fault as the PT obviously knew where it needed to end from the start). While I never doubted Vader’s love for his son, ROTJ implies he also believes in the Jedi cause again and finds sympathy for the Rebel Alliance’s victory over fascist ideology (which Anakin also ended up finding appealing as seen in AOTC, TCW and the multimedia project) and I don’t know if I’d say Vader’s unlearning of that ideology is even achieved in a satisfying way in expanded material between ESB and ROTJ.
     
  18. The Chalk Jedi

    The Chalk Jedi Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 8, 2019
    So Part 4 doesn't reveal that Vader had some reason for letting Kenobi escape. We're just apparently supposed to believe that Vader gave up once the flames were reignited by Tala, which doesn't make sense.

    So an otherwise pretty good episode gets marred by some inexplicable action at the end.
     
  19. Sarge

    Sarge Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Oct 4, 1998
    Possibly, but, the story isn't over yet. The writers may yet find a way to pull the story out of the fire. (Ha! See what I did there?)
     
  20. Daxon101

    Daxon101 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 7, 2016
    Vader let him go because they are playing on Vaders coolness in just standing there. Its like with the Obi Wan and Vader fight. Vader does not run, and yet he constantly seems to catch up to Kenobi when out of sigh.
     
  21. A Chorus of Disapproval

    A Chorus of Disapproval Admin & TV Screaming Service star 9 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 2003
    It was incredibly reminiscent of several Vader moments where he believed he had the people he was hunting within his grasp only to have them fly away or jump to hyperspace or drop themselves down a shaft and he just stands there attempting to process how his seeming victories continually slip away.
     
  22. Master Jedi Fixxxer

    Master Jedi Fixxxer Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 20, 2018
    Out of all the possible explanations , I am going with the one where Vader was just disappointed to see Kenobi be so frail and practically a non-existent challenge for him.

    He wanted to terrorize him, which he did, and cause him pain, which he did, and possibly let him sulk in it. So he can torture him more next time, and eventually kill him.

    I think that explanation works 100% for me.
     
  23. grd4

    grd4 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 11, 2013
    Come to think of it: That happened to him quite a bit in ANH and TESB. If you strip away the fancy duds and imposing voice, Vader could be one of those perpetually-inept 80s cartoon villains.
     
  24. jaimestarr

    jaimestarr Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Yep. Those 80's cartoon villains are, largely , rooted in the mustache twirling villains of the old serial films/shows from the 30's, 40's, 50's. They perpetually provided a conflict for each episode over and over again to continue the series. SW is modeled after these films, so it makes sense.
     
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  25. A Chorus of Disapproval

    A Chorus of Disapproval Admin & TV Screaming Service star 9 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 2003
    Exactly. We have a view of Vader that sets him apart as an original character with gravitas but his foundation is still basically that of the serial villain who ties poor Pauline to the railroad tracks each week and then looks flabbergasted when she is continually rescued.
     
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