Kenobi Obi-Wan Kenobi - Part 6 (Series Finale!!!) - Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)

Jedi does not seek immortality but inlightment. Its why the sith fair and Jedi lives on. Yoda's trial in the clone wars proves that. When he goes on his trials.

 

If only they would have been plot armored, i mean defenseless like vader, or they feigned defenseless. It was mishandled. obi wan just 15 mins b4 the fight said either vader or i is dying. We all know that couldnt happen, but a better separation should have happened.

 

It is literally the same. Immortality through enlightenment. The irony is that the Sith do not want to die and want to live forever, they never let go of anything, and in the end die for good, having lived in vain, but the Jedi let go of their life and ego and achieve immortality. That what Ben Kenobi meant by "If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine."

 

Ok but this is a rather awful rule to follow, isn't it? If someone is going to hurt many people, getting rid of him is the moral choice.

 

You did not respond to what I said though. And I am not sure I understand the argument you are trying to make.

No, it's not the same. The Jedi had accepted death as a natural part of life for thousands of years before Qui Gon discovered the path to immortality. And even this immortality, includes death as a necessary stage, and the acceptance of death. Qui Gon literally died. And then became one with The Force. No longer being part of the Living Force, but existing in the Cosmic Force. But yes, it is ironic that the Jedi achieve immortality while not seeking for it desperately.

This is never a black and white topic. Are you in favor of the death penalty? Who gets to decide whether what you said is the moral choice or not? And who get to swing the axe? And who gets to decide who swings the axe?

 

I mean I probably would have taken him out but I’m not a magic space wizard who has the potential to fall to the dark side. The rule is there for a reason and has been established within the series with multiple examples.

 

“Destroy the Sith, we must.” - Yoda

“I can’t kill me own father.”
“Then the Empire has already won. You were our last hope.” -Luke and Obi-Wan

“Have you come to destroy me, Obi-Wan?”
“I will do what I must.” -Darth Vader and Obi-Wan, OWK

“Whether he dies or I do, this ends today” -Obi-Wan

“I didn’t comes to lead the Sith. I’ve come to end them.” -Rey

“Only a Sith deals in absolutes. I will do what I must.”(Draws weapon) - Obi-Wan

“You won’t get away this time, Dooku.” (Obi-Wan and Anakin draw weapons and attack) - Obi-Wan

“We’ll take him together.” -Obi-Wan

There is the rule that a Jedi cannot kill in anger, or else one may fall to the Dark Side. And perhaps they aren’t supposed to attack, but in a couple instances they do.

But as a matter of practicality they are confronting opponents with the anticipation that killing them may be likely.

On multiple occasions, the Jedi make reference to destroying the Sith. When Luke objects to the idea of killing Vader, Obi-Wan downplays his humanity, just as Yoda downplayed Vader’s humanity in ROTS against Obi-Wan’s objections against killing Anakin.

When it comes to Obi-Wan Kenobi, Obi-Wan declares it will end today. He has Vader at a disadvantage, but then he just takes pity and walks away.

Vader was having trouble breathing and could barely stand, and yet he wanted to continue to fight.

How does one destroy the Sith? Either through compassion or killing them. I’m paraphrasing Lucas, but he had said something about how the Jedi were to show compassion towards everyone, even the Sith. Vader was defeated by compassion, while Palpatine was killed.

Luke showed compassion towards Vader, and Ahsoka tried to. In both cases they were willing to defend themselves as long as Vader attacked them, but they weren’t going anywhere until there was a resolution whatever that may be. Luke made repeated appeals to Anakin, while Ahsoka said she would not leave him again.

Obi-Wan just had enough and left. We had seen that before. Obi-Wan was not willing to see things through to a conclusion.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

@TaradosGon
Don't forget Mace Windu. He was insisting that Palpatine needs to be killed, while they still could.

 

Mace Windu was wrong and no more a jedi who follow the jedi code. Mace at that momment was no different from Dooku.

 

Was this the Irish version?

 

The elephant in the room of ROTJ is that the events in the throne room appear to be fairly uncorrelated with respect to the space battle outside, which practically seems to be what really matters for the fate of the galaxy. It's hard to speculate about alternative scenarios, like Luke getting killed by Palpatine while the rebels are winning the war anyway. That said, in ROTJ they were in the endgame, so it didn't really matter, but if we rather consider a situation in which Vader left alive could still bring death and despair -and we know he did after the events of OWK- then killing him off sounds a way more reasonable choice to make.

 

We need to track down the 3 users that gave the Finale a big fat 1 and close their accounts .lol.

 

ROTJ, in hindsight, is an odd movie in how it portrays the climax in relationship to the rest of the saga.

As a kid, I felt I was led to believe 100% that if Luke killed either Vader or even Palpatine, he’d fall to the Dark Side.

But then you have Anakin that kills a groups of Tuskens and murders Dooku, and still hasn’t fallen to the Dark Side, until later in ROTS when he succumbs to promises of saving his wife. It was the fear of loss, not killing in anger that did him in. The killing in anger just showed that he was capable of evil, even though every time he showed regret afterwards. I believe in TCW he impaled someone from behind and Obi-Wan just shook his head.

You have Mace Windu who was going to kill Palpatine . And whether that was right or wrong, against the code or not, I don’t think we were ever intended to believe he was going to fall. He was making a practical decision and violating the rules, yes. But he wasn’t borderline Sith.

In TLJ, in the throne room, which strongly mirrored ROTJ, Rey is trying to kill Snoke in exactly the same way that Luke wasn’t supposed to kill Palpatine, and yet Snoke comments that she has the fiery spirit of a Jedi.

So I would argue that had Obi-Wan straight up killed a weak Vader, there would be no negative consequence beyond guilt, which should be gone anyway, considering their final words.

In ESB, Palpatine refers to Luke as the son of Skywalker, talking about Anakin like he was a separate person. But from “I am your father” on, that method of referencing Anakin stops. It’s all:

“You like your father are now mine.”

“My son is with them.”

“By now you must know your father can never be turned from the Dark Side”

“It is pointless to resist, my son.”

There’s none of that “Anakin Skywalker is dead” or “your father was killed.”

I feel like ESB used the third person as a matter of practicality to hide the fact that it would later be revealed that Vader is Luke’s father, and once that was revealed, it went to more plain speech (at least among the villains).

While the TV shows, like Rebels and OWK really ran with the third person references to Anakin. Which to me is a little goofy. Even in ANH, Vader tells Tarkin that Obi-Wan was his old master.

He’s not differentiating between his past as a Jedi and his present as a Sith.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

But it’s not about reasonable choices, it’s about moral choices.

 

No, it’s not the same at all. Immortality implies your physical body never dying - and to seek it means to seek to remain permanently in the physical world. Jedi accept the opposite - detachment from the physical world, and the enlightenment that comes with that. And, of course, Jedi seek enlightenment not so they can stick around forever, but to more fully be one with the force.

The Jedi categorically do not seek immortality. The Sith do.

Accepted meanings of words can’t just be changed to suit your faulty arguments.

 

You are forgetting Return of the Jedi:
Luke : I have accepted that you were once a Jedi named Anakin Skywalker, my father.
Darth Vader : [angrily] That name no longer has any meaning for me!
Luke : It is name of your true self, you've only forgotten.
For Anakin, denying Anakin and embracing Vader is more of a coping mechanism for not taking responsibility for his own actions, for not recognizing his shame and guilt.
(which is why I also think Vader would never ever say something like "I am not your failure, Obi-Wan". Vader is too weak and too much of a coward to accept the blame and responsibility, and not to Obi-Wan of all people, who is the second person he hates the most after himself. Unless it was a twisted way of taking the win over Anakin Skywalker for himself, showing it as a twisted achievement, not his failure, but his success in killing Anakin Skywalker)

No one but Anakin and Obi-Wan is playing this Vader and Anakin are separate people. Ahsoka never did that after she indeed saw it was Anakin there under the mask. It was Anakin who called out to her, and it was Anakin she was not going to abandon, and it was Anakin who said with Matt Lanter's voice: "Then you will die."

Go watch The Clone Wars. Yoda and Obi-Wan were specifically seeking immortality by the guidance of Qui-Gon Jinn. And it was specifically called "a gift of immortality" by the Force Priestesses. I'd rather stick with definitions and meanings presented in the works of George Lucas, than whatever leaps you are trying to make to defend this show.

 

My point is that Palpatine refers to Luke as the son of Skywalker in ESB. Then I believe in Rebels he refers to Ahsoka as Skywalker’s apprentice.

Him doing it once in ESB to conceal the later reveal is one thing. To make it a pattern where The Sith refer to Anakin as a completely different person then creates a weird situation when by ROTJ Vader is referring to Luke as his son in Palpatine’s presence.

If Palpatine is so hellbent on getting Vader to overcome his past, then it’s odd that Vader is allowed to so openly refer to Luke as his son (as opposed to something like “your father is gone, I killed him!”) and Palpatine too also follows suit by directly referencing a relationship between Vader and Luke.

If Vader’s past is such a threat to him, I would think Palpatine wouldn’t want Vader making any kind of family linkage to the son he had with Padme.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

I think the point is that by this time in the story Luke’s presence has begun wearing down Vader’s wall to Anakin more than he or the Emperor first thought.

Fortunately for Luke, Vader convinces Palpatine that he can turn Luke to the dark side. If he had not made that commitment or failed to convince the Emperor of its likelihood it’s entirely possible the Emperor takes a different approach. It’s only that Palpatine believed he was totally in control of a situation more complex than he initially imagined that his first body is killed and he’s left clinging to clone vessels and medical machines for the next 20 years.

Palpatine was arrogant because of how well he’d turned Anakin and likely believed he’d be able to convert Luke or any other future Skywalkers to his side if ever others came knocking.

And had it not been for his own underestimating of his non-force sensitive clone son — who he was disappointed by — fathering a child whose force abilities skipped a generation, that Ben Solo would have remained on the dark side and worked with Snoke longer until Palpatine’s able to find a suitable vessel that can withstand his dark side powers without rapid decay and put Snoke out to pasture. Once that happened it likely would have been Palpatine and a Skywalker ruling together for a very long time.

 

Could you imagine how Return of the Jedi would have turned out if Luke had incapacitated Vader as he did then left?

I think that is exactly what it is. He resents Obi-Wan seeing him as the pitiful remains of Anakin due to his failure. He sees himself as an ascended being, with pitiful Anakin being below him. Obi-Wan's pity is infuriating to him.

 

If not for Palpatine being there and the imminent threat to the Death Star itself I think Luke likely would have tried to drag Vader out of there to talk further. There’s no such pressure for the circumstances here and Kenobi is even less convinced that he, himself, can get through to the Anakin who remains within Vader than Luke is. The whole point of the story arch here is actually the reverse of Luke’s to some extent in that we want to get Kenobi to a place where he says the things he later does to Luke about Vader in the OT from having faced him more recently in the suit. It doesn’t change the fact that Kenobi himself knows he can’t kill Vader due to that small aspect of Anakin still within. He just believes he’s tried and can’t get through to him as a former mentor.

 

Yeah go ahead and close my account because I hated OWK. Makes sense.

I will give this horrible show props for bringing about something really great though. Bonding with my daughter Jaina. It’s been a treat in that this show has gotten her to watch the movies with me for her 1st time which is awesomesause. We have gone Ep 1-3 and are now on RO.

 

I am pretty sure he was joking and exaggerating just for the sake of joking
I don't know, him exaggerating with that joke I understand easier than someone rating this with a 1 out of 10.
Big "like" and heart for bonding with the daughter who also has an awesome name though!

 

Right. Obi-Wan needs to let go of Anakin (and his feeling of guilt/ responsibility towards him) in order to move forward with his hero’s journey, while Luke needs to do the opposite. I thought that concept was almost perfectly executed in the finale.

 

Of course it was a joke hence the .lol. but to give Obi-wan a 1 / 10 is beyond my comprehension