Mini Series Obi-Wan Kenobi - Part 6 (Series Finale!!!) - Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)

Either have Vader create a Force blast that levels the terrain, like he did earlier when he left Obi-Wan in that hole, and Obi-Wan escapes, or Obi-Wan senses Luke is in trouble and he leaves Vader. Or a vision of the future.
Do we have a satisfying explanation for "That boy is our last hope?" "No. There is another"? The other he spoke of, is your twin sister." Nevermind that if Luke didn't leave in ESB, Leia would have been lost?

 

But thats not once said anywhere. They don't state any curiosity or question towards these children.

But then you also have to take into consideration that Anakin was thought to be the chosen one for specific reasons like his midi count and born from no father. And the question of whether he was the chosen one was always uncertain by the Jedi. And probably seriously questioned after Anakin turned to the dark side. There is no reason for anyone to still believe he could be the chosen one after that.

While the children holding some special reason to be watched really requires more reasoning. And i don't think the Obi Wan show quite helped add to that reasoning. If anything it made it abit more questionable.

I was actually expecting the Qui-Gon cameo to get abit into the whole Luke thing. But it didn't really.

 

But you contradict yourself here. Does Obi-Wan’s action feel nice, or is it fraught and controversial? I’d argue it’s clearly the latter. The point I’m making is that his decision not to kill Anakin has very complicated moral underpinnings and dangerous consequences. It doesn’t feel nice, in my view, and it doesn’t feel horrific either. It feels like a morally complex resolution.

The Hollywood trope cop out, on the other hand, would have been for them to be separated by some convenient event or something, like an earthquake creating a chasm between them (as we saw between Rey and Kylo at the end of TFA). Chow, instead, decided to go with something far less convenient. And the fact that a bunch of fans are condemning Obi-Wan is part of the proof of that. Mercy for horrible people who may continue to commit horrible acts is not popular.

 

The prophecy of the Chosen One is just that… a prophecy. And I think Lucas purposely designed it to be opaque and open to interpretation (as many prophecies are). That the Jedi cling onto it, and later feel that they may have misinterpreted it, is (IMO) designed to reflect the Jedi Order being out of kilter. We, the audience, know that Anakin is the chosen one (as we have all the information as to what *will* happen) but the Jedi are relying on their ‘faith’, which is the point I think I.e. were they true to their faith? Should they have treated Anakin differently etc?

I agree that Yoda and Obi-Wan (I’m sure) no longer believe Anakin is the Chosen One after he becomes Darth Vader (although we don’t really know exactly what insider information Yoda has from communing with Qui-Gon), so I think it’s reasonable to assume that Yoda/Obi-Wan believe that the prophecy was misread, and that Luke/Leia will be the ones to bring balance and restore the Jedi and Republic. This is exactly the sort of detail I wanted to see discussed/explained in the Obi-Wan show, and I do feel disappointed that the potential for all this philosophical/force discussion and illumination was dropped in favour of Reva and largely redundant action sequences. This of course isn’t to say that I didn’t like the show, I did enjoy it, but I thought it was extremely safe, and that it didn’t get anywhere near its potential for expanding the lore in those areas ripe for expansion e.g force ghosts, the prophecy etc.

 

From the other posts I wrote it's clarified, what I am saying is that the writers don't really handle the moral implications, and the scene is not devised to stimulate such a discussion. OW committing a terrible blunder is something we infer, but they don't put any accent over it on screen. They ignore the dilemma completely. The fact that we choose to discuss it is beside the point, since it's clear that the show doesn't care about it. Otherwise you'd see OW somehow tormented over sparing Vader, or you'd see some line of dialogue pointing it out. There is nothing, it's like the writers didn't even consider it an issue .

 

I think OWK’s conversation with Reva wherein he praises her for choosing mercy does indicate that that writers considered that a theme, but sure, it could’ve used a bit more exploration. Though I prefer light touch to overwrought, leaving the audience to interpret themselves (rather than an overbearing creator telling me how to process the thematic content).

 

Yeah, but in this case I think it was done poorly. From the scene it doesn't even look like OW took the time to consider his options. He just left. I believe we weren't even meant to have this conversation as viewers.

 

Like at the end of the book Dark Lord, where Qui-Gon instructs Obi-Wan to not tell Luke the truth about Vader until he completes his training.

 

Lucas came up with the the chosen one prophecy for the PT back when he was thinking the Star Wars saga was just going to be episodes I-VI, or "The Tragedy of Darth Vader." Anakin is a promising Jedi some believe to be the chosen one, he joins the Sith instead, but then ultimately ends up destroying the Sith bringing balance to the Force. At least I think that's what Lucas intended at that point in time.

Of course that all goes out the window when the ST brings back Sidious and has Rey destroy him for the final time.

 

Also, I really didn't see Obi Wan sparing Vader as mercy? Or I didn't see any indication that that was OWK's motivation. It seemed to be more of a revulsion to Vader, like killing Vader would have just been descending to his level and that Vader was so broken, evil, and miserable, that he wasn't even worth killing for OWK, not worth corrupting his soul over. Which makes sense on a character level absolutely, but on a plot level feels messy because, as you said, the show doesn't seem interested in the broader moral implications of this choice.

 

Yes, this is a good point. The scene felt to me like in Specter when Bond doesn't kill the pathetic villain and says "I have better things to do". OW simply leaves after mockingly calling him "Darth".
There is one problem though: this kind of scenes only work if the villain is completely powerless. Here it's pretty odd since it's obvious that Vader will be free to go back to slaughtering people at will, so this attitude like "I don't even care anymore" is not convincing from OW.

 

Something I just thought of: WE the audience know what Vader goes on to do, but the show had him so beaten with his suit damaged that perhaps Obi-Wan in the heat of the moment didn't stop to think that Vader would come roaring back and slaughter more.

Also, I have to rewatch, but did he sense Luke was/would be (force-shadowing) in trouble and hurried off? I know the end of ROTS is not universally accepted as that Obi-Wan left Anakin on Mustafar because he sensed Palps coming and wanted to get Padme (and himself, presumably) off planet, but with that possibility it would also be one of those parallel situations that Star Wars loves.

 

In some ways I think SW struggles with "THE" tone of the SW universe.

Remember in the beginning of ROGUE ONE, when Andor shoots his informant, who was injured and likely to be captured, and possibly could lead to both he and Andor being captured if Andor tried to help him? For a lot of us, I suspect that was a strong signal that this was a SW movie with a very different tone than the OT and the Prequels. It wasn't that his decision was unjustifiable, or that what he did was "evil" or even amoral. It was a potentially justifiable but AWFUL choice in a brutally awful situation.

Or all the ongoing discussion of Han "shooting first". Granted, we didn't have the internet back when ANH came out, but I don't recall any uproar over Han shooting first. It seemed pretty clear Greedo was going to either kill him or lead to him being killed. It DID mark Han as a certain kind of guy - different for sure from the idealistic Luke. But later GL had second thoughts and hedged on Han shooting first, and I think it was precisely because GL had second thoughts about the tone of that moment, the "cold pragmatism" of it.

In ESB, there is discussion on whether Luke should try to rescue Han and Leia. Obi-Wan and Yoda both try to dissuade him, feeling this is clearly a trap, and basically arguing that if he really values what Leia and Han are fighting for and risking their lives for, he won't risk handing himself over to Vader (or being killed by Vader) by making a raw emotional decision versus a practical one. Luke disregards them. The movie remains pretty neutral on who is right here although I think many SW fans feel Luke makes the "heroic" choice and we're never directly dissuaded from thinking so. It's interesting because I would argue that NOT going, not walking into that trap, would have been a much more Andor-like, Solo-Shoots-First type decision, while charging in is much more in the vein of the more idealistic tone of much of the rest of the SW, and certainly OT, movies.

My point here is that you can make a very good practical, pragmatic case for Obi-Wan killing Vader. Vader isn't just some random guy, he is a HUGE asset for the evil Empire. He may not be irreplaceable to Palpatine but you have to believe losing Vader would at least be a significant setback. From a pragmatic point of view, no reason to let him live.

BUT...

The way they scripted it, wouldn't it have been very cold for Obi-Wan to kill a wheezing, staggered, 3/4 beaten Vader? And I do think the scripting is significant. If Vader and Obi-Wan were exchanging furious attacks and the attack that split Vader's mask had instead cleaved his head in two that would have been one thing - a heat of combat death. But here, how would it have FELT? Cold, even worse in some ways than an execution? (I feel the same way about ROTS, the way it is scripted...some folks wanted Obi-Wan to walk over to near limbless, burning Vader and deliver the coup de grace, either to put him out of his misery or to finish the job). I think that tone would have been problematic.

Given that Vader MUST survive - he just has to for the movies to work, right? - I would have preferred the writers to avoid creating the dilemma. Easy enough - have a bunch of heavily armed troopers show up and barrage Obi-Wan, even if Vader angrily said not to (he wants to continue!), and drive him off (or even appear to kill him).

Guess what I am saying is that, in some ways, the ST universe always struggles with what tone is appropriate for a series that is basically about warfare and rebellion and violence in the pursuit of trying to free an entire galaxy, but which is also about heroism and idealism.

 

I’m just annoyed that the story doesn’t really get into it (or much of anything).

We get that one line from Reva an episode prior, about whether or not Obiwan would really want Anakin dead, but it’s nowhere near enough. That’s the juicy stuff I thought the series would deal with.

 

One of my few criticisms of this miniseries is that Bail Organa looks older in this than he does in Rogue One. I understand that Jimmy Smits ages like we all do. But it was a little distracting. Even so, I'm willing to forgive it because I liked the story overall.

Some people are critiquing Obi-Wan for not killing Vader at the end of that fight. But I believe it's because Obi-Wan didn't have it in him to kill someone who could not fight back. And part of it is because he wanted to remove himself from the situation. He was apologizing to Anakin in hopes of trying to see if Anakin was in there, but he concluded that Anakin was Darth Vader and he couldn't do anything to change him. It was a pretty creepy situation because Vader was almost manic when he was beaten and yet threatening Obi-Wan. That smile was frightening. It goes back to why I agree with those who say that Anakin/Vader has borderline personality disorder. I've met people with that disorder and they become impulsive and obsessed like that. Granted, I've met a couple of people recently with BPD who have more control over it, but I met this one cis woman back in 2015, and after getting to know her, I could believe that Vader had BPD. In real life, Vader would need some serious therapy in an institution.

Overall, this miniseries felt like an old Expanded Universe graphic novel, and I'm glad they produced it. Is Lucasfilm going to release this on DVD/Blu-ray? Or are they just going to have this on Disney+?

 

Okay, re: Obi Wan not killing Vader. I don't know if anyone else brought this up yet, but there was a very telling interaction in the previous episode. In the episode 5 flashbacks we've all been looking at them in the context of what they reveal about Anakin and his weaknesses. But they are also very revealing about Obi-Wan as well. I was just rewatching it, because I am insane, and I found this interaction interesting:

Obi-Wan: You're too aggressive, Anakin. Be mindful. A Jedi's goal is to defend life. Not take it.

Anakin: Mercy doesn't defeat an enemy, Master.

It could almost be seen as a foreshadowing of what;'s to come. Obi-Wan will show mercy, but indeed, it will to the galaxy's detriment.

Anyway, thought that was interesting.

 

I guess it goes to show how to read motivation and action - through characters and their relativity to one another.

Vader is right - about Obi-Wan's mercy - but ultimately wrong, and transformed - by Luke's.

 

I think there’s a larger disconnect for me on how the Jedi are portrayed trilogy to trilogy.

I can picture film about bandits attacking a buddhist temple and warrior monks fighting to defend it. Taking life only insofar as to defend themselves but otherwise not pursuing a routing enemy. Will the enemy return? Maybe. And if they do, the monks will fight again.

Or a tale of a noble ronin who comes upon a town whose samurai lord has taken hostages to ensure obedience. The ronin goes before the lord and proclaims his defiance and waits for the samurai to inevitably attack. Maybe the Samurai is killed in self defense or maybe he’s left crippled and the ronin leaves with a warning. Does the Samurai’s lord eventually get involved to put down this insubordination? Dunno. Such films tend not to get sequels like Star Wars does.

I feel like this kind of archetype was what Lucas was going for in the OT. A Jedi defiantly standing up to evil, but not attacking it. Not only should a Jedi not kill in anger, but we’re led to believe that not only is doing so against the rules, but it will inevitably cause Luke to become a monster. Luke will stand against the Sith and he will use his saber to block attacks against him, but he won’t attack (he slips up twice and it is shown that this is bad).

And I feel like OWK was along these lines too. Obi-Wan realizes that he can lure Vader away from the rebels and Leia. He confronts Vader. He defeats him. It’s clear that Vader is no longer a threat at that moment and the rebels got away. So Obi-Wan accomplished his goal.

But then you throw the prequels and sequels into the mix.

You have Mace Windu putting his blade to Jango’s neck. You have Coleman Trebor going after Dooku, blade raised. You have Obi-Wan and Anakin approaching an “unarmed” Dooku with their lightsabers at the ready and Obi-Wan talks about taking him together. And it gets repeated again in RotS.

These are not spiritual heroes standing defiantly in front of evil and waiting to defend themselves. They are space cops in service to a Senate. When Padme falls out of the transport she’s expendable to the mission and going back for her is worthy of expulsion.

And Anakin kills tusken women and children, a Mandalorian (in TCW), and Dooku. And he never falls to the Dark Side. Even when he slices Mace’s hand off, he immediately shows regret. It’s only when he takes the act of pledging himself to the Sith that he seems to go completely off the rails.

In TLJ, Rey is trying with all of her might to kill Snoke, and Snoke says she’s showing the spirit of a true Jedi. And then in RoS it’s abundantly clear that she’s there to kill Palpatine not just to defy him.

There’s this ideal in how the Jedi are portrayed in 4-6 that for me is inconsistent with 1-3 and 7-9.

If this miniseries was instead some self contained story about Quinlan Vos who has given up on the Republic and only cares about his friends and he’s the ronin that humiliates the evil samurai and walks away, ok great.

But this is Obi-Wan. The guy that along with Yoda set out to destroy the Sith in RotS, and has this long term plan to keep the Jedi going with Luke. And he has a Sith Lord beaten. This should be space cop Obi-Wan, not ronin Obi-Wan. There is a larger mission for the sake of the Galaxy. The Sith ruled the Galaxy before. They were beaten before, presumably in the last full scale war that Sio Bibble mentioned. Now they are back. Obi-Wan has beaten one of them. And he walks away.

Ok. Maybe he just couldn’t bring himself to do it. But rather than spend the rest of the episode treating this like it’s in any part a failure. The rest of the episode is Obi-Wan helping rehabilitate Reva, Obi-Wan traveling to Alderaan in person without any fear of the danger to himself or Bail, putting on very white robes to symbolically show his spiritual transformation, getting introduced to Luke, and the he’s finally able to see Qui-Gon.

It’s just treated as an absolute victory on all accounts. Even a line between Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon where he tells Qui-Gon that he couldn’t bring himself to do it and that it might have been the last chance to stop Vader, with Qui-Gon comforting him would have been appreciated.

It’s just a weird ending since we already know what comes later. It’s just weird to end on such a weird feel good string of moments in the middle of the Dark Times.

Ending on hope is important. RotS and R1 both did that despite their very bleak climaxes. But this Instead felt like a montage of an ending that might as well have “I’m Walking on Sunshine” playing in the background


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Plus, anyone who's seen No Time to Die knows that Bond's sparing of Blofeld was the wroooong thing to do.

 

You don’t act mercifully due to a certainty that the result will be positive. You act mercifully because it’s morally the right thing to do. Bilbo’s decision to show Gollum mercy was almost catastrophic for the entirety of Middle Earth, for example. Though in the end, that merciful act proved prescient in its implications, with Gollum accidentally causing the destruction of the Ring. Just as Vader ultimately causes the death of the Emperor. That is until he returned somehow.

It also wasn’t at all obvious that Vader would go on to kill people. He was severely wounded, gasping for breath, and totally unable to attack Obi-Wan. Just because we know what he ends up doing doesn’t mean Obi-Wan did.

 

Exactly, that's a great analogy. Also, I think that what Obi-Wan said to Reva at the end of the episode also applies to him. "You haven't failed them. By showing mercy, you have given them peace. You have honored them". I think Obi-Wan was speaking about his confrontation with Anakin as much as about the whole Reva situation And that's why he is also free now.

 

There is a profound difference between Gollum and Vader. The former is a wretch who, though certainly capable of violence and even murder, is a victim of the Ring and deserving of pity and compassion. The latter is a sadistic war criminal who has made a hellscape of the galaxy for a decade. Obi-Wan had an absolute moral obligation to extinguish this evil when he had the chance. The showrunners' decision to retreat from this, as if the Kenobi-Vader dance were merely some sort of fraternal squabble, rather than a seismic contest between Light and Dark, republicanism and totalitarianism, boggles my mind.

Kudos to the Patterson Cut for salvaging this logistical/ethical lapse.

 

So I take it you have not seen Return of the Jedi, wherein Luke treats Vader with mercy, throwing down his lightsaber and refusing to extinguish that evil when he had the chance?

The differences between the Gollum and Vader examples are not significant. Both have committed horrific deeds, and both are individuals who are still treated as pitiable by the morally upstanding characters in the respective stories they appear in.

Compassion and mercy are at the heart of Star Wars. Whether you like that or not is a different story, however.