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"Obi-Wan once thought as you do"

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by Darth_Turkey, Dec 30, 2005.

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  1. Anagorn

    Anagorn Jedi Youngling star 3

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    Jul 3, 2003
    Anakin was in the kind of spell that a person who has had
    far too much to drink and is so far gone that he or she
    can´t think straight and refuses to admit that they
    infact are wrong when they´ve done something
    really stupid that they should regret and
    apologize for.
    Even so dizzed up from drugs or alcohol that they
    believe that they are right regardless of what
    the circumstances are in the situation.
    THAT is the power of the dark side!
     
  2. Hou-nom Jek

    Hou-nom Jek Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Apr 21, 2000
    It goes like this: "Obi-Wan once thought as you do. (pauses) You don't know the power of the darkside, I must obey my Master."

    You are only taking part of the line. You can analyze bits and pieces. If you are going to read into it, read it as a whole.

    In RotS, Obi-wan was trying to tell Anakin the the dark side is the wrong way to go.

    In RotJ, Luke is trying to tell Vader he went the wrong way and has to come back.

    Both Obi-wan and Luke thought the dark side was the wrong way, it was evil. Anivader felt the opposite. It was more powerful and it brought security to the galaxy. Tyranical security it brought it. It is also the gateway to how he could have saved his wife. And I believe even after her iminent death, Vader is still looking for that power. It won't help him now, but discovering that the dark side does hold the ability to save life, and it will give Vader closure for the decision he made to turn to the dark side.

    It's not a matter of them both thinking that Anakin could be turned. It's that they both think that the dark side is the wrong way, and Vader is basically saying "Look, you don't understand. The dark side can give me the power I need to save lives, so in my view it is the right way to go."

    That's why Obi once thought as Luke does. They are both trying to tell Vader he went the wrong way, and Vader still believes he made the right choice.
     
  3. TomPiltoff

    TomPiltoff Jedi Youngling star 2

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    Apr 7, 2005
    A little off-topic perhaps, but I've heard people suggest that in future releases of the OT the line should be changed to "Your mother once thought as you do."
     
  4. darthOB1

    darthOB1 Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 22, 2000
    If thats the case you need to analyse Lukes line before in context of Vaders answer.

    "I know theres good in you, the emperor hasn't driven from you fully, I've got to take you back to the good side" Or whatever he said. He is clearly talking about the good left in Vader, not that he made a bad choice.

    Even with that I agree with what you said, just not how you get there! :)
     
  5. Anagorn

    Anagorn Jedi Youngling star 3

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    Jul 3, 2003
    That´s a good point actually!
    It would indeed work perhaps even better!
     
  6. Hou-nom Jek

    Hou-nom Jek Jedi Youngling star 3

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    Apr 21, 2000
    Nah, see even with Luke's line I'll still go with my point.

    Luke says "I've come to bring you back to the good side".

    Vader says "Obi once thought... You don't know the power of the dark side".

    Luke is saying "come back to the good". Vader is saying, "you don't know the power of the dark, from my point of view, this is the good side. You don't understand, I gotta obey Palps so I can learn how to save lives".

    And still Vader's response is not about the turn, it's about Obi and Luke's opinion of good and evil, and saying Vader picked the wrong side.

     
  7. r8hitman

    r8hitman Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 30, 2004
    Any thoughts?

    Yeah I have some thoughts.....my thoughts are that I had a thread with the EXACT same title, with damn near the exact same subject over a year ago.:p

    I believe it was locked or something, but I kept asking everyone WHEN would Obi try to turn Anakin back and everyone kept saying that it was during their duel, but I didnt see it.:confused:
     
  8. RolandofGilead

    RolandofGilead Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jan 17, 2001
    "You don't know the power of the Dark Side. I must obey my Master"

    I thought he was saying that he's trapped. He knows he's evil now but he's too far gone. He has to stay where he is because there's nothing to go back to, Palpatine is all he has.
     
  9. Anagorn

    Anagorn Jedi Youngling star 3

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    Jul 3, 2003
    That´s indeed true RolandofGilead.
    But he was wrong of course in the end.
     
  10. Get_in_Gear

    Get_in_Gear Jedi Youngling star 5

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    Nov 29, 2004
    Personally, I think it would be terrible for Vader to make any reference to Padmé - it would be too painful. He just woudln't go there.
    I just can't see it making sense, I mean what would Luke's reaction to this be?
    "Your mother once thought as you do."
    "My... my... mother...?"

    I can't see where the conversation would go from there.
    Obi represents faulire to Vader - that is his comfort zone.
    That is part of what keeps him going - in his mind Obi represents all that the Jedi were, so it is convenient for Vader to view him as reprasentative of failure so that he cannot see his own shortcomings.
    "Obi-Wan once thought as you do (and look what happened to him - that old man was wrong, and he is history...)"
    I don't see what bringing up Padmé proves - from either Vader or Luke's point of view. It would just be messy - no way should that line ever be changed...
     
  11. PADMELUVA

    PADMELUVA Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2004
    I believe it was locked or something, but I kept asking everyone WHEN would Obi try to turn Anakin back and everyone kept saying that it was during their duel, but I didnt see it.
    perhaps your taking things too litteral...and you dont consider their little chat before they duel as any indication of obi wan's intentions? obi wan is at least trying to reason with anakin...and he reluctantly says "i shall do what i must"

    vader/anakin probably meant "obi wan once though and trusted for me to do the right thing as you do" which is true.
     
  12. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    Obi-wan once believed that the Dark Side is wrong. That the Emperor is evil and corrupt. That what he did could be undone, which is why Obi-wan doesn't move to attack right away. Instead, he tries to talk sense into Anakin. Vader knows that Obi-wan was trying to turn him back, trying to help him. Just as Luke is doing now. But Vader thinks that it's foolish to abandon power. That it's all but impossible. That Luke, like Obi-wan, fears the Dark Side and thus are willing to turn away from it.

    Anakin: "Don't lecture me, Obi-wan. I've seen through the lies of the Jedi. I do not fear the Dark Side, as you do."
     
  13. voodoopuuduu

    voodoopuuduu Jedi Knight star 5

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    Mar 22, 2004
    "Your mother once thought as you do."
    "My... my... mother...?"


    Vader: Your mother once thought as you do.

    Luke: My... my... mother...?

    Vader: Yes, she was very beautiful. Kind, but...sad. :p :p
     
  14. QuiGonHrafn

    QuiGonHrafn Jedi Grand Master star 3

    Registered:
    May 25, 2002
    Correct me if I'm wrong but where does it say Obi Wan tried to turn him back. He says he once thought like that. Maybe he sensed it through the force. Or maybe Vader is just saying it to mess up Luke (throw in Obi Wan's name. He knows what he meant to Luke) and I think the "then you are lost" clearly states that he has been trying to avoid killing Anakin because he never wanted to. He believed there was good in him until that moment. Enough explantation for me. And don't even joke about "your mother once thought as you do" etc. A) it is sutpid b) how would Vader know what she said. He wasn't there.
     
  15. voodoopuuduu

    voodoopuuduu Jedi Knight star 5

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    Mar 22, 2004
    And don't even joke about "your mother once thought as you do" etc. A) it is sutpid

    I agree. Of course its sutpid. :p :p
     
  16. MystikalMaceWindu

    MystikalMaceWindu Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2005
    I think other people have touched on it. Obi-Wan did go there to confront Anakin (he did after all kill all those Jedi, and wasn't exactly some innocent...), and so Obi-Wan went there with an aggression of sorts, and then Anakin flew into a rage, choking Padme. He was trying to turn him back, but was speaking firmly. And Anakin proved himself to be beyond persuasion.... Obi-Wan gave him more than one chance, and Obi-Wan could have easily killed him if he had so wanted.
     
  17. Darth-sennin

    Darth-sennin Jedi Youngling star 3

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    May 24, 2001
    But that's exactly what Obi-wan did in that moment. He just did it in a really "Obi-wan" kind of way. Obi-wan almost never loses his composure, and he values duty above all else. That means that he is a) not going to start crying and pleading for Anakin to do the right thing, and b) in his mind, the best way to turn Anakin is to remind him of his principles. Obi-wan lectures Anakin on democracy because in his uptight brain, that should be enough to show Anakin the error of his ways. It's true that Obi-wan does not try very hard to turn Anakin, but the line is not "Obi-wan tried to do what you are doing", it's "Obi-wan once thought as you do." In other words, Obi-wan thought Anakin had a chance, had a conversation with him, and decided to "do what I must". If you remember, when facing Dooku, Obi-wan only tells Dooku that he won't get away, and when he fights Maul, they don't say anything at all. They just jump into the fight. Obi-wan gives Anakin the opportunity to explain himself, this is a curtesy that is not extended to any other sith lord. When Anakin proves that he's lost it, Obi-wan shifts into sith killing mode.

    In summation, "Only a Sith deals in absolutes, I will do what I must." = Yoda was right about you being evil (I was wrong about you being good), I have to kill you now.
     
  18. brook_33

    brook_33 Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Dec 30, 2003
    Ha ha, i can't recall obi-wan thinking that way.
     
  19. Darth_Turkey

    Darth_Turkey Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Sep 5, 2004
    I agree in part, but i just feel that Obi-wan says too little too late. He expresses his true feelings for Anakin after the duel, where as maybe if he'd said all this before the duel it would have been more powerful and more emotional, would have made sence of the "Obi-wan once thought as you do" line, and would also made Obi-wan seem much more unwilling to fight and much more compassionate (compassion being essential to a Jedi's life) rather than a cold, lecturing Master.
     
  20. DINVADER_RETURNS

    DINVADER_RETURNS Jedi Youngling star 3

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    Mar 10, 2003
    Seriously though, this was a vague line in ROTJ, easily implying that Obi-Wan tried to get Vader to see the wrong of his ways just as Luke was doing, that is all. How could I possibly be wrong on this? Luke and Obi-Wan did not have to say the exact same words for Vader to have thought they were thinking similar.
     
  21. Darth_Turkey

    Darth_Turkey Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Sep 5, 2004
    I agree, they dont have to say the same things, and it was one line. But it's deffinately a significant line. Luke is trying to turn Vader back from the darkside, asking his father to feel the good again, a good Luke can sence. Vader then comments that Obi-wan once thought like Luke does.

    What i'm pointing out is that i dont think ROTS gave Obi-wan the chance to show this. It does'nt seem Obi-wan once thought like Luke at all. He does'nt express that there is still good in Luke in anyway, be it in words or any other way. I'm not suggesting Obi-wan should have used the same lines at all, simply that he could have tried harder to reach the good person inside and bring him back to the surface, rather than scorning him and simply making him anger further. Something like . .

    "Anakin, you are to be a father. Let go of your anger. Fear will only destroy you and those you love and turn you into that which you swore to destroy"

    . . . would IMO have gone down better.
     
  22. Darth-sennin

    Darth-sennin Jedi Youngling star 3

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    May 24, 2001
    He allows Padme to talk to Anakin for a quite a while before he even shows his face. Also, when he comes out, he lectures Anakin. This shows that he does believe there is good in Anakin as there is no point in lecturing a Sith lord. Is Obi-wan compassionate, does he try to turn Anakin back? Not really, but that is not what the quote in question states.

    "There is still good in you."
    "Obi-wan once thought as you do."

    Obi-wan and Luke both thought/think that there is good in Anakin. Luke acts on his instincts and Obi-wan doesn't, that's the difference between these two characters, that's why Luke succeeds where Obi-wan fails.

    "Your instincts serve you well, but they could be made to serve the Emperer. Bury them deep inside."

    Obi-wan hides his feelings, and Luke acts on them. Obi-wan does not have to try to turn Anakin to the good side in order to prove Vader's statement right. We know Obi-wan feels this way because he allows Padme to talk to him and he believes that lecturing him on his jedi duties might smack some sense into him.

    It's possible that this would have worked better, but as the film is, Vader's line is true.

     
  23. Obi-Chron

    Obi-Chron Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 11, 2003
    Vaderkin truly believes that he made the right political decision -- the Republic was corrupt and engaged in civil war, and only Palpatine could bring order through strength. In ROTS Vaderkin professed to Padme that now he, with Padme by his side, would rule the galaxy (with strength). Strength maintains order.

    The Jedi order, in Vaderkin's eyes, allowed the Republic to fall. They were weak -- they could not see the dark side nor could they stop its power. They were wrong. They believed that the galaxy needed them to maintain order and not Palpatine's dark power. They tried to kill the maestro of galactic order, and he, Vaderkin, defended him with every fiber of his being.

    Obi-Wan once thought as Luke does, that the Jedi were good, and that Vaderkin was still good (according to the jedi definition) because he still had his Jedi training within him. In Vaderkin's eyes Obi-Wan was wrong, just as his mis-informed son was standing before him on the Endor moon. The dark side will maintain order. Luke will help to bring it either along side his father or with his master -- but bring it they will, ruthlessly, heartlessly and without mercy. That is the way of things, the order of power, the way of the universe.
     
  24. Commander_Bly05

    Commander_Bly05 Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Dec 3, 2005
    I believe this is true, although not in the same words Luke used in ROTJ, but Obi Wan tried to bring Anakin back before fighting him ...
     
  25. Darth_Turkey

    Darth_Turkey Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Sep 5, 2004
     
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